Help improving the tone of a used triple rec I bought

[virelai]

Hi all, first post here.
I bought a used mesa triple rec 3 ch version from a guitar store in Italy. Before buying it I obviously tried it, and, despite the fact that the tone didn't sound like the new rectifiers I tried in other stores, or like rectifiers I listened to at gigs, I bought it because of its value for money.
I must say, its tone sucks a little bit :mrgreen: , so I'm here to see what I can do to improve it, obviously with your help :roll:
I think a good start would be changing the tubes, all of them, as it has Svetlana both in the preamp section and final amp section, with the final amp tubes being EL 34, and I would like to try 6L6. I also was thinking about getting it modded by FJA or Voodoo, but it's a lot of money and I live in Europe so I'll think about it later, after changing the tubes.
My goal tone would be something more fat that what is now, more tight, with less buzz coming from the preamp section, with good bass palm muting (which I don't have right now).
I've recorded a little clip and uploaded it to rapidshare, and I will upload it to mediafire as well because rapidshare has a maximum download limit of 10 downloads. What you'll hear is ch.2 modern the first (with all eq pots at 12 except gain and master a t 1-2 o'clock) and ch.3 modern the second with master, presence, mid and treble at around 12, gain and bass full cranked).
So take a listen and tell me what you hear and what can I do.
Oh, I'm playing it through a 1X15 EBS bass cab + 2X10 EPIFANI Bass cab. I'm a bass player so as I had these cabs I decided not to buy another cab, but let me tell you that the tone is exactly the same as when I tried it at the store, with a marshall 4X12 guitar cab.
Oh, and the guitat is a michael kelly Patriot Premium with gibson 498T and 490R pick-ups.
Thanks

LINK TO THE CLIP

 

[suhrlyguy]

I'm new here, but have owned and still own literally a ton of boogies. I'll start with what my amp tech voiced about such things one day while we were talking about modding. Why did you buy it if your not completely thrilled with it? Regarding my series I Road King. To which I replied, I like 90% of what it does, just a bit of the hazy, grainy overdrive in certain modes that I didn't like. It did do things that other amps I own don't, therefore justifying my purchase.
My advice is this: change the power tubes with mesa tubes (6l6 for a fuller bass and more headroom, or el34's for upper-mid shimmer and tighter bass, loss of headroom though). Leave the pre-amp tubes alone unless they are microphonic, as these rarely go out and unless you like wasting money, it's a fools errand.
A trip to a reputable amp tech is probably in line. Anytime I buy used gear that has been obviously heavily gigged, it goes in. The boards benefit from a cleaning (residues build up and can cause shorts, or just plain crud up your contacts making things run less efficiently). A good once over to check things out can also help reveal future problems (old caps/resistors etc).
The last point is this, and it comes from an engineering standpoint. The people that built the amp know more than the average player about how the amp works from a component to component and whole instrument perspective. Changing things to circumvent the engineering is asking for trouble.
I can't tell you how many times I have passed on vintage Marshalls and other amps because they had some aftermarket mod. If you plan to keep the amp, mod away, but if you ever sell it you will loose your *** in the terms of cash invested unless you can find a private buyer that digs the mod.
My ultimate advice is service the amp, because it is a heralded piece of iconic gear with so much potential beyond metal playing when explored fully and keep it. If you have the cash, explore other amps that deliver what your looking for. I personally love the difference in amps and exploit these characteristics live for different gigs and styles. There is always room for one more, especially a triple rectifier!
If all else fails, call Mesa. They are really nice people and give a **** about their customers and are committed to making things right.
Cheers

 

[screamingdaisy]

gain and bass full cranked

I can't listen to your clips, but I suspect that your problem lies right there. Learn to EQ your amp and you'll get better tone.

I usually run my bass between about 9:00 and 10:00, with the gain between 12:00 and 13:00. I lean out the bass so I get tighter riffing, but it's alright to run the bass up until around 12:00. Anything past that and I find it tends to sound muddy.

Also, on the three channels try running the channel master volumes down around 10:00 and the master output between about 11:00 and 13:00. Running the masters up too high overdrives the power tubes and causes them to mush up on the bass notes. You need to find the sweet spot where the amp is running hot enough to smooth the preamp gain out, but not so hot that it compresses and mushes out.

And lastly, don't bother modding an amp you're not happy with. It's a waste of money. Your better off selling it and buying something that you are happy with.

 

[virelai]

Hey, thank for the replies.
I uploaded the audio clip to media fire too as I said in my previous post, here is the link.

@ screamingdaisy, I know that every amp has its own eq section and that it has to be learned how to use it to get the best (or better, what you want) out of the amp, but believe me, I've tried a lot of different combinations and still the tone is far away from what I expect from a triple rectifier. Maybe I'm wrong, but triple rectifiers don't sound like this. At least, this is what I remember.
Also, I have to tell you, that it seems to me that the bass eq does a good job cutting lows but a really poor job boosting them...is it the same with yours? Or it's just mine that needs a new bass pot.

The reason why I recorded a clip is to give you a sample of what it sounds like so that you can tell me if my rectifier sounds like a rectifier (in this case, I rather sell it and go for something else, as you both said) or if there's something "wrong".

I'm planning to go to a recording studio which has a mesa triple rec here in town and make a parallel comparison between mine and theirs, to see what comes out.

The clip is a 44.1 Khz 16bit PCM wave file, so you should be able to open it with any sequencer (nuendo/cubase, pro tools, logic, digital performer, etc) but also with players like VLC, Foobar2000, and WMP.

 

[Disintegrated Skies]

You're using bass cabs? Call me crazy, but I believe that could be a big reason your tone is bad.

 

[domct203]

I listened to the RS clip and have this advise.

1) Change the tubes to all new Mesa branded tubes, 12AX7's and STR-440 6L6GC.
2) Get a decent guitar cab :shock: . Those bass cabs are not tuned to compliment a guitar amp, esp a Rectifier.
3) Use Bold Power and Diode rectification.
4) The Recto series need to be opened up (loud) to get them smooth and full.
5) When the master/output is around 10:00-11:00 you really don't need the gain above 2:00-2:30, even with single coils.
These amps are capable of rediculous amounts of signal gain.
6) The gain knob is not a distortion level knob.
7) Use a boost/OD out front to push the 1st gain stage without cranking the amps gain control.
8 ) Download the manual, read it, and try some of the sample settings.
9) Learn how to properly EQ your amp using your ears not your eyes. Theres a good reason there are no numbers on those knobs . Most of the EQ control sweet spots are between 10:00-2:00, and they interact with each other.
10) Read the manual again.

Good luck with your tone quest. Be patient, most first time Mesa players take months to really learn how to dial in their amps.

Dom

 

[YellowJacket]

2) Get a decent guitar cab :shock: . Those bass cabs are not tuned to compliment a guitar amp, esp a Rectifier.

Haha, I tried running my Dual through my Ashdown 210 for science. Sounds like sweaty, engorged, hairy ballsack unless I'm playing a bass guitar. Good guitar cabs are fairly inexpensive used and will make that amp squeal like a pig in heat instead of moaning like your grandma. I suggest doing this upgrade FIRST and swapping the tubes second.

 

[virelai]

So you're saying to change the tubes with mesa ones? Not with TAD, Mullard, JJ or EH...
Do I have to order them directly from mesa?

About the cab thing, I know it will sound different with a dedicated guitar cab, otherwise cabs would be universal, but still, I think the difference would not be huge, the tone of the amp would be still there.But anyway, as I said, I'm going to make a comparison between my rectifier and another one, and with a guitar cab.

What domct203 said is really true, "The Recto series need to be opened up (loud) to get them smooth and full." and maybe that's true with most "older" tube amps, but still, what I don't like of this amp is the preamp section. I may post some new clips with a tech 21 sansamp PSA-1 replacing the preamp section of the rectifier, to give you an idea of what I would like the loud channel of an amp to sound like. Just an idea though, because still, this sound is somehow fake, but really, really tight.

Thank you all guys for your help

 

[Roadifier]

About the cab thing, I know it will sound different with a dedicated guitar cab, otherwise cabs would be universal, but still, I think the difference would not be huge, the tone of the amp would be still there.But anyway, as I said, I'm going to make a comparison between my rectifier and another one, and with a guitar cab.

A guitar cabinet makes a HUGE difference in the sound of an amp. And Speakers, What type of speakers are in your bass cab? Bass cabs with a recto are not going to get you that traditional Chugging Bass recto sound.

 

[YellowJacket]

About the cab thing, I know it will sound different with a dedicated guitar cab, otherwise cabs would be universal, but still, I think the difference would not be huge, the tone of the amp would be still there.But anyway, as I said, I'm going to make a comparison between my rectifier and another one, and with a guitar cab.

A guitar cabinet makes a HUGE difference in the sound of an amp. And Speakers, What type of speakers are in your bass cab? Bass cabs with a recto are not going to get you that traditional Chugging Bass recto sound.

+10

Trust me, I have a bass cab and a guitar cab.

 

[Spewnz]

i listened to that clip...get a guitar cab for sure and have it checked with a tech just to make sure nothing is wrong because that does not sound right in the slightest.

 

[Disintegrated Skies]

I tried a bass cab with a guitar head once, and my result was similar, which is why I brought it up. Disgustingly buzzy.

 

[fluff191]

About the cab thing, I know it will sound different with a dedicated guitar cab, otherwise cabs would be universal, but still, I think the difference would not be huge, the tone of the amp would be still there.

 

[YellowJacket]

About the cab thing, I know it will sound different with a dedicated guitar cab, otherwise cabs would be universal, but still, I think the difference would not be huge, the tone of the amp would be still there.

OLOL!!!!

Ya, that is a bit of an understatement. I decided, for the sake of argument, to give an HONEST test of my ashdown 210 bass cab with my Dual as well as my homemade Thiele 2 x 12 guitar cab. A/B-ing the two, the contrast is pretty pronounced on a clean setting and like black and white (bad and good) with gain. Don't get me wrong, the Ashdown 210 sound fantastic with a Bass guitar but swap that out for an electric and oof, it is nasty.

Ashdown with Bass = super phat, crisp, and defined tone. Ashdown clean with guitar = uncontrollable boomy lows

, undefined mids

, and sharp highs

.
Ashdown + Gain and Guitar was a buzzy mess

. With the horn on, it was sharp

and kind of compressed like the tone was being scrunched up or severely warped

. With the horn off, it ceased to be sharp but was still very warped sounding

. For 102db / watt / meter speakers, the cab is surprisingly quiet. (Much louder with a bass guitar)

Thiele 2 x 12 (Like hell I'm playing my bass through here >=-[ ) Clean with Guitar: Warm and articulate. Gain with guitar = gobs of fat, midrangy crunch that the Dual is known for. Very detailed and balanced without any one frequency sticking out a lot. I mean it sounds like a guitar amp now. The tone was no longer warped and the cab is FREAKING LOUD. I don't know what they do to guitar speakers. The 'anemic' 96db / watt / meter for my greenback and the 100db / watt / meter for the v30 do not accurately explain how loud guitar speakers are. Yes, yes, we hear midrange best, but man, the sheer power is absolutely deafening by comparison.

So there you have it, virelai. A completely unbiased and scientific test comparing and contrasting the benefits and drawbacks of guitar and bass speakers. Being a bass player, I'm sure you are acquainted with how awesome Ashdown bass gear sounds so you will know that I wasn't simply using crappy bass speakers and absolutely awesome guitar speakers. Perhaps we should chat about bass gear sometime. I'm currently shopping for a bass head and really digging Markbass.
As for your new guitar head, get yourself a guitar cab before you spend lots of money retubing it or flipping it for something else. If you like building things, you can do what I did and build your own cab. Different guitar speaker models sound very different from one another, especially when overdriven, so it can be fun to mix and match parts and custom design something that is perfect for your own individual tastes.

i listened to that clip...get a guitar cab for sure and have it checked with a tech just to make sure nothing is wrong because that does not sound right in the slightest.

I can tell you right now an honest tech will tell him to get a guitar cab. If that doesn't solve the problem, he can bring it back, but I have a feeling it will.

 

[fluff191]

So there you have it, virelai. A completely unbiased and scientific test comparing and contrasting the benefits and drawbacks of guitar and bass speakers.

MAN you have way more patience with him than I (or many others) do!!!! :lol:

 

[LithiumZero]

First of all get a guitar cab. A bass cab is not going to work. Then read the manual, tweak for a bit and READ IT AGAIN. There is a wealth of great info in the manual. You have to understand how the amps controls interact with each other to really get the best tones out it.

I wouldn't pay what Mesa wants for their tubes. They are way overpriced. You can get much better sounding tubes for the same or less money that are in Mesa spec. I buy tubes from tubedepot.com and have always had great experiences with them but any reputable online dealer will sell you tubes that are within Mesa spec. Just let them know when you are ordering them that they are going in a Recto and you're all set. I'm currently running TAD 6L6's in my Roadster and they sound GREAT! The SED's are really nice as well. Also try putting a Tung-Sol reissue 12ax7 in the V1 position. You'll thank me!

 

[virelai]

Thanks Lithium.
Ok, I will follow the advise you all gave me, I will try a guitar cab, I will compare my rectifier with another one, and then, if the other rectifier sounds like I want it to sound will change tubes and whatever. I just wanted to say, again, that the first time I played with this head was with a guitar cab...

Anyway, here is a clip with a sansamp psa-1 replacing the preamp section of the mesa; It's NOT a good distorted guitar sound, the sansamp has a really bad eq section, it's really noisy (again for the sans), but the distortion is tight and fat. Also the recording lacks in bass frequencies, becuase of the microphone used, but I didn't have another choice.
Download Clip

Bye

 

[Turumbar82]

So you've played on other Rectifiers and liked them?

Since you got it used there could be a possibility that there's something wrong with it and that's why it doesn't sound like the others you have played.

If I were you I would check your preamp tubes first. One of them could be bad.

From the sounds of your recording...I can hear you hitting the strings of your guitar which means you are playing at a very low volume. This is probably why you you feel the need to crank your bass. As you bring up your master and output you will notice that you need to drop the bass more and more.

 

[YellowJacket]

Geez, it's bermuda_ all over again =-/

Ok, here is the shindig:

GOOD guitar with good pickups, not a peice of crap* ----> GOOD patch cable ---> Mesa triple Rec** (with volume at at least a quarter) ----> good speaker lead (NOT A PATCH CABLE) ----> GOOD guitar cab**. Don't even try a Behringer or whatever they are.

THIS rig you can A/B against a new amp to see what is going on.

* A Triple Recto is a HIGH QUALITY amp so it has some transparency to it. If you put a crappy guitar through it will sound like crap. Crappy guitars are defined as anything bearing the words but not limited to 1) Epiphone 2) Squire 3) Tribute 4) _ _ _ _ _ (fill in name of budget beginner guitars here)

** ABSOLUTELY NO PEDALS, PREAMPS, OR ANYTHING BEFORE THE RECTO!!!!

*** Just because it says Marshall on it doesn't mean it is a good cab. Try with Mesa cabs, ONLY Marshall 1960 cabs (a, ax, vintage etc), Orange cabs, Soldano, etc. You get the picture. Oh, and turn the **** thing up. It sounds much better LOUD! AND read the manual. SEVERAL TIMES!!!! >=-[

>=-[

 

[Turumbar82]

ahhh whatever happened to bermuda_ :lol:

Anyway, I disagree with the Epiphone comment. Both of my Epiphones sounded great through my Mesa and they sound great through my ENGL/VHT set up.


Your general point is good though. Good guitar, good cables, good amp, good speaker cab, and most importantly good playing = good sound.

If you have all of those components and don't like the sound of the amp it's probably not the right amp for you. Amps are very personal.