Replaced stock preamp tubes with Tung-Sol reissue 12AX7's...

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Deaj

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I recently replaced the preamp tubes in my MkV combo with Tung-Sol reissue 12AX7's and I'm quite impressed with how much of an improvement this made. The tone across all channel/mode settings is a bit warmer, the top end is smoother, and there's a touch more harmonic swirl (I'm not a big fan of cliche'ic superlatives but they're all we have to describe what we hear it seems). Signal clipping is definitely improved! The Mesa tubes seemed to add a little buzziness (a bit of harshness) to the top end that is no longer present with the Tung-Sol's. This was fairly subtle but noticeable when played side-by-side with the Fuchs ODS. The overdrive now has more of a 'chewy' texture to it and seems to be a bit more touch responsive (i.e. changes in picking dynamics have more impact on the texture/voicing if that makes sense).

Aside from being noticeably richer sounding harmonically and smoother overall the rest of what I tried to describe above is pretty subtle. Subtle or not the changes are all positive and collectively make for what I hear as a significant improvement for an already fantastic sounding amp!
 
Excellent! I ordered my Mark V head yesterday and it is supposed to arrive this Friday. I was looking into buying a preamp retube kit from dougstubes.com and a few of the preamp tubes he suggested were the tung sols! Did you replace all the stock mesa preamp tubes or just a few? and are your power tubes mesa? I also plan to buy some cheap fizzy lifters from ebay to see if they improve the death treble beam from standing right in front of the cab, worth a shot!
 
I replaced all of the stock preamp tubes with the Tung-Sol's. I still have the stock Mesa 6L6's in the amp and they sound fine to me. I may try a different quad when these need to be replaced but I'm in no rush. The amp sounds fantastic as is!

Congrats on the new MkV! Enjoy :)
 
Deaj, am I correct in remembering you are not a high gain player?

I am curious about how the new tubes effect the high gain modes...
 
I have an NOS Sylvania long plate 12ax7 in V1 and an NOS RCA 12at7 in V2, just dropped in a set of Mesa EL34s. The 12at7 was a nice improvement in channel 2, and the EL34s changed the whole character of the amp, even at low volume.
 
Hi,

I just did something similar with my 212 Roadster. I started getting a very noticeable level of tinny "bad" distortion (buzzing/hissing/out of phase stuff) on my overdriven channels. I replaced my STR440 6L6's and it helped, but didn't completely do the trick. So, I picked up a dozen 12AX7's to see what was what. Here's what I discovered:

V1:

A used RCA long black plate 1958-59 vintage in this position gave me some INCREDIBLE tones on the clean channels and something that was absolutely magic on channel 2, brit, with some pre-amp distortion dialed in. A truly Vintage sound. But...really crappy in channels 3 and 4, though. Just not up to the challenge of modern distortion, I guess.

A NOS late 1960's vintage RFT ECC83 in V1 was like very smooth dark chocolate. Deep, focused lows, smooth, fuzzy distortion on channels 3 and 4 -- really nice and I really like this tube. But the highs and mids were very, VERY weak. Just wouldn't do at all in V1 on a permanent basis.

So.....a new Tung Sol Reissue came next. This tube is strong across the range of tones, with tight lows, ringing mids, and sharp highs. The distortion from it has a slightly bitter edge compared to the RFT, but is quite nice.

V2: This is where the RFT now lives. Starting with the clarity and strength of the Tung Sol in V1, the RFT in V2 provides some of that smooth, strong low end distortion on top of the Tung-sol character without muting the mids and highs too much. A really nice compliment to the Tung Sol.

V3: I put a new Penta Labs select Shuguang here. It adds some 'fizz' to the distorted channels 3 and 4. Again, compliments the Tung-Sol and RFT nicely.

V4: Tung Sol Reissue.

V5: Penta labs select Shuguang

V6: Tung-Sol reissue with matched triodes for the phase inverter.

This combination, with the foundation of the whole deal provided by the Tung Sol re-issues, is superb. The neatest thing that I've found with the distorted channels (which is where I spend 90% of my playing time) are what I call little surprises. Like when you catch just that perfect bit of a pick harmonic, or a muted harmonic playing rhythm stuff, or find a bit of a cool in-phase low frequency feedback vibe with the compressor on and ya hold a note for just a bit longer than normal. The actual tone and character of these little embellishments is 100% different than what I used to get with the stock Mesas. The basic sounds are still where I remember them being on my Jackson (of course) but when the sound emerges from the amp, it makes you go "Whoa, :shock: WTF was THAT!" And then ya do it again and it's different, and way better. Very cool stuff!

+10 for the Tung-Sols!

(And I HIGHLY recommend Doug's Tubes. Doug is all about quality and customer satisfaction. As a first-time customer, I had a question about some of the tubes that I scored from him, so I called and left a message and he called me back personally within a half hour, after he was supposed to be closed for the day to help me out.)

Craig
 
Great Post!

I will pick up another tube or two and try you 2 & 3 position ideas. I plugged the Tung Sol reissues in all slots on my MKV and Single Rec. I noticed a bit more bite as well. I have also heard the 59 black plate is a great blues/Dire Straits tube. Will probably drop 50-60 to get one. Aside of rock and metal, I love some Straits and blues.
 
Hendog said:
Deaj, am I correct in remembering you are not a high gain player?

I am curious about how the new tubes effect the high gain modes...

To some degree this is correct. I don't use high gain for any music projects that I'm involved in and haven't since the mid 80's - I was playing metal in high school bands around that time. That said I do turn the gain way up now and then and play more aggressively, especially since the MkV arrived! I personally think that channel 3 sounds better with high gain settings now than with the stock tubes. The top end could get a bit buzzy with the stock tubes. I'm not hearing this since swapping the preamp tubes. Keep in mind though that my perception of the higher gain tones is less critical than for blues to classic rock type drive tones.
 
Ok So i just ordered the preamp tube "cocktail" from dougstubes.com tonight. It includes...

- V1 Tungsol 12AX7
- V2 High Gain JJECC83
- V3 Penta 12AX7
- V4 Penta 12AX7
- V5 Shuguang 12AX7 9th gen
- V6 Sovtek LP/LPS

and I also ordered a JAN Philips 5U4GB Rectifier tube.

I decided not to buy a 7th tube to complete the set, not really necessary for me. I do have a question though; how do rectifier changes affect the tone on clean tones (channel 1) and dirty tones (2 & 3)? Does it affect both tube and diode and triode with the swap? Just wonderin. Also, what does each preamp tube do to the amp, like how does V1 affect it compared to 2, 3, etc. Thanks guys!
 
Deaj said:
Signal clipping is definitely improved! !

This is the only phrase that bothers me ... does this apply to first channel (as in early breakup)?
As you know how much super clean headroom means to my playing.. would to lose that only to smooth out the other channels
 
lucidology said:
Deaj said:
Signal clipping is definitely improved! !

This is the only phrase that bothers me ... does this apply to first channel (as in early breakup)?
As you know how much super clean headroom means to my playing.. would to lose that only to smooth out the other channels

Actually I perceive no change in clean headroom. I was referring to the clipping characteristics only. In fact one might perceive a very slight increase in clean headroom as the transition from clean to signal clipping is now more subtle and smooth allowing for more variation at the verge of breakup. I'm finding that I can set the clean channel master a touch higher because of this as there is more subtle variation on the clean side of 'dirty' clean (if that makes any sense. Otherwise dead clean and loud is still at the same settings and still truly clean.
 
Hi,

just recieved the Tung-sol Reissue Set so im gona try to put them in.
Is it difficult to do it or what do i have to be aware of geting inside the amp?

thanks
 
borisson said:
Hi,

just recieved the Tung-sol Reissue Set so im gona try to put them in.
Is it difficult to do it or what do i have to be aware of geting inside the amp?

thanks

It's not really a difficult task. Remove and replace each tube one at a time and be sure to take note of the pin orientation as you remove them. Hold the replacement tube such that the pin orientation is the same as the one you removed. As you insert the new tube don't push upward to seat the tubes with too much force. If the pins are seated correctly the tube should move up towards the socket and seat all of the pins without much effort. You may have to move and/or turn the tube a little bit while the pins are in very light contact with the recessed socket until you feel the pins sort-of drop into place in the socket.

Note that there are tabs on the tube shields that correspond to notches on the edge of the hole that holds the shield in place around each tube. If I remember correctly the notches are oriented front to back for all of the preamp tubes. You rotate the shield until the tabs meet the notches and the shield will feel loose when you get it there. Pull down lightly to remove the shield exposing the tube. When replacing the shields be sure the center of the spring centers on the point at the end of the tube, then with the tabs lined up with the notches gently push the shield up so that the rubber O-ring around the base compresses slightly around the edge of the chassis hole. Turn the tube shield a quarter turn or more so that the tabs are no longer lined up with the notches and the shield should be firmly reseated.
 
Deaj said:
borisson said:
Hi,

just recieved the Tung-sol Reissue Set so im gona try to put them in.
Is it difficult to do it or what do i have to be aware of geting inside the amp?

thanks

It's not really a difficult task. Remove and replace each tube one at a time and be sure to take note of the pin orientation as you remove them. Hold the replacement tube such that the pin orientation is the same as the one you removed. As you insert the new tube don't push upward to seat the tubes with too much force. If the pins are seated correctly the tube should move up towards the socket and seat all of the pins without much effort. You may have to move and/or turn the tube a little bit while the pins are in very light contact with the recessed socket until you feel the pins sort-of drop into place in the socket.

Note that there are tabs on the tube shields that correspond to notches on the edge of the hole that holds the shield in place around each tube. If I remember correctly the notches are oriented front to back for all of the preamp tubes. You rotate the shield until the tabs meet the notches and the shield will feel loose when you get it there. Pull down lightly to remove the shield exposing the tube. When replacing the shields be sure the center of the spring centers on the point at the end of the tube, then with the tabs lined up with the notches gently push the shield up so that the rubber O-ring around the base compresses slightly around the edge of the chassis hole. Turn the tube shield a quarter turn or more so that the tabs are no longer lined up with the notches and the shield should be firmly reseated.
Excellent advice!!!!!!! one more thing..... any time you replace tubes work each tube in and out the socket a few times ( by doing this you'll create a good contact)

good luck :wink:
 
OK, lots to respond to!

YES! That's exactly the deal with the '59 RCA tone. GREAT Dire Straits/ blues/ Robin Trower stuff on the clean channels! Dude, if you want one, let me know and I'll sell ya one of my used ones (NOT NOS or in collector's condition, but they test pretty strong and work without any issues that I can hear) for less than 50-60. I really don't want to get into that on the forum here, but I picked up a set of 4 for a great price, and I really don't need them all, so I'll be happy to share the joy! (And no, I don't have enough to give up more than ONE, and I'm not in the business of sellin tubes! lol)

Doug's Tubes Cocktail -- The RFT ECC83 that I used in V2 is a NOS (almost-equivalent) to a JJ ECC83. So a JJ ECC83 in V2 is a great choice. Note that a Penta 12AX7 is THE SAME as a Shuguang 12AX7, except that Penta Labs screens them and selects the best of the ones that they receive. I personally don't care too much for the tone of the Chinese tubes, so I try to limit them to the cathode follower positions (based upon rumours that other tubes in those positions cause trouble in the Roadster and Road King pre-amps). This may not be an issue in the Mark V, which is a different pre-amp design. I also elected not to use the Sovtek for my phase inverter based upon less than stellar reviews of that tube.

Clean tones should not be affected quite as much as distorted ones. From my limited experience so far, the richness of cleans is changed just a little from tube to tube, and in some potentially significant ways depending on your tastes, but most of them provide pretty standard performance when not overdriven. I suspect (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong) that the clean channel tones are based more on the amp circuitry than the tubes. Ya really need to do some experimenting and see what your ears and spirit think. BUT each tube seems to provide a really different response when they start to distort. Changing the 12AX7s should not really impact the way that the rectifier (diode and various levels of tube rectification) responds. The general tone changes when switching among the rectifier choices seem similar with new preamp tubes. I doubt that you'll get any bad surprises in that aspect. So, you'll need to study the Mark V tube layout that's in the Mesa manual. Each tube has a different function in the various pre-amp channels and sub-channels. Each 12AX7 tube actually has two separate sides, so will have two distinct roles in the scheme of things. The most important tube is the first gain stage -- this is usually position V1, which sets the overall tone of the amp. The next most important tube when it comes to tone is probably the phase inverter/ driver (usually the last one in the cascade --- V7 I think for the Mark V). This one sends a balanced final signal to the power amp, and drives the 6l6's or EL34's. This one should be selected to have matched triodes for optimum performance. (Note that in the Doug's Tube Cocktail, the Sovtek was specifically selected for this function!) The second and third gain stages are also important -- they add color to the tone on top of the first stage. The least important (until they start to go bad, of course) are the reverb sender and receiver, and the effects loop sender and receiver. (Did I get all this right , guys?) (lol) This is the way that I understand things, at least, but I'm always learning more! (Just be gentle but firm when pulling them and pluggin them back in, make sure that the pins a properly aligned, and you should be just fine. Also be careful with the tube tips when you put the spring-loaded caps back on so that you don't accidentally break one off. But do make sure to turn the amp off, let it coll off a little, and unplug it!) The advice that others have posted is right on the money!

Later!

Craig
 
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