TriAxis Tubes and where to get them?

[bjoneill74]

TW,

here are some shots of the tube.
There's definitely something between the mica top seperator and the ring getter, but it runs inside the squared tabs of the plate whereas the partial piece from the tubes on tubemonger site look like they run outside of the squared tabs and such..
there may or may not be a difference..

again.. the shots are below.. thanks much for posting the chart explaining the parts of the tube.

http://www.gerbhost.net/~bjoneill/tewb/tewbone.jpg
http://www.gerbhost.net/~bjoneill/tewb/tewbtwo.jpg
http://www.gerbhost.net/~bjoneill/tewb/tewbthree.jpg
http://www.gerbhost.net/~bjoneill/tewb/tewbfour.jpg

the third and fourth shot show the top as good as I was able to get it.
I outlined what I think to be the partial bit in salmon again
the fourth is essentially the same without the outline.

Many thanks again.

Brian

 

[Timbre Wolf]

Okay, I know what you mean now, Brian. The 1959 versions had a different "paper clip" (for lack of a better reference term) mica shape. In 1960, or late 1959, Raytheon changed to the type that's inside the tabs, whereas prior to that it was outside the tabs as well. In my experience, that does not change the performance at all, and the two versions have the same character.

- T

 

[bjoneill74]

Okay, I know what you mean now, Brian. The 1959 versions had a different "paper clip" (for lack of a better reference term) mica shape. In 1960, or late 1959, Raytheon changed to the type that's inside the tabs, whereas prior to that it was outside the tabs as well. In my experience, that does not change the performance at all, and the two versions have the same character.

- T

I figured as much.. just wanted to make sure..
Still puzzled by why it says 12AX7 rather than 12AX7A...

I'd imagine that doesn't matter either.

Thanks again..
I can't wait to get them into the TriAxis which I'll not get to until Thursday as it's at a rehearsal spot.

Brian

 

[fatboy135]

About damaging the TA, there is very difficult to burn it with a bad tube swapping, before the TA burns maybe the tube will blow up, there is not any danger trying noval equivalent tubes, the only issue is that the tubes and the TA will not be working with the original design idea.
I think that boogie crew that designs the TA was thinking on 12ax7, replacing with a 5751 is a funny issue but replacing it by a low mu tube is a madness because the TA was not thinked to be used with that kind of tubes.
Anyway I´m agree with TW, the 5751 on V3 is a very common mod that everybody recomends.

 

[bjoneill74]

I tried out the new tubes last night.
The cleans (Ld 1) I really liked a lot. Some of the highs are gone from what they were, but it sounds so much better and has enough highs.
The highs are more pleasing overall as well.

The lead tones are definitely cool, a lot more in the way of mids, and they seem more focused to me.. It really somehow helps how clean/clear the effects sound. In the crunchier tones I noticed more focus as well. It sounds amazingly good, but has lost some of the low end oomph.. I'm not too concerned with it as I probably used too much low end in the past and really don't need excess with a keyboardist with bass pedals and a bassist with a 5 string bass.

Overall the sound is quite a bit different, but no where near as big of a change as the feel of playing. That's where these tubes had their biggest impact in my opinion. Volume and pickup selection changes are much more dramatic as well.

I've found that I'm going to have to start collecting tubes to have different sonic options for recording and such, but for live.. I'm going to need to find a bit of balance.. so far I'm really enjoying the sound of these two tubes.. I'll experiment with V3 - V5 later on..

All of my observations were done without touching any of the TriAxis settings.. no eq/gain/volume changes.

Brian

 

[Timbre Wolf]

Cool 8) Thanks for the update, Brian. I've also experienced the brilliant dynamics of this tube change, and will never go back to using tubes with less capacity for musical feel.

I know what you mean about the low-end oomph being reduced with the Raytheon. Lean and twangy! I find that I prefer this, as I often use eq to dial out a few dB of low frequencies (below ~85 Hz) anyway, to leave space for bass. In my youthfully exuberant days of yore, I would have wanted more low end (sounds cool when you're playing on your own), but in reality, that just muddied up the band mix. But if you want a bit more low end, and still want similar dynamics and early breakup, you may consider a '50s RCA black-plate 12AX7 - that'll do it, but with a shade less clarity/articulation. There are other 12AX7s that have a big bottom, but they'll not have as much clarity and frequency extension, and they'll break up a bit later (long gray-plate GE as first choice, and short gray-plate RCA 12AX7A as another with faaat lows). Of course, my favorite 12AX7 for low end is the Mullard long-plate (halo-getter), and I use it in V4 for Lead 2 modes; it has exceptional clarity, but does not break up nearly as early as the black-plate Raytheon or RCA.

Do you like the Rhythm modes now? I find the Mullard CV4024 has wonderfully viscous low-mids, solid lows, and airy highs that are not overly assertive. It pairs with the Raytheon synergistically, in my opinion.

I've got a Word document in which I've noted my impressions of over 40 preamp tube types and vintages, mostly NOS. They're my personal notes from several years of experimenting, and your experience may differ, but if you're interested, PM me with your email address, and I'll send you a copy.

- T

 

[bjoneill74]

sure.. I'd like to take a look..
I'll PM you.

I would like to start exploring V3-V5 and have gone back to the thread where you had gone through all of this in 2005.
I can't seem to find the RCA Black Plate or the Mullard ECC83 Halo Getter anywhere.

Is this the RCA 12BZ7 you had recommended in V5 and in the input of the 2:90?
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/product.asp?itemid=284

and is this the other RCA Black Plate you had recommended for V3?
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/product.asp?itemid=46&catid=40

that one is pricey.. but swingable..
I'm imagining that the mullard will be 2 - 3 times that cost if it can be found.

Brian

 

[Timbre Wolf]

sure.. I'd like to take a look..
I'll PM you.

I would like to start exploring V3-V5 and have gone back to the thread where you had gone through all of this in 2005.
I can't seem to find the RCA Black Plate or the Mullard ECC83 Halo Getter anywhere.

Is this the RCA 12BZ7 you had recommended in V5 and in the input of the 2:90?
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/product.asp?itemid=284

and is this the other RCA Black Plate you had recommended for V3?
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/product.asp?itemid=46&catid=40

that one is pricey.. but swingable..
I'm imagining that the mullard will be 2 - 3 times that cost if it can be found.

Brian

The RCA 3-mica 5751 at Upscale is the one I described. But here's the deal with Deal (Kevin Deal, that is, at Upscale): he's got a disclaimer form for you to sign before he'll sell you tubes for a guitar amp (but not if its for a HiFi system), and frankly, its a bit off-putting. He probably intends it to be off-putting, as we're not his preferred clientele, and he's probably been burned by guitarists purchasing power tubes from him in the past. I have bought one of these RCA 5751 from him, and he sells well-tested tubes. You'll be paying more for them there, than what I believe you need to. I'd recommend KCA, but Mike's tubes are very pricey too (well, tube dealers are pricey, nowadays). EBay has been a good source of bargains (for the patient bidder), in my experience, but I'm not worried about buying strictly new, NOS tubes - as long as the lightly-used tubes test strong (as new).

The 12BZ7 does not need to be RCA (Sylvania and GE are fine too), but I've found black-plates have better dynamics than the gray-plate version at Upscale. Plus, you shouldn't have to pay over $10 for one. Though its more risky, I've gotten black-plate 12BZ7 for $4-$10 from eBay. In my opinion, it is certainly worth the risk (risk of microphonic tube, or difficult seller, that is). From several unpalatable past experiences, I would strongly recommend avoiding the eBay tube seller lotsoftubes (a.k.a. vintagevalvesetc, genuinetubes, and surpluselectronics2003)

You may try asking Doug Preston at Doug's Tubes if he's got either of these. Same goes for Jim McShane. Both those guys offer stellar service and have great knowledge. I also recommend Michael Marx at SND Tubes (check out the long-plate Mullard 12AX7, used, but tests fine, no-logo for $40 - good deal!), and Brent Jesse.

I'll send the tube notes.

- T

 

[bjoneill74]

excellent.

I appreciate the info.
I've emailed a few of these tube dealers to see what they have.

Is this the correct RCA 3 Mica spacer 5751?
http://kcanostubes.com/content/estore_details.asp?category=97&product=50
that's a bit pricey, but I'd almost rather do that than deal with ebay and such..

it's too bad that I can't find all of these in one place, but that simply wouldn't be any fun now would it??

Brian

 

[Timbre Wolf]

excellent.

I appreciate the info.
I've emailed a few of these tube dealers to see what they have.

Is this the correct RCA 3 Mica spacer 5751?
http://kcanostubes.com/content/estore_details.asp?category=97&product=50
that's a bit pricey, but I'd almost rather do that than deal with ebay and such..

it's too bad that I can't find all of these in one place, but that simply wouldn't be any fun now would it??

Brian

The hunt can be fun. And it can be exasperating, too.

Those RCA at KCA are the shiz!!

- T

 

[bjoneill74]

I actually took the plunge this weekend and put in the 5751 at V3 and the Mullard 12AX7 in V4... It was kind of a gamble, but I kept the Mesa branded 12AX7's organized in case I wanted to go back to them.
I put them in one by one and have to say that it was best with both of them in there.
So TW's suggestions were right on for me. I only needed very minor eq changes here and there.
The crunches were fantastic, the cleans were very nice sounding (though a bit diminished in the highs) I had to turn up one of my clean patches to get it where I like it, and the best part were the lead tones, they just sang like they have never before. I still need to put in the 12BZ7 at V5, but that can wait another few days. I got a second 12BZ7 to use as the input tube on the 2:Ninety as well.
With the suggestions he gave me the whole rig reacts and sounds much more like a cohesive amp/head. It's just amazing the difference they have made.

Thanks again TW.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

I actually took the plunge this weekend and put in the 5751 at V3 and the Mullard 12AX7 in V4... It was kind of a gamble, but I kept the Mesa branded 12AX7's organized in case I wanted to go back to them.
I put them in one by one and have to say that it was best with both of them in there.
So TW's suggestions were right on for me. I only needed very minor eq changes here and there.
The crunches were fantastic, the cleans were very nice sounding (though a bit diminished in the highs) I had to turn up one of my clean patches to get it where I like it, and the best part were the lead tones, they just sang like they have never before. I still need to put in the 12BZ7 at V5, but that can wait another few days. I got a second 12BZ7 to use as the input tube on the 2:Ninety as well.
With the suggestions he gave me the whole rig reacts and sounds much more like a cohesive amp/head. It's just amazing the difference they have made.

Thanks again TW.

:mrgreen:
I'm so pleased to hear you're enjoying the tube upgrades, Brian! The change to 12BZ7 will also be somewhat radical, and I'd love to hear your feedback.

- T

 

[bjoneill74]

yep, I will report in when I can do it. I think the band is off for this weekend, but I'll get to them next weekend.

I expect that the V5 tube will make things louder as you said you had experienced a 2db increase in overall level.
I need to figure out which valve is the input tube for the 2:90.
I have no idea what the tube layout is on the 2:90 (where are you supposed to put matched pairs in that amp etc..
I've never taken the hood off of the 2:90, though I have looked inside the 50/50 I used to have.

I'm a tad concerned about the 12BZ7's taking lows out as you have stated they would, but I'll check them out.
I need to decide what to put in the other 12AX7 slots of the 2:Ninety.
I have those chinese tubes that I got with the first batch (Raytheon/Mullard 12AT7).
I could try those in there.

Brian

 

[Timbre Wolf]

I no longer have a 2:90, and I don't remember the exact layout inside. But the main input tube (V1) should be closest to the 1/4" input jacks.

There are two other 12AX7 slots, and these should be close to the two 6L6GC quads - they're the phase-inverters (PI). Mullard CV4024 are superb PI tubes, in many amps. That's what I use in my 20/20, and in my Traynor YCV20WR.

Your concern about the bass drop with the 12BZ7 is interesting. I have found that I prefer less bass, and, in fact, often dial out frequencies below ~80Hz. Both the tube change, and the eq setting make for a less flubby low-end, and what's left is tighter and more clear, in my opinion. I like this aspect of the 12BZ7 - it leaves more room for the bass player, too.

- T

 

[bjoneill74]

yeah.. I'd agree that a lot of players dial in way too much bass.
I have a bass player that uses 5 string basses and a keyboardist with bass pedals in the band.
My sound is what I'd consider big, but not a lot of sub-bass junk going on.

We'll see how they sound.. again.. I'm not complaining (yet).. It's not fair to do that without trying them.

As for the 2:90 layout.. I'd like to find something as the manual doesn't state the tube layout and such.

4024's eh?
another $100 - $120 in the power amp..
hrmm..
perhaps down the road.. I'm pretty pleased with it as it is for now.
oh wait.. those are the ones you can get for about $20 right?


Brian

 

[Timbre Wolf]

4024's eh?
another $100 - $120 in the power amp..
hrmm..
perhaps down the road.. I'm pretty pleased with it as it is for now.
oh wait.. those are the ones you can get for about $20 right?

I swear, man, I'm not an agent for NOS tube sellers! :lol:

You can get the early '80s-production NOS Mullard CV4024 (12AT7WA) for about $20 from a couple of dealers. They all charge about $5 more, per tube, for matched triode sections (recommended for PI use). I recommend Doug Preston, of Doug's Tubes, for these.

- T

 

[bjoneill74]

I trust you.. you have gotten me thus far with very good results..

I'll follow a little further.

More Mullards in my future..

Brian

 

[nothing]

i have 0 experience with tubes so some of this is a bit over my head. i have tri and a 50/50. i was going to go with euro tube for the standard replacement set up. do you think this is a good place to start?
i mainly use the LD2 green and yellow, from time to time i will use the reds. i play in a metal band and this would be the primary sound i am going for. the reason i even have the tri was that i was chasing the metallica black sound but i later found i would need much than the just a tri and a good power amp. TW if you do reply just know i know nothing and i have only had this set for about 2 weeks, but any advice would be much appreciated.

thank you-
nothing

 

[bjoneill74]

TW's suggestions have been pretty much right on for me.
I thought the gain/crunch would diminish.. it changed, but got better in my opinion.. the lead and clean sounds are far better than they were with the stock tubes (which weren't bad to begin with in my opinion).

However, I didn't much like the 12BZ7 in V5. It made things a little too loose/muddy for my taste.
I liked it on clean and lead sounds, but the crunches were far too un-focused for the stuff that I need to do.

I may possibly try another 12BZ7 as I got two of them. Perhaps it was just THAT tube causing that sound.

Cheers,

Brian

 

[Timbre Wolf]

However, I didn't much like the 12BZ7 in V5. It made things a little too loose/muddy for my taste.
I liked it on clean and lead sounds, but the crunches were far too un-focused for the stuff that I need to do.

I may possibly try another 12BZ7 as I got two of them. Perhaps it was just THAT tube causing that sound.

Loose and muddy does not sound anywhere near to my experience with using a 12BZ7 in V5. I wonder if it is overdriving the input valve (or the PI) to your power amp (2:90, isn't it?)?

I've experienced the opposite effect from the 12BZ7 in my rig, with the Triaxis (V5 12BZ7) going to a Mesa 20/20 (with 12BZ7 as V1-input). The 12BZ7 is, for me, clean and bright, with a snappy quality that has less bass, but the lower frequencies are more clear and defined (=less flub), with a lower noise floor.

Very interesting that there are such different results. Go with what you hear, though, and I'm sorry the 12BZ7 didn't turn out as good for you as the other tubes (which I'm glad to hear are suiting you well).

- T