MarkofXlnts
Well-known member
I have seen a few incredible players using what I would consider "garbage" equipment, and they sounded spectacular. Develop your skill, then worry about the goodies later.
Tone or skill ? What should come first ?
- Thread starter Big Harry
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Excellent examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9v5e1TTwts&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxq0xvSJojw
Less than excellent examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI6a0PtHYxc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoENva0UCCM
Actually the tones on the last vids are somewhat bearable, but the playing was less than stellar. And by nature, the amp only flaunts the not-so-awesomeness even more. If you post on this board I'm sorry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9v5e1TTwts&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxq0xvSJojw
Less than excellent examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI6a0PtHYxc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoENva0UCCM
Actually the tones on the last vids are somewhat bearable, but the playing was less than stellar. And by nature, the amp only flaunts the not-so-awesomeness even more. If you post on this board I'm sorry.
djw
Well-known member
Interesting. This is where the subjectivity comes in, and actually where I expose my ignorance (and curiosity) about "good" high gain.
Just to give an example of where I'm coming from subjectively, I really like Carlos Santana, and he's a giant player and all -- but I don't really like much of his tone since, oh, Caravanserai or slightly later. And I wouldn't argue that his tone is bad at all -- I just don't really get it. It's... too buttery smooth, like all that tube saturation is obscuring the stray harmonics and attack characteristics that interest me more about his earlier sound.
The Satch clip is great because you can really see and hear his attack and the intent behind each note; they're articulate and clear and ring with clear texture even though there's a lot of gain underneath. You hear him *and* the guitar. I'm also actually not really into this stuff, but he's obviously a phenomenal player and this shows why. (Any idea what amp is used in this clip?)
The Eklundh clip is hilarious, and he's also a phenomenon, and he makes that crappy rig do more than it normally would -- but that tone drives me crazy. I don't hear any guitar-driven character in there, just lots of gain and sustain and squealing harmonics. And a lot of notes -- very deftly and clearly played, of course.
So to my ears, the Eklundh clip doesn't demonstrate an ear for good tone, as I think of it -- or necessarily a lack of one, either. I guess my question is: what constitutes a good high-gain tone, exactly? Most examples I've heard in this department tend to sacrifice any hint of wood in the guitar, for the sake of sizzling, sustain-ey distortion coming from hot pickups driving the amp super hard. I know it isn't "fuzz" we're after here, but... what?
I'm actually really curious.
Obviously, I'm fairly old-school.
Just to give an example of where I'm coming from subjectively, I really like Carlos Santana, and he's a giant player and all -- but I don't really like much of his tone since, oh, Caravanserai or slightly later. And I wouldn't argue that his tone is bad at all -- I just don't really get it. It's... too buttery smooth, like all that tube saturation is obscuring the stray harmonics and attack characteristics that interest me more about his earlier sound.
The Satch clip is great because you can really see and hear his attack and the intent behind each note; they're articulate and clear and ring with clear texture even though there's a lot of gain underneath. You hear him *and* the guitar. I'm also actually not really into this stuff, but he's obviously a phenomenal player and this shows why. (Any idea what amp is used in this clip?)
The Eklundh clip is hilarious, and he's also a phenomenon, and he makes that crappy rig do more than it normally would -- but that tone drives me crazy. I don't hear any guitar-driven character in there, just lots of gain and sustain and squealing harmonics. And a lot of notes -- very deftly and clearly played, of course.
So to my ears, the Eklundh clip doesn't demonstrate an ear for good tone, as I think of it -- or necessarily a lack of one, either. I guess my question is: what constitutes a good high-gain tone, exactly? Most examples I've heard in this department tend to sacrifice any hint of wood in the guitar, for the sake of sizzling, sustain-ey distortion coming from hot pickups driving the amp super hard. I know it isn't "fuzz" we're after here, but... what?
I'm actually really curious.
Obviously, I'm fairly old-school. trem said:
Djw, "good" or "bad" tone is definitely subjective, but that's not what I was trying to point out. What I was trying to show is that both Satch and IA sounded extremely like themselves, whether they are using cheap guitar into cheap pedal into small practice amp (like in the vids I showed), or whether they are using their normal gear, thereby confirming that most of their tone come from their fingers. Listen to IA's albums to get an idea how he normally sound.
djw
Well-known member
Ah, ok I see what you're saying. I thought you were making the point about getting good tone out of bad gear, which is not quite the same thing. Right on.trem said:
MusicManJP6
Well-known member
First off - Cool thread...
Skill and Tone go hand in hand. At least for me anyways. When you first start playing you are just happy that any notes are coming out of your amp and guitar at all. Tone is just whatever you hear coming out of the amp at that point. As you mature with your skills and experience and your taste for music then you start to understand what comprises good tone and what it takes to achieve it. A noob with a fancy amp sounds like **** still because they don't have the trained ear to dial the amp in for a good sound nor do they have the skills to pull off a certain tone. As you get better and train your ear and your hands your tone will increase naturally just from experience. Something like that anyway!
Skill and Tone go hand in hand. At least for me anyways. When you first start playing you are just happy that any notes are coming out of your amp and guitar at all. Tone is just whatever you hear coming out of the amp at that point. As you mature with your skills and experience and your taste for music then you start to understand what comprises good tone and what it takes to achieve it. A noob with a fancy amp sounds like **** still because they don't have the trained ear to dial the amp in for a good sound nor do they have the skills to pull off a certain tone. As you get better and train your ear and your hands your tone will increase naturally just from experience. Something like that anyway!
R_ADKINS80
Well-known member
rabies said:
I've heard this said so many times on this board. "Tone is in the fingers."
oh yeah? well what if you play rhythm in a metal band? it's basically all power chords and riffing. some vibrato and bending here and there obviously. a lot of the tone comes from the pickups and amp and settings. if you don't have a hi-gain amp with hot pups, how can you pull off artificial harmonics?? but i guess that's more technique than tone...
quote]
My school of thought exactly. I am a metal rythm player and I take my tone very seriously. I CAN NOT get my tone from anything solid state, or even a Marshall, Laney, Crate tube amp, or with passive pick-ups. My tone has to come from my Boogie (or a 5150) and EMG's. I have plugged my guitar into friend's rigs and I can't stand to play any longer than a few minutes because I hate the sound coming out of the speakers. My playing isn't any different, the gear just can't cut the tone I want, end of story. I have been playing for almost 18 years now and my experience is that my tone is minimally affected by my playing, but majorly by my gear.
It still applies. Palm muting can sound terrible in the wrong hands (palms). Go to youtube and do a search for Master of Puppets, there should be tons of examples of good amps, dialed in good, but they sound terrible because of the way they're playing.clutch71 said:
Bourque
Well-known member
I find the longer I play the more and more attention I'm paying to my hands more so then the gear. I have a Mark IV and I like it really well but when I first got it I didn't think it sounded that great at all. The difference now is I realized that it magnified my bad technique which was more masked the not so good amp I had before. But I stuck it out and have been playing and practicing as consistently as I can for the 2 years since I had it and now it's absolutely rewarding to turn it on! The difference was in that time frame I realized that you can get a different sound by the angle the pick hits the strings, where you pick on the strings, different patterns of picking, your hand placement on the frets, it all ties together. These are things I guess I knew of but never gave much thought to.
I'm far from the best out there but I take a page out of Joe Satriani's book where he said "play what you want to play". And for the most part i can translate what's in my head to the guitar. That really took off though when I looked in detail at the instrument and really tried to approach all the different sounds you can get out of it. Never mind the amp yet.
So I'm on board that a large part of tone is in the fingers argument. Obviously the amp fills in the rest. In the case of my Mark IV, I notice a big difference in it to other amps I play. It's responsive and I can bring out the sound I like from it. But it took playing a professional amp to make me realize I had to step up my own game. To me that works in big part in conjunction with the knobs and switches. They both have an important roll.
I'm far from the best out there but I take a page out of Joe Satriani's book where he said "play what you want to play". And for the most part i can translate what's in my head to the guitar. That really took off though when I looked in detail at the instrument and really tried to approach all the different sounds you can get out of it. Never mind the amp yet.
So I'm on board that a large part of tone is in the fingers argument. Obviously the amp fills in the rest. In the case of my Mark IV, I notice a big difference in it to other amps I play. It's responsive and I can bring out the sound I like from it. But it took playing a professional amp to make me realize I had to step up my own game. To me that works in big part in conjunction with the knobs and switches. They both have an important roll.
Gtr_Pkr
Well-known member
This is all great advice!! My opinion and experience is that get some decent starter gear, and keep practicing. I did a lot of playing and practicing before I bought my first Marshall. Even more before I got my first Mesa. As you grow and change, through practice, research, and jamming with others, your tone and gear will change too!
jdurso
Well-known member
Gtr_Pkr said:
probably the best post in this thread
dodger916
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+1. We're called guitar players, not amplifier players. As one's skill and musicianship develops, so will one's ear for tone. I found jamming with others the best way to develop musicianship.jdurso said:
metal190
Well-known member
People are consistently confusing two things in here: tone and style.
Tone is not in the fingers. Style is. I can play in certain styles that will change the tone (muting, pick attack, how close to the neck or bridge I'm picking, etc.) but that doesn't mean that style is equal to tone. As has been pointed out, there are a lot of things that directly influence tone that have nothing to do with playing style. Satch can still sound like Satch on a piece of crap guitar and amp, but that doesn't mean it will magically produce good tone.
Ultimately I think they will necessarily go hand in hand. It has also been pointed out that as people have gotten better at guitar they've gained a better ear for real tone. They go together. As your skill improves, so will your sense for a good tone. It doesn't happen at the same rate for everyone, but there is a correlation. It's kind of a moot point really - I don't think anyone does or should do one exclusively before even considering the other. But at the end of the day you ought to focus on what you enjoy. If seeking a grail tone gives you more thrills than perfecting your chops, do that. If you don't care what it sounds like, you just love ripping it up, by all means, go ahead. I mean, why do we get into music anyway if not for our own enjoyment? Focus on what you enjoy and just know that as you get better with one, you'll get better at the other.
Tone is not in the fingers. Style is. I can play in certain styles that will change the tone (muting, pick attack, how close to the neck or bridge I'm picking, etc.) but that doesn't mean that style is equal to tone. As has been pointed out, there are a lot of things that directly influence tone that have nothing to do with playing style. Satch can still sound like Satch on a piece of crap guitar and amp, but that doesn't mean it will magically produce good tone.
Ultimately I think they will necessarily go hand in hand. It has also been pointed out that as people have gotten better at guitar they've gained a better ear for real tone. They go together. As your skill improves, so will your sense for a good tone. It doesn't happen at the same rate for everyone, but there is a correlation. It's kind of a moot point really - I don't think anyone does or should do one exclusively before even considering the other. But at the end of the day you ought to focus on what you enjoy. If seeking a grail tone gives you more thrills than perfecting your chops, do that. If you don't care what it sounds like, you just love ripping it up, by all means, go ahead. I mean, why do we get into music anyway if not for our own enjoyment? Focus on what you enjoy and just know that as you get better with one, you'll get better at the other.
This is what Allan Holdsworth says about it:
“Gear is important, but its purpose is to fine-tune your sound, not to make your sound,” says Holdsworth. “That comes from the hands.”
Check one of his clips with Soft Machine on a SG and Vox, and then find something of this year. You'll hear a difference, but you'll also immediately recognize the player.
Take the solo from Child In Time on In Rock. Sounds typical Blackmore, doesn't it? If I hadn't read he was using a ES on that one, I'd believed it was a strat.
Gilmour's solo on Another Brick pt2. Sounds quintessentially Gilmour, doesn't it, although it's a LP direct in a console.
I think tone is in the fingers, and you'll get a better tone if you can play better (which does not necessarily mean faster) and have better gear.
Jan
“Gear is important, but its purpose is to fine-tune your sound, not to make your sound,” says Holdsworth. “That comes from the hands.”
Check one of his clips with Soft Machine on a SG and Vox, and then find something of this year. You'll hear a difference, but you'll also immediately recognize the player.
Take the solo from Child In Time on In Rock. Sounds typical Blackmore, doesn't it? If I hadn't read he was using a ES on that one, I'd believed it was a strat.
Gilmour's solo on Another Brick pt2. Sounds quintessentially Gilmour, doesn't it, although it's a LP direct in a console.
I think tone is in the fingers, and you'll get a better tone if you can play better (which does not necessarily mean faster) and have better gear.
Jan
metal190
Well-known member
Definitely a fair point.
And I may have an untrained ear (okay, I definitely have an untrained ear) but it's amazing to hear Petrucci play his old stuff on his musicman guitars and he can get it to sound exactly like he did when he was on an ibanez.
I liked the part of the above post where he mentioned that playing better is not equal to playing faster. Gilmour is no shredder, yet he consistently finds a place on "greatest guitarists" lists. There's a reason for that.
I guess my only point is that style (which plays an integral role in tone) is not equal to tone. In other words, it is not the sole component of tone.
And I may have an untrained ear (okay, I definitely have an untrained ear) but it's amazing to hear Petrucci play his old stuff on his musicman guitars and he can get it to sound exactly like he did when he was on an ibanez.
I liked the part of the above post where he mentioned that playing better is not equal to playing faster. Gilmour is no shredder, yet he consistently finds a place on "greatest guitarists" lists. There's a reason for that.
I guess my only point is that style (which plays an integral role in tone) is not equal to tone. In other words, it is not the sole component of tone.
djw
Well-known member
Man, I am just plain long-winded on this. But I can't resist batting it back up in the air.
I maintain that tone is largely in the hands. Gear is part of the equation, but tone is a result of how your hands interact with your instrument, and with amplified stuff like we play, how that instrument interacts with the gear you play it through.
Style can mean anything, and it almost always includes tone as an aspect. But they inform one another tremendously; they're part of the feedback loop.
Obviously your picking style affects your tone, as does the way you finger your actual notes and chords. The guitar is a fretted instrument, but that doesn't mean that each time you hit that 5th position G (or whatever) it sounds exactly the same. There are harmonics, microphonic tuning variances due to pressure on the strings both laterally and vertically, vibrato style, etc., and other intangible factors that go into the way a note rings when you play it. The consistency of these variances in your playing contributes to a tonal aspect of your overall style. But tone is what you hear when you play the way you do, and it evolves as you learn to play what pleases you.
Gear enters the equation and adds its own variables. Someone said we're guitar players, not amp players -- which is funny and mostly true. I haven't heard anyone disagree with the belief that even if you took Petrucci's guitar out of his hands and just played a few bar chords through his rig, you still wouldn't sound like Petrucci playing bar chords. But conversely, if he came to my house and started twiddling with my Lone Star, he'd get sounds out of it that would be out of reach for me. This is partly because tone is in the hands, of course. But it's also because he knows how to get what he wants out of that amp, AND he knows how to interact with it through his guitar in HIS way.
Doesn't it always take a while to figure out how to "play" a new amp (geez, especially a Boogie)? Does anyone agree that while some of this is knob-twisting, a lot of it is adjusting your playing to take advantage of whatever gain, compression and harmonics are inherent in the amp's response?
Looks to me like I'm pontificating, which I hate. But I love a good meta discussion. What's my point? Still that tone is in the hands, and furthermore that those hands inform not only the tone directly connected to the guitar itself, but also the tone that results from the interaction between the guitar and the amp. In the hands.
Also, I agree with jdurso about the importance of decent gear when learning to play: it's hard to get going with something that hurts, and good gear feels good to play on. Of course if you have a crap axe, most of this is moot. And if all you've ever had was a solid state Champ, then it can be tough to get a handle on how an amp can feed back into your playing. Then again... who else has seen this? This guy claims he'd only played through a little Tech21 combo before, and he rips. (Watch the movie -- it's huge, but it's really fun.)
I maintain that tone is largely in the hands. Gear is part of the equation, but tone is a result of how your hands interact with your instrument, and with amplified stuff like we play, how that instrument interacts with the gear you play it through.
Style can mean anything, and it almost always includes tone as an aspect. But they inform one another tremendously; they're part of the feedback loop.
Obviously your picking style affects your tone, as does the way you finger your actual notes and chords. The guitar is a fretted instrument, but that doesn't mean that each time you hit that 5th position G (or whatever) it sounds exactly the same. There are harmonics, microphonic tuning variances due to pressure on the strings both laterally and vertically, vibrato style, etc., and other intangible factors that go into the way a note rings when you play it. The consistency of these variances in your playing contributes to a tonal aspect of your overall style. But tone is what you hear when you play the way you do, and it evolves as you learn to play what pleases you.
Gear enters the equation and adds its own variables. Someone said we're guitar players, not amp players -- which is funny and mostly true. I haven't heard anyone disagree with the belief that even if you took Petrucci's guitar out of his hands and just played a few bar chords through his rig, you still wouldn't sound like Petrucci playing bar chords. But conversely, if he came to my house and started twiddling with my Lone Star, he'd get sounds out of it that would be out of reach for me. This is partly because tone is in the hands, of course. But it's also because he knows how to get what he wants out of that amp, AND he knows how to interact with it through his guitar in HIS way.
Doesn't it always take a while to figure out how to "play" a new amp (geez, especially a Boogie)? Does anyone agree that while some of this is knob-twisting, a lot of it is adjusting your playing to take advantage of whatever gain, compression and harmonics are inherent in the amp's response?
Looks to me like I'm pontificating, which I hate. But I love a good meta discussion.
What's my point? Still that tone is in the hands, and furthermore that those hands inform not only the tone directly connected to the guitar itself, but also the tone that results from the interaction between the guitar and the amp. In the hands.Also, I agree with jdurso about the importance of decent gear when learning to play: it's hard to get going with something that hurts, and good gear feels good to play on. Of course if you have a crap axe, most of this is moot. And if all you've ever had was a solid state Champ, then it can be tough to get a handle on how an amp can feed back into your playing. Then again... who else has seen this? This guy claims he'd only played through a little Tech21 combo before, and he rips. (Watch the movie -- it's huge, but it's really fun.)
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