Bugera Mark Clone amp! Holy Likely Lawsuit Batman!!!

[TimeSignature]

Chip, you may need a refresher course in economics.

Lets just say that if you live in America, you want the money you spend to stay in America. You also want other countries buying American made products... Eh, you know what, China owns us anyway... lets give them even more of our money. Oh, you think someone in China is going to buy an American made product?? um.. no.

 

[giorikas81]

Hey man I don't live in USA I am not american. I am in europe. So how about an intermediate view? I really don't care if USA bankrupts tomorrow because it is not local. Still chinese products have come to my country claiming a market share in many domains. What happens next? Well let's take cellphones or jeans for example. Because market electronics are more taiwan and china than tien an men itself.

There are china e-stores with cellphones, for let's say 100$. That give you everything! Wifi touch screens DTV etc. You need 3xtimes the money to get a sony erricsson or nokia phone which probably doesn't match it specwise. And you know what happens? Unless somebody is desperate and out of money to get such a phone everybody buys either a lower spec nokia phone or cashes for the more expensive touch screen phone. China my ***. For jeans, let's say than other than people that work outdoors and wear jeans for protection or to have them turned into rags (heavy duty works) the majority usually prefers THE BETTER QUALITY product even if that means that you'll buy scarcer than a jean a week. Chinese cars? They needed more lawyers than behringer to have them imported in europe and they still, don't sell ****.


In the end it is more like what quality standards you set for yourself. Bugera's standards may reach laney or marshall standards (which I don't think are very high these days) one day which is acceptable. Mesa is regarded as a high quality company. The end result is that no californian mesa employee is in danger by the magician or trirec. You won't see hetfield playing a tri bugex instead of a triaxis or a Tdi instead of a diezel anytime soon and you won't see crap bisquit (oh sorry I meant limp bizkit. Nope they are crap, limb dick it is!) play a trirec instead of a recto.



Excuse me but didn't chinese gibson knockoffs appeared years ago and with a set of bbuckers could erase gibson from the players mind? (why take my oooh expensive gibby I'll take the china out in the gig and nobody gives a **** it sounds similar). Theoretically speaking. I don't see gibson closing instead of them anytime soon (it could close because of arrogance and a first class A-hole bunghole of a president but that is another story). Why should there be a discussion about a magician as if it magically threatens USA employess existence?


Point is a guy above said a good player with two bugeras "got the gig". Well he couldn't have done it with two valve juniors. I never read anybody that said bugeras sound like ****. There are tons of good recorded clips or youtube goodies that well put to shame a lot of other people's efforts with 1000's$ more expensive gear. There is not anything, out there, priced below a used mark III or mark IIB (which let's face it great amps but feature wise, almost crippled compared to the mark IV and V) which can be regarded as a complete mark IV clone and performs equally or similarly. Even a simple quad preamp, without power amp or speakers will cost used more than a bugera magician used in some years from now. If the magician manages to hit the target sonically bugera will be the only company that had the guts to do it. And maybe more people at a younger age will pick them up and get the mark or recto bug. What's wrong with that? Boogie does not make any money from used marks changing hands. Only e-bay and craiglist do. Screw them anyway!!!

 

[giorikas81]

And what did peavey do anyway? Rip the SLO design with some cost cutting twists? does this make it ok just because it was made in the US? Isn't it an intellectuall rights case or not? What did it do to counteract bugera? Build a chinese 112 peavey combo? Will mesa go chinese with a new transpacific line of small mark-recto amps? Then we are talking.


Marshall went there? Vox/korg/marshall is there? Orange build their hit the tiny terror which sounds delicious there and doesn't cost an arm and half leg there? Are all your guitar parts not made in china? Are you not consuming/using anything made in china? You buy a mercedes-benz and 70% the least of that car is outsourced? Isn't that a sign of global economy? Doesn't Soldano earn more from his chinese line than his soldano line alone?

Isn't it hillarius that me who I don't adore the marshall sound but full around with it occasionaly can buy a good plexi copy for 369 euros? This is less than a radial plexitube which doesn't sound that good to me anyway. Marshall is probably not going to earn a cent from me ever because I would never buy anything (exception marshall mg and marshall JVM and that used) plexi etc from them ever. So they don't loose from bugera either.


The only real butthurt is that no big company is able to buy out behringer and get their profits and company. They are just too big now. Because almost every major company fulls around overseas ALONG with their high class lines of US-UK products. Oh and yeah, don't open up any mesa any time soon and get a shock cause their pcbs are laid out in china or korea anyway for years now.

 

[Heritage Softail]

And what did peavey do anyway? Rip the SLO design with some cost cutting twists? does this make it ok just because it was made in the US? Isn't it an intellectuall rights case or not? What did it do to counteract bugera? Build a chinese 112 peavey combo? Will mesa go chinese with a new transpacific line of small mark-recto amps? Then we are talking.

Intersting points. The "Intellectual Property" argument for a sound is what I have against or in question with amp modelers. It does not really cover that even though it does make you think. Seems shady.

On the local economy thing, money that is circulated locally gets 'recirculated' multiple times, depending on your school of thought in economics. If Mesa gets $$$$$ for an amp, $$ to labor, $$ to material, $ to benefits/overhead. The people circulate the $$ multiple times in the area and it turns into $$$$$$, some material is bought locally - that pays workers who spend it locally and recirculate it. The $$ on benefits medical/dental/vision all gets spent locally, recirculated... Then the music stores that sell the Boogies here get the same trickle down economic cycle going locally.

Not all agree in economics applications, but ANY $$ spent in an area has the Trickle Down Economics effect. It does matter. And as others posted, lots of people don't care if our economy goes bankrupt.

 

[chipaudette]

Lets just say that if you live in America, you want the money you spend to stay in America

This is the part that I was trying to get at. America is a large place. Why do you draw the "us" versus "them" line at America's borders? Why is Joe in California more worthwhile than a Cho in Taiwan?

Where I live, we do a lot more trade with the folks in Quebec (that would be Canada) than the folks in California. Les Quebecois come down to visit to spend their (Canadian) dollars in far higher numbers than tourists from California. So, to help out my fellow man, shouldn't I be sending my dollars to Quebec instead of California? The dollars to Quebec will come back a lot faster. So where should I spend my non-local dollar -- Quebec or California? To many in this country, that might sound ridiculous..."buy USA" is the right answer. I'm not so sure.

To me, I do see value in helping out your local guy versus your not-local guy. But, if it's coming from 3000 miles away (ie, California), how is it any different (and you say better) to me than if it is coming 7000 miles or 10,000,000 miles? Once it leaves my circle (wherever that is), it's going far far away, and I've yet to hear any discussion why "far away" California is better than "really far away" China.

Again, please rebut. It's this kind of discussion and convincing that is missing from empty news stories (aimed to sell advertising) and strident radio shows (aimed to sell advertising). It's through this kind of discussion and convincing that better decisions are made.

Chip

 

[EleventhHour2139]

A "far away" Californian is INFINITELY more likely to recirculate the money you spend on their goods back into the US economy than some "far away" Chinese individual is.

As Heritage Softtail said, recirculating of money in the economy is good, it keeps our (US) country running. Hence the whole "buy American" thing, and why outsourcing is tearing the country apart financially. Lame as it is, think of the water cycle as a great metaphor for our country's financial system. If any one link goes awry, the whole chain is kaput.

So, not only is buying American an issue of loyalty but also one of self-interest. If you spend money in YOUR country it will manifest itself by improving your country around you and eventually make its way back to you in innumerable forms, ala the Trickle Down effect.

As always, just a thought.

 

[Heritage Softail]

A "far away" Californian is INFINITELY more likely to recirculate the money you spend on their goods back into the US economy than some "far away" Chinese individual is.

As Heritage Softtail said, recirculating of money in the economy is good, it keeps our (US) country running. Hence the whole "buy American" thing, and why outsourcing is tearing the country apart financially. Lame as it is, think of the water cycle as a great metaphor for our country's financial system. If any one link goes awry, the whole chain is kaput.

So, not only is buying American an issue of loyalty but also one of self-interest. If you spend money in YOUR country it will manifest itself by improving your country around you and eventually make its way back to you in innumerable forms, ala the Trickle Down effect.

As always, just a thought.

I totally LMAO at your signature quote... the 5K wasted.. ha ha, on bills? :lol: :lol:

 

[dodger916]

Lets just say that if you live in America, you want the money you spend to stay in America

This is the part that I was trying to get at. America is a large place. Why do you draw the "us" versus "them" line at America's borders? Why is Joe in California more worthwhile than a Cho in Taiwan?

In the "micro" view of things, the Cali Joe pays taxes to our governments, but becomes a drain on our collective National resources when he is unemployed. I'd rather have a Joe who can suport himself rather than one who relies on his fellow citizens/taxpayers for his support.

In the more macro view, the fate of Beijing Cho is of no immediate consequence to me. However, if the collective Cho suffers due to a slow economy in his country, his government's ability to buy our ever burgeoning debt (which helps support the unemployed Cali Joe) becomes limited; thus placing the burden on me and my fellow citizens. This is not necessarily a bad things, as it forces us as a Nation to live within our means and deal with the economic realities today rather than borrowing and forcing the problem on future generations. This will result in either increased taxes to support those who cannot support themselves or reduced support/lower standard of living to those in need. Either way, sacrifice is required.

(WARNING: political rant) Sadly, IMHO, our social policies of the past 40 years, although "well-intentioned", have resulted in a class of citizen who has NOT been forced to deal with the economic realities they created for themselves by the choices they made. (This does not discount the honest needs of those who fall upon hard times.) There are many Americans who will gladly stay on the dole and accept a lower standard of living rather than work for a living. There was a time when irresponsible choices (e.g., population size of the community) meant the collective would go hungry, or starve. These stark realities before the age of government subsidies made personal responsibility a matter of common sense survival, not a matter of morality. In many ways we are victims of our own success. The greed and narrow ambition of elected leaders who sell financial salvation to their electorate for votes is only possible when the Nation can afford it. But we are increasingly unable to afford it, so what happens to all those who have not positioned themselves to support themselves adequately in our system? Do they starve or do we as a Nation merely "redistribute the wealth" as our President suggests.

 

[EleventhHour2139]

I totally LMAO at your signature quote... the 5K wasted.. ha ha, on bills? :lol: :lol:

Haha the only one that's important to pay is the electricity since my Mark III can't produce its own power out of sheer badass-ness...yet.

As for the others, weeellll that's nothin some good SD&R can't take care of for ya. :twisted:

 

[chipaudette]

A "far away" Californian is INFINITELY more likely to recirculate the money you spend on their goods back into the US economy than some "far away" Chinese individual is.

Actually, those dollars in China come right back to the US...either as buying our products or services (hah!) or by buying our government debt. Since they won't buy our products/services, they don't have much left to buy except our debt. Hence, they've bought a lot of it, which is why the interest rates on our government debt is so ridiculously low. Since we can't keep our gvt spending under control, those dollars come back from China and end up helping us in that way.

I'm not making any statement that that's a good thing or a bad thing. Just clarifying that dollars that go to China do indeed come right back to the U.S.

Chip

(OK, you caught me, China does use some of the dollars they get from us to buy oil on the world market, since oil is always priced in US dollars. But the receiver of those oil dollars then has to find a place to use those dollars and, again, if they're not buying our goods and services, they only option they have left is to buy our debt. So, same argument).

 

[thunda1216]

The problem is that here lately they have been reluctant to buy any more of our debt because we are starting to look like deadbeats who are unable to pay our debts. There will be no bailouts for the USA. Will there be a short sale to avoid foreclosure of our country? I think not. What will USA bankruptcy culminate in? (Hint) *I* can't speak Cantonese *or* Mandarin.

 

[oyrgawd]

Bugera = Behringer.

In music retail I heard stories of under-the-hood comparisons between Behringer mixers and the Mackies they'd "cloned." There'd be different components on neighboring channels, like they'd run out of one capacitor and moved to another midway through building it. A matched pair of mics run through channels 1 and 2 wouldn't sound the same.

I'd tell my customers this: the Behringer product will probably work and sound fine, but when you're nervous enough about your mix sounding good in front of a crowd or your studio's gear working in a session, you won't want to worry about whether your mixer/compressor/patchbay is going to fart out in the middle of the gig because you spent 40% less on a knock-off. And you'll always wonder if that extra 10-20% of sound quality would've made you prouder.

With guitar amps, I think the same argument is deeper. How many times do you look back at your amp when you play? How many times do you feel the knobs? You like to know that 4x12 has got your back, right? It's a confidence boost, right? Even if you're a badass blues dude who plays through a busted record player, you get off on that, you trust that, and that helps you perform.

I'd also tell my customers that there was no harm in buying a cheapo multi-effects pedal just to try out different sounds. No different with a fake amp, I guess.

 

[Tout]

Cheap Chinese labor is not the real reason for people buying cheaper Chinese products here in the U.S.... Our government allowing greed to run our own corporations is. Look at how much money the top executives of most corporations make... that comes directly out of profits. They live extremely exorbitant lifestyles by reaping the benefits of the lower class worker. If our government mandated that any company in the U.S. maintain a large percentage of it's manufacturing here and mandated a salary cap for executives, there would be much less issue with our economy. No one would be crying to keep money local because we would still be producing products locally and selling them abroad for reduced prices.

America has created it's own economy crisis and buying American Made products won't fix it. You can definitely help your neighbors small business by purchasing their services/goods but the real change has to come from the top.

 

[EleventhHour2139]

A "far away" Californian is INFINITELY more likely to recirculate the money you spend on their goods back into the US economy than some "far away" Chinese individual is.

Actually, those dollars in China come right back to the US...either as buying our products or services (hah!) or by buying our government debt. Since they won't buy our products/services, they don't have much left to buy except our debt. Hence, they've bought a lot of it, which is why the interest rates on our government debt is so ridiculously low. Since we can't keep our gvt spending under control, those dollars come back from China and end up helping us in that way.

I'm not making any statement that that's a good thing or a bad thing. Just clarifying that dollars that go to China do indeed come right back to the U.S.

Chip

(OK, you caught me, China does use some of the dollars they get from us to buy oil on the world market, since oil is always priced in US dollars. But the receiver of those oil dollars then has to find a place to use those dollars and, again, if they're not buying our goods and services, they only option they have left is to buy our debt. So, same argument).

I'm not too up to date regarding the purchasing/selling of our government's debt (Shame on me I know, but politics and economics aren't exactly my passion. That's why I'm here ). But I suppose I would question what services or products you might be referring to? The only thing I can think of would be agricultural products, but that still would almost certainly have to pale in comparison to what we import from them. Thank you free trade :evil: :evil: :roll: .

 

[Heritage Softail]

Great adult conversation. I wonder if this would go on at Harmony Central... really?

After a day of jamming and with some ringing ears... Tax codes that incentivise offshoring labor/profits and unchecked executive salaries/bonuses that drive greedy individuals to make corporate decsions to put money in their pocket short term and hurt the company/shareholders long term have brought us to our financial situation. Add to that the 'entitlement' generation, and then watch that sector of the country grow in numbers..... Now we are getting close to having the entitlement sector become the most powerful force in the electorate. I wonder if we are going to continue down a path to decimate the middle class. Working poor and entitlement class supporting the rich, but will will have Obamma care.... For some reason an old phrase comes to mind.... one and done...

 

[chipaudette]

But I suppose I would question what services or products you might be referring to?

Yeah, our trade deficit with China is huge. No doubt. They don't really buy much of our stuff.

Data for trade to China (reference here) is below. As far as I can tell, this is for goods only...services do not seem to be included.

U.S. Trade of goods with China

Year      2006    2007    2008   2009
-------------------------------------------
Exports    55      65      72      70  Billion $
Imports   288     322     338     296  Billion $
--------------------------------------------
Deficit    233     256     266     227 Billion $

In terms of what goods we export, our primary exports to China (same references as above and below) are "machinery" and "electrical machinery" and "electrical generating machinery", agricultural products (soybeans, more soybeans, cotton, other grains, and "hides and skins"), raw materials (scrap iron, steel, plastics, organic chemicals, paper pulp and paper board), and aircraft and spacecraft (ie, Boeing).

So, what's often left off these lists are services. Services are when they pay us to perform some sort of "work" for them...think financial services (Wall Street), engineering and architectural services, education services (college kids), entertainment (Hollywood products), and haircuts (you know we have a big haircut export business, right?). This reference here says that, for 2007, we exported $14.2 Billion in services with China and we imported $8.8 Billion. That's a tidy little surplus for the U.S., but is still dwarfed by the deficit in goods.

I'm not trying to make any point here (other than our deficit with China is very large). Just trying to spread the facts, as best as I can find them.

Oh, and that 200-250 Billion dollar trade deficit, well, those are 200-250 Billion extra dollars that China needs to some how get rid of. It uses some of those dollars to buy oil (all world contracts are generally in US dollars), but the bulk of it comes back to the US when they buy our debt. At 200-250 Billion a year, you can see how quickly they could have built up the 2 Trillion dollars worth of our debt that they hold. I'm not arguing that that's a problem (it may be, it may not)...the trade deficit numbers just show how it happens.

Chip

 

[giorikas81]

Bugera = Behringer.

In music retail I heard stories of under-the-hood comparisons between Behringer mixers and the Mackies they'd "cloned." There'd be different components on neighboring channels, like they'd run out of one capacitor and moved to another midway through building it. A matched pair of mics run through channels 1 and 2 wouldn't sound the same.

I'd tell my customers this: the Behringer product will probably work and sound fine, but when you're nervous enough about your mix sounding good in front of a crowd or your studio's gear working in a session, you won't want to worry about whether your mixer/compressor/patchbay is going to fart out in the middle of the gig because you spent 40% less on a knock-off. And you'll always wonder if that extra 10-20% of sound quality would've made you prouder.

With guitar amps, I think the same argument is deeper. How many times do you look back at your amp when you play? How many times do you feel the knobs? You like to know that 4x12 has got your back, right? It's a confidence boost, right? Even if you're a badass blues dude who plays through a busted record player, you get off on that, you trust that, and that helps you perform.

I'd also tell my customers that there was no harm in buying a cheapo multi-effects pedal just to try out different sounds. No different with a fake amp, I guess.

No. As I said earlier mark patents (and recto maybe?) are not binding anymore. Nothing wrong for a mark IV style amp at a price you cannot ever buy a used one. Plus read the whole thread. There are examples of people playing bugera live and doing good. Still if beiing cheap is one's thing then thank god for bugera. If you re kinda more serious (as if the major manufacturers amps don't fail live or whatever-a single tube may do the damage) and make good money from your music then other factors than sound quality weigh in. If bugera is an option at that level I leave it to the pros.

Still if anybody's on the budget for a mark IV style amp tomorrow may pick up one magician for 400$? Sounds good to me not anybody is rich or have a big musical allowance.

I never look at my amp when I play live!!! :lol: I'd make mistakes then. If I feel it enough I am good to go and the name tag is sh** to me.

 

[SonicProvocateur]

Great adult conversation. I wonder if this would go on at Harmony Central... really?

Lol. Indeed. No they would be throwing pictures, emoticons and profanity at each other. Even over at Jemsite the quality of conversation waxes and wanes a bit. This is still quite refreshing. Jemsite however is ultra heavily moderated.

 

[glguitarman]

Wow, this is actually very cool! I have always loved Mesa Boogie BECAUSE of the Mark series. Finally somebody decided to base an amp design from a Mark series amp. I hope they got it right, with all of the silly idiosyncrasies about input/gain adjustment and such. Mesa Boogie hasn't really done anything with the Mark Series since the early 90's. And before you shove the Mark V in my face for saying that, I'll tell you right now that the Mark V is a cool amp, but not really a 'Mark' amp in my opinion.

It isn't like this is the first time amps were based on a Boogie. For years companies like Peavey (and a host of others) have made amps 'similar' to the rectifier series.

I am actually really surprised no one has done a IIC+ yet. I would think it'd be easier than a Mark IV.

 

[chipaudette]

Besides the removal of the "Vol 1" control on the lead channel, why do you feel that the Mark V is not really a "Mark" amp?

I don't have a Mark V, so I'm not getting all huffy and trying to defend it. I have been considering it, however, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Thanks,

Chip

<note: message recently edited because I forgot a critical "not" in my statement above...I'm an idiot>