Suitable alternat for SED wing = c= ?

[bandit2013]

I would not believe that Svetlana factory in St. Petersburg (=c=) would be closing, that is not a correct statement. When I saw that my first thought was a market ploy to make the consumer think SED is going out of business. I highly doubt it since they manufacture many other products which are government/medical supported. SED did get themselves in the dirt by making some deals and losing their rights to use their name in the US market simply because of a licensed trade name. It does not matter if they make the best current production audio tube on the planet if they can not sell it due to bad business sense. As for Reflektor company, the Svetlana labeled tubes are okay but not SED's in any way. They may look very similar with the exception of a single getter halo, and what you cannot see (internals) are probably different. Note: Svetlana tubes made for New Sensor by (Reflektor) are identical to Tung Sol 7581 (base is black, where as Svetlana has brown base) and sound the same. enough of that.

Like I said, I do not want to start rumors, but from what I understand on the subject matter, they have been going around for many years. I am seeking an alternate for the SED since I do not want to pay vintage NOS prices for current production tubes (in assumption they are still in manufacture status). I can wait to find out. Even if they shut down production on specific products does not mean that they will stop indefinitely. Unless they indicate that on their web site, or publically announce that is their intentions, makes it difficult to believe one statement from another especially if it makes more profit to the distributor that is selling it.

 

[knotts]

Here's the update that I received this morning from tubesandmore.com (one of the distributors listed on the wingedc.com) website:

"Thank you for contacting us. To the best of our knowledge, the factory is not shutting down. It is not producing tubes at present as it negotiates with its vendors for raw materials, primarily glass."

This seems to match back to swbo101's post. Perhaps it's the same distributor, but in the long term, it looks like they will be back on the market. Maybe just a short drought without those tubes in the market.

On a separate note, I love how were are all obsessed enough to contact dealers, distributors, scour the internet to get to some answers.

 

[swbo101]

knotts - I agree, we are all obsessed.

On a separate note. I have noticed that the 6L6 prices have gone up a bit, around $10 - $15. The distributor I contacted listed the amount that they had in stock and they had about 5x the EL34's opposed to the 6L6's. Maybe the slight draught is driving that price up a bit. Most places have the 6L6's at around $90 and the EL34's at $80. I can deal with $10 more but at that price they are at my ceiling for new production.

 

[knotts]

Here's the response from the other distributor:

"The last we heard was that the factory is NOT closed and they are simply working on sourcing raw materials. We currently have large quantities of their tubes in stock."

Everyone seems to have the same story so I would tend to believe there's some merit there.

 

[swbo101]

Yes I agree, the distributor I contacted has thousands of tubes on stock. It was CE Distributor.

 

[swbo101]

Anyway, now that the panick has subsided........

To bandit's original question...

I guess I would start with the Tung-Sol new production tubes. I haven't tried them yet (I have for pre-amp but not power, love it in V1), but everyone that I know who has, had good things to say. At half the price of =C=, that's a good starting point.

 

[bandit2013]

At least there is some form of answer to the eluding dilemma. I found it hard to believe one of the great audio tube manufacturers would drop the product just because of the US trade name issue. Sorry for the excitement.

Considering the cost increase.... :shock: I can wait until production begins again.

Alternates for those in desperate need of SED 6L6GC tubes, you may find the TAD 6L6GC-STR may be to your liking. My order came today. Here's what I got. Replacement EH 5u4GB (was long overdue). This one looks identical to the Mesa original. 3 Mullard re-issue 12ax7, I compared that to the Sovetek 12ax7LPS (may be the same tube with different printing). Matched quad of TAD6L6GC-STR, and if that was not satisfying, a matched quad of JJ6CA7.

Last night in lieu of the shipment notice, I pulled the chassis from the shell and placed it on the 412 cab. Powered it up and wanted to trace which tube or tubes were contributing to the hum I started to get. Tung Sol 12ax7 cured that problem in v3-v6. I had EH12ax7 in there previously. V7 remained unchanged (sovtek 12ax7lps). Then came V1-V3, still had a slight hum on CH3, however, CH1 and CH2 were extremely quiet. Pulled out my stash of tubes and found three that had nice tone, and very little if at all 60Hz hum. These were old used Mesa tubes, Chinese clips and square getter. Despite what may claim as a fizzy tube, in the Mark V they sound really good.

Out of the box, my first tube to install was the 5U4GB. Guess what, 8) no more hum at all. I returned what I thought may have been the cause of the hum, all I could hear was silence. Had the gain and volume on all channels including the master at a level that would have popped the eardrums had there been a signal on the input. Trial run and the GT6L6R-2 (SED) sounded better than ever. I did get a replacement JAN rectifier tube but it was a $39.00 Dud, still have not heard from Doug on the RMA evaluation. I had my baseline dialed in with the SED's. Of course I had to install two of the Mullards. V1 and V3.
Preamp tube arrangement: V1 Mull, V2 EH, V3 Mull, V4 TS, V5 TS, V6 EH, and V7 matched and balanced triode SvTk LPS.
I was digging the new life I found in the SED tubes, just did not want to change them out just yet.

I installed the TAD6L6GC-STR first since I still had the SED sound in my head. CH1 was amazing and had similar character in the modes I used the most (clean/fat). CH2 :mrgreen: CH3 :shock: Chaulk this tube on the top of my A list. These tubes are incredible. I feared they would be too dark, not at all. If I was blind, I would not be able to tell the difference between the SED and the TAD. On second thought, if the SED's were new I probably would since they are a bit brighter out of the box. What I like, the complex harmonics of these tubes in CH2 crunch and CH3 (extreme and IV) are very much the same if not slightly more enhanced than the SED tubes. I guess there is magic to those tubes that have dual getter cups than those that share a single getter on each post. I am impressed with the TAD as I am with the SED. Both are very satisfying to listen to, are very articulate, gives you that touch sensitive response. I thank those in hear that have posted their praise in the forums on both brands of tubes.

Now for the other side of the pond, JJ6CA7. These are a really well made tube. Just looking at the internals is pleasing enough. After firing up full power, I gave the tubes time to warm up. I expected they may be similar to the EL34s in warm up time. :shock: DANG these tube rock. They may have a slight different character and tone, but they offer the same complex harmonic content I craved from the SED 6L6GC. Ran it through all the channels. CH2 and CH3 not that much different sounded excellent. CH1 on the other hand, closer to a vintage tone, cleans were on the threshold of clip, not in a bad way either, it actually sounded awesome. There is no comparison to the EH-EL34 that I have. Those were thin and tasteless unless you ramped the volume up beyond human tolerance then they blossomed into greatness. The 6CA7 definitely has the full tone of a 6L6GC, may not have the top end, but this is one sweet quad of tubes to have in a Head. I would not use them in a combo since they are very much similar to the EL34 in mechanical tube noise. That would drive me nuts. They sound great if you do not mind the rattle, it is not as loud and annoying as the EL34. Overall the 6Ca7 is a great tube, this one would fall in 3rd place. SED is in 1st/2nd competing with the TAD.

Vocal tubes that rattle and will be noticed in a combo amp: Mesa 6L6GC STR420 (these sound incredible but they are mechanically noisy), EH el34 (noisiest tube I ever heard) , Tung Sol 7581 (they were quiet at first but they also like to sing and vibrate almost as loud as the EL34). Svetlana 6L6GC (New sensor, not SED) noise is present but not apparent. Actually all tube sill generate vibration. SED, TAD they all make the noise, the ones I listed above were more prone. Also note: JJ6CA7 and TAD may not fit most applications. If you have a combo amp (mark IV, Mark V) with an EV or Fane Studio speaker, or other brand that has an enormous driver magnet that may be close or almost touching the outer tube, both TAD 6L6GC and the JJ6CA7 are much longer than the standard 6L6GC tubes. There may be an interference such that you may not be able to install the tube closest to the speaker driver. This probably will not apply to many Mark IV or Mark V combo owners. On the other hand if you still have the MC90, not an issue so go ahead and get these to try.

I spent less money on the TAD and JJ6Ca7 than buying a quad of SEDs. I will see how long they last, if they go as far as the SED tubes, I will be happy. Time to spend playing the guitar than typing on the computer

 

[bandit2013]

Finally got the turtle back into its shell. Hearing the 6CA7 with reverb, priceless. :mrgreen:

I am pathetically amused by the tone I am getting from the Mark V with the 6CA7. I really sort of like the dirt on the clean channel. Now I am getting those vintage tones I wanted all along. Tweed mode sound better than the crunch mode of CH2. I figured it would sound really good since I like it better with the EL34 than I did with a 6L6GC. Now it sounds out of this world. I am having difficulty putting it all into perspective. That little bit of tube rattle I no longer hear it once the amp chassis was returned to its rightful place. I would definitely stock up on this tube. The EL34 drop in replacement 6CA7 is definitely the way to go, especially if you like that vintage vibe of the 60/70's. It does not stop there either. I will have to change my tube line up again. No 1. JJ 6CA7. Out of the box it is perfect. No 2. TAD6L6GC-STR Out of the box it is perfect, no ice picking here. Both these tube almost sound the same. Most important aspect is that complex harmonic distortion that rings like the SED. I though SED's were the absolute best, but from what I recall they were a bit over the top on the highs and had to tone things down with Tung Sol. Before the 6CA7 and TAD 6L6, the SED tube was the best I have heard. Now that is no longer valid. Don't get me wrong, I still love the SED tubes. They still sound great though all the abuse I have given them. Other than the spectacular harmonic content and detail, they are by far the most quiet tube I have used with little or no hum or hiss (as long as all the other tubes are up to par).

It is very hard to assign a number to the SED in terms of favorite. When it comes to out of box experience it would have to be third in the lineup (due to brightness that takes a while to settle down). If I wanted that pure clean tone for CH1 then SED would be the top of my list. So to answer my original question: Suitable alternate for SED wing =c=: JJ6CA7 or TAD6L6GC-STR.

Tung Sol 7581 did sound very close to the SED, although it was extremely bright. They are now in use in my Mark IV at the moment. Svetlana 6L6GC, not bad. tone was a few brownie points lower than the 7581. Harmonic content not as complex as the SED (to me that is my bench mark tube to compare all others). Mesa 6L6GC STR440, they are ok. Mesa 6L6GC STR420 (out of production) were the top, I would have to say they were much closer to the SED tube than the Svetlana(new sensor) impostor.

 

[swbo101]

bandit - just curious - have you tried the Tung-Sol 6L6 or their EL34?

Also why their 7581?

Thanks

 

[sprocket]

Thanx for the info there Bandit .

 

[jnoel64]

I've used EH 6CA7s for years in a Carvin Vai Legacy and won't use any other tube in that amp. Haven't ventured down that path in either of my Boogies just yet, but probably will eventually. Love the tones from those tubes! It's like the best of both worlds 6L6 and EL34.

 

[bandit2013]

bandit - just curious - have you tried the Tung-Sol 6L6 or their EL34?

Also why their 7581?

Thanks

My first attempt to order SED tubes from Doug's tubes, Doug had emailed me on my selection and stated the tube he had would not be suitable for my amp. He did suggest the NOS Groove tubes that were relabeled Svetlana/SED tubes (SEDs before they changed logo to =C=, GT6L6R-2. I did some research on tubes and decided on the 7581 since the reviews seemed promising. They sounded great out of the box. It did not take long for them to go flat. Since this is the first amp I ever owned with a tube rectifier, I did not realize the was causing issues with the overall tone. Once I thought the 7581 went sour I decided to take Doug up on his offer to get the NOS GT6L6R-2. Internals of that tube are identical to the SED tube so there is no reason to believe they are not the real McCoy. The rec tube that I ordered at the same time as the 7581 turned out to be a dud. The past 8 months I was using a tiring rectifier tube. In other words the 7581 were okay. Also purchased a quad of Svetlana's (not SED's) for my Mark IV. After getting the NOS Groove tubes, I was convinced this was the best tube ever simply by playing through them in the Mark V, followed by the Mark IV. I compared all of the tubes in both amps. Svetlana (by new sensor) are identical to the 7581 (tung Sol) in plate and getter construction. There may be more going on than what meets the eye, the only obvious difference between the two is the color of the base. The difference in tone between the Svetlana and TS 7581 is negligible. Both of these are 30W tubes. The TS6L6 may be the same tube, or it could be identical to the 5881 (25W). Two differently branded tubes made by Reflektor company in Saratov look and sound the same, why try another from the same manufacturer which may be identical to what I already have?
Tung Sol EL34, well I did get EH EL34. I could have just ordered the Mullard re-issue. Also what is the likelihood that the EH EL34 is the same as the TS version, Sovtek version, etc... all made under the same roof?

I am not writing them off, and my pocket is only so deep. I do like the EH EL34 when you drive them really hard, they sound awesome but I would not be able to enjoy the Mark V as much since I really have to push the envelope and threshold of my neighbors to get them to sound good. As for the JJ6CA7,first off wanted to try out tubes from a different manufacturer - this is assuming they are made elsewhere and not Reflektor company. This tube had some good reviews. And I believe I do not own any JJ power tubes.

 

[bandit2013]

seems you can type only so many characters, and then poof to the message you were trying to write.

I guess in other words, I remember how the 5881 Sovetek sounded in my Mark III and decided to try 5881 but in a 30W version which is the 7581. Both are military grade tubes that have different standards than the other general audio tubes.

Tung Sol tubes are not bad. Reflektor company makes many brands of tubes, some are identical to others, some are not. Just knowing which one's are different is difficult to determine unless they were revealed as the same tube in a review or evaluation/analysis. I only have to sets of equipment for evaluation (ears and eyes).

Perhaps my subject should have been stated as "tubes that sound identical to SED's in terms of detail and harmonic content"
"How about some SED wing = c=, they sound like SED's right" . When I think of the Reflektor company, the New Sensor distribution of all the various branded tubes manufactured side by side under the same roof, the only difference is the logo, pPretty soon it all boils down to SPAM, SPAM and SPAM, eggs and SPAM. (you have to imagine the Monty Python "SPAM" song playing in the background. ) I am sure there are more intricate details that may set the various brands apart from each other, but there are many that are the same with different logo's (and sometimes different prices). They are not bad tubes , I will still use them. The SED 6L6GC will still be my favorite. TAD6L6GC-STR and JJ6CA7 are amazing tubes. Not sure how the EH6CA7 compares to JJ6CA7 in sound quality, saturation character, harmonic complexity, detail, etc.. They are both defined as a 6CA7 but the EH is more traditional in design than the JJ which was termed a hybrid in one or two reviews which made me interested in trying them out.

 

[bandit2013]

When it comes to tubes, speakers, guitars, amps... it all boils down to taste, or what you can afford at the time you got it. (tough to cover all basses on a general statement like that).

Considering the status of the Original tube rectifier (only tube I have not replaced yet until recently) it has tainted my evaluation considerably. My goal was not to evaluate tubes. I just want something that sounds good. Brand of rectifier tube I chose was EH 5U4GB. There is not many 5U4GB to choose from. EH, JJ, or NOS. I did get a Jan/Phillips NOS rectifier but it was a dud. Blew the fuse every time I tried it. One of the rectifier circuits had the anode shorted to the cathode. Should be an open circuit with a multi-meter. As for the Mark V, it tends to run bright. That can be tuned with selection of preamp tubes followed by the final result thought he power tubes. I prefer not to use the speakers as a low pass filter, otherwise it will sound honky. Probably why I like EV or the Fane Studio. Almost spits out what you put into it.

Perhaps this weekend I will revisit the Svetlana 6L6GC, Tung Sol 7581 just for kicks since replacing the 5U4GB made a world of difference in tone of the amp. (I assume that the rectifier tube supplies the preamp tubes, I will have to pull it to confirm this. I think I tried the amp without it before and it did not work). They sound great in the Mark IV but did not sound great in the Mark V with the old rec tube. Will also have to retry the EH EL34 too. Right now I am really digging the JJ6CA7 not sure I want to take them out just yet. Wonder what an integrated quad of EL34 and 6CA7 would sound like. I guess I will have to try it out.

 

[jnoel64]

I spent hundreds of dollars on various brands of tubes before I finally settled on what I liked for my Carvin Vai Legacy. When I landed on the EH 6CA7, I found the best tone for that amp. "True" EL34s all had very "honky" mids. 6L6s were too bright and not enough mids. Every amp is different. I have spent far less on my Mesa amps and I'm sure that has a lot to do with Mesa's engineering.

I have another Carvin, a 1982 X-100B. I put Svetlana 6L6s in that and those gave that amp the best tone it's ever had since I got it new in 82.

The sad part about tone being subjective is that I know my hearing has deteriorated over the years. What sounds good to me now probably didn't 20 years ago, and vice versa. All I know now is that I absolutely love the sound and feel of what I use. So, I guess that's all that truly matters.

 

[mesa metal]

Looks like Svetlana Electron Devices had decided to stop producing audio tubes. I did some looking into it as it was rumored on "the tube store" website. At first I thought this was a market ploy to get charge more for tubes. Turns out the factory is not closed or closing, they just decided to pull the plug on manufacture of audio tubes.

Can anyone suggest an alternate to the SED wing = C = 6L6GC. This has become my favorite tube and I just do not want to pay NOS prices since some may be considered "seconds".

I was thinking of 6CA7 or KT77 and run the amp in EL34 bias mode. Tung Sol 7581 came close but did not last very long in the Mark V. Svetlana 6L6GC sound similar but lack that complex harmonics the SED wing =c= provide. I may try a set of 5881 but they are not 30W tubes. In simple terms the Mark V operates at 22.5W per tube, 25W 5881 may just be too low.

hi bandit,,,,i been really buisy as of late so i havent been on the board in awhile,,but im now running all nos tubes in my mkv(preamp)
any way..back to the sed topic,,,,remember i said that doug was the first vendor to stop selling the winged c tubes cause he knew back then they would stop making those tubes,,,,quality was sub par and they did not test well.......have you tried JJ 6L6,,supposedly they sound similar to the sed c...
they have a great bass response and are not muddy at all....i have them in my 2;90 and they sound awesome and after 6 years in the amp i hear no difference in lack of soud etc..great topic you started here,,,,we all like the sed's but there is always something else out there...

 

[swbo101]

,,,,remember i said that doug was the first vendor to stop selling the winged c tubes cause he knew back then they would stop making those tubes,,,,

Not sure if you read the entire thread. I know, it's 3 pages long, don't blame you if you didn't. Anyway many of us here did our own research and found out that SED is NOT stopping production, you've been misinformed by Doug's tubes.

Just an FYI.

 

[shimmilou]

Seems that Doug's Tubes still has Winged C 6L6 and EL34 tubes available, singles only, but says; "Due to material changes and poor test results, we will no longer be carrying winged =C= tubes."

 

[bandit2013]

I have been using the JJ6CA7, so far I am blown away on how these tubes compare to the SED 6L6GC. Even though it is an EL34 substitute but it sounds much better. Has all of the tones and harmonics I love about the SED6L6GC but lacks the harsh top end that became harder to endure without changing preamp tubes. Same applies to the Svetlana tubes, Tung Sol 7581.

The TAD6L6GC-STR also is comparable to the JJ6CA7. Very similar character without the super sonic high end.

I decided to run all of the various tubes today. Noticed something a bit alarming. I had the amp out of the shell and inverted on top of the 412 cab. All tubes were in sight. I put in the TS7581 to start the 6L6GC evaluation and was going to work my way up to the SED tubes. TS7581 sound great in the Mark IV. However they are very bright in the Mark V. Well to the alarming part: Bend line on the plate began to glow red. Getting hot spots on the plates in 45W mode CH3. With the fx loop active, V8 gets hot, with the FX loop in hard bypass, V9 gets hot. I checked all of the other tubes to see if this same thing happens. Yep. All tubes , 7581, Svetlana 6L6GC, Mesa 6L6GC-STR440 (actually they went almost all cherry red). SED 6L6GC, all of this on the 6L6 bias. The 6CA7 also did this (EL34 bias). Only seems to happen when using CH3 (mark IV and extreme modes). Does the Mark V run the tubes in class A for the 45W mode? Even put the old Rectifier tube back in, same issue. Also occurs in variac mode. This amp runs the tubes a bit on the hot side. 6L6 or EL34 bias. Was this intended or is it a design flaw. At least I still have the Mark IV. That amp sounds incredible through the 412 and it does not eat tubes!

I may trade this amp in for an RA100 or something else if it keeps eating tubes.

 

[bandit2013]

I normally do not keep a hawk eye on tube while they are in operation. However, since my the original tubes in the amp red plated in a short time (not the slight red mark at the seam of the plate, were talking plates glowing almost as bright as the heater element). Assuming this to be normal in 45W mode, and the hot spot cools down rapidly when you stop playing, I guess there is nothing to fear. SED survived 8+ months of this and are still working fine. Also with CH2 set to diode the same thing happens at the plate seam. With tube tracking on CH2 there are no hot spots occurring.

I did manage to ignore this, and sample all of the power tubes I had available with the new rectifier tube.
Comparing them all to the SED 6L6GC=C= tube as a benchmark: they rank in the following order
1. JJ6CA7 . Best overall in all modes in all channels. Complex harmonics almost surpassing the SED 6L6GC. Bass response is bold and punchy. Top end presence is more prominent in the CH1 Compression in CH3 is smooth and defined. Best of all this tube is under $20.00 each.

2. SED 6L6GC. Best 6L6GC tube in current production (assuming they will continue to manufacture them). Bright tube and bold on the low end. Need to dial out the presence controls to prevent ice pick top end. Tweed CH1 and edge CH2 harsh and brittle. All other modes sound great.

3. TAD6L6GC-STR. It is a bit dark. Almost seems dull due to rolled off highs. Top end can be dialed in somewhat with presence and treble control. Similar character to the top two. CH1 clean and fat are sweet, Tweed a bit muddy. This tube performs extremely well with CH3 mkIV and Edge. For chug chug heavy metal, good tube but I think the 6CA7 performs better.

4.a Tung Sol 7581. Deep bass similar to TAD. Top end can get brittle. Harmonic content almost close to the SED 6L6GC, a bit on the thin side for the mids. This tube performs better in the Mark IV combo than in the Mark V head.

4.b. Svetlana 6L6GC (new sensor /reflektor company) . Very close to the TS7581. Harmonic content is close to SED 6L6GC. Bright tube. more mids than 7581. Can be brittle in the Mark V.

Similar to SED 6L6GC in harmonic content should imply that the tube when saturated will take on the swirling distortion effect. Both the Svetlana and ts7581 have this character but is relatively thin compared to the SED 6L6GC. There is definitely a notable difference with all of these tubes in the Mark V head and 412 combination. However, there is no difference between SED 6L6GC and the Svetlana in the Mark IV combo when using the single speaker. Run it through the 412 cab will make a difference. SED 6L6GC sounds wicked compared to 7581 and Svetlana. I could not fit the 6CA7 or TAD into the Mark IV since the FANE speaker magnet does not offer much clearance and did not want to damage the pins or key. I am expecting an Emi Tonker in soon and a cab for the Fane. I may be able to try the alternates soon in the MkIV.