ok smile, ultra guy your on candid camera. No seriously, I started playing 20x years ago with a really cheap guitar and equally cheap amp. I put it down after a year or so and didn't pick it back up for many years later. It was the quality of my gear always going out of tune, the cheap 8' or 10' speaker, along with my lack of knowledge combined that stopped me from getting better. I was uninspired by the cheap gear I had and it showed by the amount of hours I was willing to put in to get better. If I went back now to the cheap gear I would sound alot better on it but it would still not inspiring me because I still wouldn't find my sound and therefore wouldn't want to play often. I think it is a big viscious circle, get the best gear you can afford an practice as much as you possiby can. I look at good gear as a life time investment if you are serious about playing, good gear can last many, many years, I like to grow into my gear instead of buying and having to upgrade several times along the way. If I wasn't serious about getting better and wanting to play every day, I would just buy and entry level setup and leave it at that. But that is just me.
Tone or skill ? What should come first ?
- Thread starter Big Harry
- Start date
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I'd have to say learn to play first, develop your technique some. One thing a lot of people don't realize when they go from solid state to tube amps, is the response of a tube amp. I've been playing guitar for 21 years, but only been using tube amps for about 5 years.
When I first started playing tube amps I was disappointed, to be honest. It wasn't until recently that I've learned how to coax those sweet tones out of an amp that I've truly come to understand what makes tubes sound better than solid state. Tube amps DEMAND good technique in order to sound good, always keep that in mind.
I think good tone is a combination of talent and equipment. A talented player can make a crappy amp sound great, but it will never sound as awesome as the same person playing a good amp.
Edit: I will say get decent equipment to start off with, but there's no need to spend $$$ on the best gear until you've become competent.
When I first started playing tube amps I was disappointed, to be honest. It wasn't until recently that I've learned how to coax those sweet tones out of an amp that I've truly come to understand what makes tubes sound better than solid state. Tube amps DEMAND good technique in order to sound good, always keep that in mind.
I think good tone is a combination of talent and equipment. A talented player can make a crappy amp sound great, but it will never sound as awesome as the same person playing a good amp.
Edit: I will say get decent equipment to start off with, but there's no need to spend $$$ on the best gear until you've become competent.
As far as I'm concerned, tone is a subset of skill and they cannot be separated. If you have lousy tone then you're not a good player no matter how many fancy chords you know or fast your fingers move. Part of being a real musician is knowing what is pleasing to the ear and being able to achieve it. That includes being able to get a decent tone out of **** equipment in a pinch. I've had to do it and seen it done by others plenty of times. I've also seen plenty of folks get **** tones out of good equipment.
stompboxfreak72
Well-known member
SBG200 said:
+1. I think that sums it up.
Big Harry said:
No disrespect to you, sir. But I think the answer really IS self-evident if you took some time honestly assessing your own playing. Ask yourself the simple question: does my gear make me sound good, and will better gear make be sound better? C'mon, brother.
Edward
Sadhaka
Member
Buy the best guitar and amplifier that you can afford as soon as possible. I'm talking a few grands worth. Then put the amp in your closet and play the guitar for 6 - 10 years as many hours that you can in a day (preferably more than 5 hours everyday). Use a hard pick and your fingers - nail and no nail. Listen to as much different music as possible and get lessons from a good teacher or study music at a university. Be ultra critical (constructively - there really is no bad sound, just good and far superior. It's music after all!!!) of the different sounds that you are hearing coming out of cd's and learn to separate each different instrument on each track. Learn as many tunes as possible by ear and try to determine where on the guitar neck that player was playing due to the different sonic characteristics of string tone coupled with neck position. Play the tunes in as many different positions on that guitar as you can and in different registers. Play near the bridge and near the fretboard and anywhere in between. Learn how to play written music with good phrasing and musicality.
After ten years, pull your amp out of the closet, plug in and start tweaking. If it's a mesa amp that you bought all those years ago, give yourself another six months to a year and three sets of valves to find the tone you want. I say buy the amp now because prices are only going to go up!
After eleven years of 5 hours a day you will have put in over 20,000 hours on the guitar and you should sound OK. In fact, you'll probably be amazing on the guitar.
After ten years, pull your amp out of the closet, plug in and start tweaking. If it's a mesa amp that you bought all those years ago, give yourself another six months to a year and three sets of valves to find the tone you want. I say buy the amp now because prices are only going to go up!
After eleven years of 5 hours a day you will have put in over 20,000 hours on the guitar and you should sound OK. In fact, you'll probably be amazing on the guitar.
Griz
Well-known member
Nail on head SBG200.
It's the time of technology. Take advantage of it. You can buy a little Mesa. Put a Vintage 30 in it. Set it on the demo settings. You'll always have 'some' tone. :lol:
I think they're serious UltraGary.
It's the time of technology. Take advantage of it. You can buy a little Mesa. Put a Vintage 30 in it. Set it on the demo settings. You'll always have 'some' tone. :lol:
I think they're serious UltraGary.
hamer_fan
Member
K, guys. Granted I'm new to this forum and didn't read every response letter by letter... so I may be a little redundant in my response.
I've been playing about 15 years and I believe that great tone comes when you get the sound that's in your head to come out through your speaker(s). The fact is, every detail can, not necessarily does, affect your tone. Your pick attack, pickups, strings (brand and gauge), cables, effects chain, amp and the airspace you're dealing with can color your perfect tone.
Everyone is right when they say that great players are identifiable by their tone no matter what gear they run through. Eric Johnson claims that he can tell what brand of batteries are in his wireless system strictly by the way it affects his tone. So it's just as much in your ear as it is in your gear.
No matter what gear you have, you can tweak, repair, replace or remove any component to try to improve your tone. There's only one way to be a better player though and that's practice coupled with technique. And I definitely agree with everyone who talked about an improved tone making practice easier and more inspirational.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: How many ways are there to get from Tampa Bay to Sacramento? Who knows? In the end it doesn't matter which way you go or how long it takes as long as you know where you want to go and you eventually get there.
I've been playing about 15 years and I believe that great tone comes when you get the sound that's in your head to come out through your speaker(s). The fact is, every detail can, not necessarily does, affect your tone. Your pick attack, pickups, strings (brand and gauge), cables, effects chain, amp and the airspace you're dealing with can color your perfect tone.
Everyone is right when they say that great players are identifiable by their tone no matter what gear they run through. Eric Johnson claims that he can tell what brand of batteries are in his wireless system strictly by the way it affects his tone. So it's just as much in your ear as it is in your gear.
No matter what gear you have, you can tweak, repair, replace or remove any component to try to improve your tone. There's only one way to be a better player though and that's practice coupled with technique. And I definitely agree with everyone who talked about an improved tone making practice easier and more inspirational.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: How many ways are there to get from Tampa Bay to Sacramento? Who knows? In the end it doesn't matter which way you go or how long it takes as long as you know where you want to go and you eventually get there.
Lou
Well-known member
Octavarius said:Tone is in the fingers, as they say.
Playing should always go first. Good players can even make a bad amp sound good. If you play crappy through a very good amp/tone, it'll still sound crappy.
Lou
Well-known member
Octavarius said:Tone is in the fingers, as they say.
Playing should always go first. Good players can even make a bad amp sound good. If you play crappy through a very good amp/tone, it'll still sound crappy.
how true.....
Tone is in the fingers and good players can make anything sound good.
if you can't play well you don't get good tone
AllNothing
Member
I think that both are important:
If you suck at playing, then your 10000 $ gear won't save you.
But, if you are a really awesome player, then maybe you deserve somethiing better than a Squier and a 15W solid state amp.
So, both things must grow up together: as you get better on guitar, you buy something you need (a new guitar, a new amp, or maybe simply a new pedal to get more sounds) and so you can say that you play better, and sound better.
If you suck at playing, then your 10000 $ gear won't save you.
But, if you are a really awesome player, then maybe you deserve somethiing better than a Squier and a 15W solid state amp.
So, both things must grow up together: as you get better on guitar, you buy something you need (a new guitar, a new amp, or maybe simply a new pedal to get more sounds) and so you can say that you play better, and sound better.
mystidream
Well-known member
jdurso said:
+1. Couldn't agree with you more.
Turumbar82
Well-known member
I think your equipment can limit your ability. If Satch is playing on a squier through a fender frontman 15w amp he'll be able to make the amp sound good but he'll be limited with what he can do.
It's like making Michael Andretti drive a Ford Aspire.
There's only so much you can do with the equipment you have.
On the other side of it...if you have great equipment but don't know how to use it then it's useless. It's like putting a kid fresh out of the dmv with his learners permit into a Lamborghini. He's not going to have the experience and know how to put it to it's fullest potential.
I think there are stepping stones to great tone that coincide with playing ability.
It's like making Michael Andretti drive a Ford Aspire.
There's only so much you can do with the equipment you have.
On the other side of it...if you have great equipment but don't know how to use it then it's useless. It's like putting a kid fresh out of the dmv with his learners permit into a Lamborghini. He's not going to have the experience and know how to put it to it's fullest potential.
I think there are stepping stones to great tone that coincide with playing ability.
beretta9m2f said:
Actually .. 'style' (to me) relates more to playing skills once they have developed and become integrated into a player's 'sound'. For example, as the player develops a vibrato, and becomes proficient at it, it's not unlikely that it could become part of a 'signature tone' marked with unique nuances in 'style' that make it his or her own. Finger pressure affects the 'tone' of the vibrato, as does picking strength, finger placement and space. The way you hold your guitar can add or mute harmonics which will affect the tone.
I don't see how they can be separated. It can't be over looked. A good part of a player's tone is 'in the fingers' and that's just the nature of the beast.
Thank you! I'm glad someone said that. Vibrato and bends are so very, very important and often overlooked in most beginners. Not only does it help develop tone, but many other aspects of playing. This and other techniques are very important for developing a tone. If you're a metal player then palm muting is another aspect that directly translates to your tone.MikeK said:
I used to play with this guy many years back (15+ yrs?)... he was hands-down WAY better than me. He could shred scales clean and lightning fast, knew all the chords in the book and all of that fun stuff. But you know what? Everyone I talked to, including musicians, prefered the way I played over him. No matter what amp he used he just sounded terrible. I'm not sure how to explain it, but he had a way of making our friends mark4 sound bad. He had a marshall and sounded even worse on that. He had the anti-midas touch... it's weird, I can't really explain it...
Sorry UltraGary, you can't expect us all to resist....
Bourque
Well-known member
What good would it be for someone to own a McLaren F1 if he/she didn't know how to drive.
mr_fender
Well-known member
I think it's a combination of both. Skill should come first, but great tone inspires you and pushes you beyond your limits. I only wish I had stuff like the line6 Pod when I was starting out. For a beginner, digital modeling is a blessing. It gives you so many options to explore and find your own tone. For a couple hundred bucks you can pick up a decent guitar and modeling practice amp and actually sound decent. Good enough to even gig with for most. Once you get good enough to actually make use of better gear, then you can upgrade.
A great tube amp can make you shine like never before, but it can also magnify your mistakes 100 fold! It's a double edged sword.
That said, lesson one for anyone that plays any instrument:
LEARN HOW TO TUNE YOUR INSTRUMENT!!!!!!
I can't tell you how many times I've seen bands with people playing out of tune. I don't care how many notes per second you can play or how good you are at sweep picking... if you can't tune your guitar, you sound like ****. Period!
A great tube amp can make you shine like never before, but it can also magnify your mistakes 100 fold! It's a double edged sword.
That said, lesson one for anyone that plays any instrument:
LEARN HOW TO TUNE YOUR INSTRUMENT!!!!!!
I can't tell you how many times I've seen bands with people playing out of tune. I don't care how many notes per second you can play or how good you are at sweep picking... if you can't tune your guitar, you sound like ****. Period!
Restless Rocks
Well-known member
+1 on all said. IMO however, I've seen a large number of students become discouraged because they could only afford a POS guitar that could not be set up properly and was difficult to play. A great amp is necessary but meaningless unless you have developed your chops as a musician and a guitarist. If you can't start with both I recommend getting the best guitar (within reason) that you can afford and have it set up and intonated properly by a professional guitar tech, (not one of the twerps at the GC counter) who understands what makes a great playing and sounding guitar what it is. I've seen plenty of decent guitars that were difficult to play because they were set up by some poser who had no idea as well as many cheaper guitars that were set up to play very well. Then: shut off your computer and become one with it.
djw
Well-known member
Oh, goody! :lol:
Tone = subjective: true. However...
There are certainly lots of good players with crappy tone (as opposed to players whose tone you just don't appreciate). That's mainly because their technique only extends to the ability to play the right notes. Good gear might get them on their way to having good tone eventually, but it's not a given. They still have to get there through their hands.
A great player can usually get good tone even with crappy gear, but a crappy player will never get good tone, even with great gear. You simply cannot get good tone if you don't know how to play.
But this does not necessarily imply the reverse: knowing how to play does not automatically lead to good tone.
Tone is just another facet of knowing how to play your instrument, ANY instrument, like knowing your scales, chord theory, whatever. Having an ear for it helps, but there are lots of intangibles in there too. Playing with confidence and accuracy is a lot of it, though not all. Attack, nuance, dynamics, etc... all of these things come into play.
Knowing how to use your specific instrument helps too, which is where the gear (and familiarity with it) comes in. But technique, playing ability: always comes first.
Tone = subjective: true. However...
There are certainly lots of good players with crappy tone (as opposed to players whose tone you just don't appreciate). That's mainly because their technique only extends to the ability to play the right notes. Good gear might get them on their way to having good tone eventually, but it's not a given. They still have to get there through their hands.
A great player can usually get good tone even with crappy gear, but a crappy player will never get good tone, even with great gear. You simply cannot get good tone if you don't know how to play.
But this does not necessarily imply the reverse: knowing how to play does not automatically lead to good tone.
Tone is just another facet of knowing how to play your instrument, ANY instrument, like knowing your scales, chord theory, whatever. Having an ear for it helps, but there are lots of intangibles in there too. Playing with confidence and accuracy is a lot of it, though not all. Attack, nuance, dynamics, etc... all of these things come into play.
Knowing how to use your specific instrument helps too, which is where the gear (and familiarity with it) comes in. But technique, playing ability: always comes first.
jdurso
Well-known member
i thought about this stand point from my other love... brass
i studied the euphonium for about 15 years before i picked up a guitar and what i found with any brass instrument is it came down to your touch or your chops (lip strength/attack). the best comparison on guitar i can think of is the dynamics of your fretting and picking (which have been mentioned). Has nothing to do with how fast you play, how many scales you know, or what style you play. so if thats what most of you are referring to as "technique" i agree. I wasnt the fastest, i couldnt siight read the best, and it took me more practice time to master a piece, but i was grade A in terms of my tone (which had a lot to do with my teacher who preached it).
Now to the flip side. For many years i played a **** ***, beginner level Jupiter Euphonium... my chops were almost fully developed but the think never stayed in tune and developed leaks (pinhead sized holes that cause air leaks) like no other. So my first big purchase (with some hlep from grandma) was a top of the line Yamaha Euphonium... not only did i sound better x10 but aided me improving other aspects of my playing (speed because the valves triggered faster).
So my point is the street goes both ways. One can aid the other as well as hinder the other depending on the gear and the player. But again i go back to my original post; play what makes you happy, what gives you inspiration and enjoy it. Good gear wont make you a better player but it might make you practice more which will feed into the process of becoming better at whatever it is you do (your style) and in the end you'll find your tone.
i studied the euphonium for about 15 years before i picked up a guitar and what i found with any brass instrument is it came down to your touch or your chops (lip strength/attack). the best comparison on guitar i can think of is the dynamics of your fretting and picking (which have been mentioned). Has nothing to do with how fast you play, how many scales you know, or what style you play. so if thats what most of you are referring to as "technique" i agree. I wasnt the fastest, i couldnt siight read the best, and it took me more practice time to master a piece, but i was grade A in terms of my tone (which had a lot to do with my teacher who preached it).
Now to the flip side. For many years i played a **** ***, beginner level Jupiter Euphonium... my chops were almost fully developed but the think never stayed in tune and developed leaks (pinhead sized holes that cause air leaks) like no other. So my first big purchase (with some hlep from grandma) was a top of the line Yamaha Euphonium... not only did i sound better x10 but aided me improving other aspects of my playing (speed because the valves triggered faster).
So my point is the street goes both ways. One can aid the other as well as hinder the other depending on the gear and the player. But again i go back to my original post; play what makes you happy, what gives you inspiration and enjoy it. Good gear wont make you a better player but it might make you practice more which will feed into the process of becoming better at whatever it is you do (your style) and in the end you'll find your tone.
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