gbsmusic
Well-known member
I'm just looking for a good tube that has great gain but yet has the nice clean sound if there is such a combo? I play metal but I do like a crystal clean sound. Any advice? Thank you!
Looking for the best overall tube?
- Thread starter gbsmusic
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Timbre Wolf
Well-known member
What kind of tube are you talking about? Preamp (such as 12AX7)? Power (such as 6L6GC?)
I've had lots of experience with lots of tubes, and I've also got to break the news to you that there are no "best" tubes. There may be a best tube for your taste, in a particular position, in a particular amp. And then there are all the other tubes, which are simply options for a different taste.
I could list at least 30 different "best" tubes, in my opinion, in my amps.
- Thom
I've had lots of experience with lots of tubes, and I've also got to break the news to you that there are no "best" tubes. There may be a best tube for your taste, in a particular position, in a particular amp. And then there are all the other tubes, which are simply options for a different taste.
I could list at least 30 different "best" tubes, in my opinion, in my amps.
- Thom
gbsmusic
Well-known member
I was talking preamp and I thought that was the answer I would get, I was hoping for a couple ideas I dont know much about the types of tubes. I figured it was at least a shot. Thanks.
Timbre Wolf
Well-known member
Well, you're probably asking about a 12AX7 type. I'll just throw this out, based on intuition: consider the NOS Tesla E83CC (not JJ, but the predecessor to JJ). They are a favorite of Tubefreak, whose style and tastes may be akin to yours.
- T
- T
HalfDeaf
Well-known member
If money is not an issue, go with NOS like the previous poster said.
But if you're considering new production tubes, I've tried the new production Tung-Sols, "Groove tubes", Sovteks, Svetlanas, Mullards, Chinese 9th gens, and JJs and can give you my opinions.
Out of those, I actually prefer the Chinese 9th gens for V1 (primary input stage - most important for overall tone) because they have great gain characteristics while still providing a warm and full clean tone. The new production Mullards have an even better clean, but much worse high gain, so I use one in V2 (which is a pre- and post-eq control on a mkivA). For heavy high gain, I prefer TungSols in V3 (which is the lead gain circuit in a mkivA), but these can get a little "ice-pick"-ish if used clean.
One note - these new production "Mullards", "TungSols", etc, should not really be referred to by those names. They are all just purchased brand names now, representing different designs coming out of the New Sensor plant in Russia.
But if you're considering new production tubes, I've tried the new production Tung-Sols, "Groove tubes", Sovteks, Svetlanas, Mullards, Chinese 9th gens, and JJs and can give you my opinions.
Out of those, I actually prefer the Chinese 9th gens for V1 (primary input stage - most important for overall tone) because they have great gain characteristics while still providing a warm and full clean tone. The new production Mullards have an even better clean, but much worse high gain, so I use one in V2 (which is a pre- and post-eq control on a mkivA). For heavy high gain, I prefer TungSols in V3 (which is the lead gain circuit in a mkivA), but these can get a little "ice-pick"-ish if used clean.
One note - these new production "Mullards", "TungSols", etc, should not really be referred to by those names. They are all just purchased brand names now, representing different designs coming out of the New Sensor plant in Russia.
joey_truelove
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The best pre-amp valve is a cryo-treated valve. Of the pre-amp ones I've tried (current production) I would say the following:
The best brand for any position I would say is Electro-Harmonix
The best brand for any brand and type of amp, it's the JJ
The Tung-Sol gold pin is really a great valve for fat tones.
Output valves is another story as that has more to do with style and sound in a different way. Tung-Sol again have a wide selection of offerings that has turned out really well. More recently the 6L6G and EL34.
JJ Electronic are rather on a path of exploration and re-invention, for instance having picked up the KT77
The most scrutinising screening would be Groove Tubes.
The best brand for any position I would say is Electro-Harmonix
The best brand for any brand and type of amp, it's the JJ
The Tung-Sol gold pin is really a great valve for fat tones.
Output valves is another story as that has more to do with style and sound in a different way. Tung-Sol again have a wide selection of offerings that has turned out really well. More recently the 6L6G and EL34.
JJ Electronic are rather on a path of exploration and re-invention, for instance having picked up the KT77
The most scrutinising screening would be Groove Tubes.
Timbre Wolf
Well-known member
joey_truelove said:
Well then... ahem :roll:
There you go!!
212Mavguy
Well-known member
Gotta back up the Wolf on this one. The tube is only a part of the tone chain that goes from the fingers to the listener's ears. Different tubes do sound different in various amps, and having owned both JJ and pre-JJ Tesla e83cc/ecc803s to my ears it's not even close, much in favor of the vintage e83cc/ecc803s. One of my amps has a bias knob for the first preamp tube, so I can make any 12__7type tube sound quite different depending on where that knob is!
Timbre Wolf and I have exchanged a few collaborative personal messages, we have exchanged tubes through the mail that we like for their sonics that each of us have not heard, and we both came out for the better for doing it, a bit of cooperative learning is a great thing. Between the two of us we have literally hundreds of vintage tubes, power, preamp, and recitfier types. He has also made his sonic observations for various preamp tube types available to all here as a link more than once for no charge. Another tube man often posting here patiently and helpfully with tons of experience is Stokes.
This topic can easily become a flame war in the style of the posts in the guitar section on the topic of how much does the type of wood(s) used in an electric guitar affect tone... :wink: And yes, there are at least 30 best tubes out there, depends on they tones one wants and what amp/speakers one has. Peace to all that post here.
Timbre Wolf and I have exchanged a few collaborative personal messages, we have exchanged tubes through the mail that we like for their sonics that each of us have not heard, and we both came out for the better for doing it, a bit of cooperative learning is a great thing. Between the two of us we have literally hundreds of vintage tubes, power, preamp, and recitfier types. He has also made his sonic observations for various preamp tube types available to all here as a link more than once for no charge. Another tube man often posting here patiently and helpfully with tons of experience is Stokes.
This topic can easily become a flame war in the style of the posts in the guitar section on the topic of how much does the type of wood(s) used in an electric guitar affect tone... :wink: And yes, there are at least 30 best tubes out there, depends on they tones one wants and what amp/speakers one has. Peace to all that post here.
Timbre Wolf
Well-known member
Don't get me started, now. Hey - we should also talk about plectrum material and thickness as a bold influence on tone. Seriously! No, really - seriously!!212Mavguy said:
By the way, thanks for the kind words, 212! Any kinder, and they'll think we've eloped :wink: I'll have to check back in with you soon.
Back to the topic at hand - it really is necessary to begin somewhere. Take a risk with a certain type of tube, compare it to another, then go from there. There is no substitute for first-hand experience. That said, I do grant that someone could consider EH tubes as their personal favorite.
- Thom
dennq45
Well-known member
I like to experement. I picked one of each...
Tung-Sol 12AX7 Very smooth tube.
Chinese 12AX7 Bright tube.
Electro-Harmonics 12AX7 Very quiet tube
JJ 12AX7 overdrives the amp like no tomorrow
5751 GE Jan-Philips Very nice in V1 tames the amp a little my favorite
Pick up a few. You can always use a few spares.
Tung-Sol 12AX7 Very smooth tube.
Chinese 12AX7 Bright tube.
Electro-Harmonics 12AX7 Very quiet tube
JJ 12AX7 overdrives the amp like no tomorrow
5751 GE Jan-Philips Very nice in V1 tames the amp a little my favorite
Pick up a few. You can always use a few spares.
"Back to the topic at hand - it really is necessary to begin somewhere. Take a risk with a certain type of tube, compare it to another, then go from there. There is no substitute for first-hand experience. That said, I do grant that someone could consider EH tubes as their personal favorite."
That quote pretty much sums it up,it all comes down to personal taste.Thanks,Mavguy,for the tip of the hat,and I tip mine right back at ya.And I think we both agree,if you want to know about NOS tubes,the Wolf is the man.
That quote pretty much sums it up,it all comes down to personal taste.Thanks,Mavguy,for the tip of the hat,and I tip mine right back at ya.And I think we both agree,if you want to know about NOS tubes,the Wolf is the man.
Timbre Wolf
Well-known member
Thanks for the kudos, Stokes. I've got to say that Mavguy has vast and impressive knowledge about NOS tubes as well. The topic is too huge for one person to tackle - it really takes a community, and I'm grateful for these discussions.
Cheers all!
- Thom
Cheers all!
- Thom
I've known Mavguy since what....2nd or 3rd grade? Seriously, he lived down the street when we where kids. His first tube rolling session was at my Dad's shop about 4 years ago or so, we flipped a nice stash of 12ax7 type preamp tubes through a MusicMan amp and judged them.
I was lucky to have kept a lot of the tubes I had in amps from when I was a kid. My Dad was just a packrat, gleaning his considerable stash of TV tubes turned up some sweet stuff too. I have done a bit of buying on ebay, 5751s used to be pretty cheap. Salvaged out a thrift store organ or two in my day also, got some great tubes that way. As it sits I have more preamp tubes than I will ever be able to use but I figure I will keep them for a while yet.
While I am a player and like to put a great sounding tube in my amp, Mavguy has become completely obsessed with vacuum tubes. Stokes and Timber Wolf, you dudes rock for the help you give on this board. All you tube newbies, just pick up a few things and try swapping V1, your first preamp tube. Finding a balanced PI (phase inverter) can really improve tone as well. You can also fine tune the sound of your reverb with proper tubage.
Just don't drive yourself nuts splitting hairs like the above-mentioned crazy dudes! At some point you gotta get out there and tear it up a bit!
Here are some suggestions for vintage tubes to try in V1. By the way, don't be afraid of used tubes, some of them have had an easy life and will deliver the goods for some time to come.
RCA 7025 - Classic all around tube
Sylvania 7025/ecc83/12ax7a - all three designations on one tube, Sylvania in yellow. Can be a very high gain tube, scary almost.
GE short gray plate - Under rated so you can still afford them.
Tesla ECC803s or E83CC - the one with the A frame getter. Very quiet, very full flat frequency response. Some may find it boring it's so perfect.
Any Telefunken (look for the diamond between the pins), Mullard or Amperex is worth trying. I have 5 near NOS Amperex Bugle Boys that I pulled out of a Norelco stereo tape recorder I found at Salvation Army. Pretty near religion to play those!
That oughta keep you young whipper-snappers busy.
I was lucky to have kept a lot of the tubes I had in amps from when I was a kid. My Dad was just a packrat, gleaning his considerable stash of TV tubes turned up some sweet stuff too. I have done a bit of buying on ebay, 5751s used to be pretty cheap. Salvaged out a thrift store organ or two in my day also, got some great tubes that way. As it sits I have more preamp tubes than I will ever be able to use but I figure I will keep them for a while yet.
While I am a player and like to put a great sounding tube in my amp, Mavguy has become completely obsessed with vacuum tubes. Stokes and Timber Wolf, you dudes rock for the help you give on this board. All you tube newbies, just pick up a few things and try swapping V1, your first preamp tube. Finding a balanced PI (phase inverter) can really improve tone as well. You can also fine tune the sound of your reverb with proper tubage.
Just don't drive yourself nuts splitting hairs like the above-mentioned crazy dudes! At some point you gotta get out there and tear it up a bit!
Here are some suggestions for vintage tubes to try in V1. By the way, don't be afraid of used tubes, some of them have had an easy life and will deliver the goods for some time to come.
RCA 7025 - Classic all around tube
Sylvania 7025/ecc83/12ax7a - all three designations on one tube, Sylvania in yellow. Can be a very high gain tube, scary almost.
GE short gray plate - Under rated so you can still afford them.
Tesla ECC803s or E83CC - the one with the A frame getter. Very quiet, very full flat frequency response. Some may find it boring it's so perfect.
Any Telefunken (look for the diamond between the pins), Mullard or Amperex is worth trying. I have 5 near NOS Amperex Bugle Boys that I pulled out of a Norelco stereo tape recorder I found at Salvation Army. Pretty near religion to play those!
That oughta keep you young whipper-snappers busy.
Keep in mind that the same preamp tube can work differently (tone-wise) if used in different amps. I've heard of many who are happy with a Tung Sol 12AX7 in V1 of their Recto but not that happy with the same valve in a Mark series amp.
gbsmusic
Well-known member
I just got back in town and read all the feedback. Thank you my head is spinning! This more than gives me a great place to start, all this stuff is so far over my head, this board is so helpful though, it good to hear your opinions rather than talk to a salesman about things like this, they are looking for that $ in the redgister. Tone matters to me so much now unlike 25 years ago when I was happy to get a little distortion out of my Peavey Decade 10watt amp and my Arbor guitar! Thanks guys!!!!
Timbre Wolf
Well-known member
Doug Preston, of Doug's Tubes, is a very knowledgeable and trustworthy tube seller. I have no reservation whatsoever in recommending you give him a call to discuss your needs. He won't steer you wrong.gbsmusic said:
- Thom
212Mavguy
Well-known member
Rooooooooooolllllll another one,
just like the other one,
you been hangin' on to it,
and I sure would like to have a hit,
Don't bogart dat tube my friend, pass it over to me.... :wink:
Hey sixvee,
since second grade at Wolters Elementary School...on the playground...doing the Jungle Gym
Pretty much sums it up to not take what any one person says as gospel, but the common ideas expressed that work for each individual are:
To be individual and experiment, experiment, experiment!
What sounds a certain way in one amp might not sound the same in another,
Vintage and new old stock tubes are worth having and most if not all who truly delve into them tend to but NOT ALWAYS prefer their sonics over new production in most cases and uses,
Different makes of tube and tube types definitely have their signature tones
What works for one set of ears may but not always work for another
You have to start from somewhere, so get going!!
just like the other one,
you been hangin' on to it,
and I sure would like to have a hit,
Don't bogart dat tube my friend, pass it over to me.... :wink:
Hey sixvee,
since second grade at Wolters Elementary School...on the playground...doing the Jungle Gym
Pretty much sums it up to not take what any one person says as gospel, but the common ideas expressed that work for each individual are:
To be individual and experiment, experiment, experiment!
What sounds a certain way in one amp might not sound the same in another,
Vintage and new old stock tubes are worth having and most if not all who truly delve into them tend to but NOT ALWAYS prefer their sonics over new production in most cases and uses,
Different makes of tube and tube types definitely have their signature tones
What works for one set of ears may but not always work for another
You have to start from somewhere, so get going!!
joey_truelove
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May I ask where the problem lies?Timbre Wolf said:
Timbre Wolf
Well-known member
This is simply a difference of opinion. But there are a few reasons I felt compelled to voice another point of view...joey_truelove said:
Philisophically: there is no best, ever. There are subjective preferences, that we can express as opinions.
Logically: you've listed two "best" tubes. This is not logically possible. However, I could probably agree with with this kind of logic if you had listed about thirty best 12AX7.
Experientially: I have my preferred brands, and wouldn't mind a world that only had one 12AX7 choice (as long as that one was Mullard's long-plate 12AX7, and there was an endless supply of them). But when I outfit a new amp, for my taste, using my ears, I end up with an unpredictable collection of several different brands of 12AX7. Each of the amp's 12AX7 positions has different functions, and I therefore select a tube for that unique function. Even if I liked the biting highs, nasal mids, and mushy lows of the EH 12AX7, and could tolerate its relative lack of clarity, I certainly wouldn't want it put in every position that called for a 12AX7 (in every amp, nonetheless).
That's all.
joey_truelove
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Mr Wolf, I'm not sure you noticed I actually agreed with your first reply on this thread: There is no one 'best' valve/ tube. Even so I mentioned the word Best three times. I'm sure most people would agree on the first one. There will always be 'best string' or 'best valve' threads
That's why different valves can, in my oppinion (which I pointed out) be 'best' (in matter of speaking) for different things. People won't stop using the word 'best', meaning the preferential 'best', simply because they don't realise the full meaning of the word. Btw who invented the word in the first place? Same word in other Germanic languages.
You speak of the EH in it's off-the-shelf condition now, don't you? Noteworthy is I don't find the EH I use being so mushy and lacking clarity, and that's why I find the cryo effect more noticable with this brand than many others. I stand by my oppinion this fellow is perhaps the most alround valve out there in current production. I also have stated previously that this fellow is unsuitable for gain and toneshaping positions. This, as pointed out, is in singular form.
That is why the JJ would probably end up in most amps of any design and was I to go with only one make and model, which I don't, this would be it. This is in plural form, obviously. Yes, in this meaning of the word 'best' there can be several 'bests' depending on how you mean it.
I don't believe I mentioned I actually have more Tung-Sols than EHs or JJs in my pre-amp, counting 12AX7s/ ECC83s. There's by all means an EH AT7 in pair with the JJ (the only JJ in my entire pre-amp) in my Twin module. That would make them equal pegging with the TSs. Now how does that compute?
Have yet to try the China made TAD 12AX7
That's why different valves can, in my oppinion (which I pointed out) be 'best' (in matter of speaking) for different things. People won't stop using the word 'best', meaning the preferential 'best', simply because they don't realise the full meaning of the word. Btw who invented the word in the first place? Same word in other Germanic languages.
You speak of the EH in it's off-the-shelf condition now, don't you? Noteworthy is I don't find the EH I use being so mushy and lacking clarity, and that's why I find the cryo effect more noticable with this brand than many others. I stand by my oppinion this fellow is perhaps the most alround valve out there in current production. I also have stated previously that this fellow is unsuitable for gain and toneshaping positions. This, as pointed out, is in singular form.
That is why the JJ would probably end up in most amps of any design and was I to go with only one make and model, which I don't, this would be it. This is in plural form, obviously. Yes, in this meaning of the word 'best' there can be several 'bests' depending on how you mean it.
I don't believe I mentioned I actually have more Tung-Sols than EHs or JJs in my pre-amp, counting 12AX7s/ ECC83s. There's by all means an EH AT7 in pair with the JJ (the only JJ in my entire pre-amp) in my Twin module. That would make them equal pegging with the TSs. Now how does that compute?
Have yet to try the China made TAD 12AX7
