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Myself, I much prefer the NOS for clean tones except when an enormous amount of sparkle is needed. But my tastes were developed by listening to exceptional players from the 70's, basically before metal developed as a genre and mindset. We could well be talking about the music originating from different planets...

And I agree that by no means all NOS are alike. But they do have a general characteristic that is clearly identifiable based on what I've heard, at least the very popular models.
 
123thefirst said:
And I agree that by no means all NOS are alike. But they do have a general characteristic that is clearly identifiable based on what I've heard, at least the very popular models.
You want NOS sparkle? Try Raytheon's black-plate 12AX7A. Or Tesla E83CC. Or Sylvania black-plate 12AX7 (either short or long plate). Or Mullard long-plate 12AX7 (f91 or f92 version). Or... I could go on.

Compare those to something like RFT ECC83 or GE long gray-plate 12AX7, and you couldn't help but notice the range of NOS tube sonic possibilities. There is nothing in current production, in my opinion, that a judiciously chosen NOS tube couldn't do more elegantly.

I'm curious what the general characteristic of a NOS tube is, 123thefirst, in your opinion?

- Thom
 
"Raytheon's black-plate 12AX7A"

is the long plate? would it be more sparkly than an Amperex Bugle boy in V1 or 2?
 
jrkooshman said:
"Raytheon's black-plate 12AX7A"

is the long plate? would it be more sparkly than an Amperex Bugle boy in V1 or 2?
Raytheon only made their black-plate 12AX7A in a long-plate style, so, yes - long-plate.

I will assume that the "Amperex Bugle Boy" you are referring to is a Heerlen, Holland-made short-plate, with "I65" etched on it (delta etch for Heerlen). Amperex branded tubes from many manufacturers, and the Bugle Boy logo was likewise not an indication of origin. There were variations on the "I65" type 12AX7, too, over time.

That said, the Raytheon I'm referring to is more sparkly, in my experience. The Raytheon breaks up earlier, but until it reaches the breakup point, it has superior clarity as a clean tube. I love the way it transitions from clean to breakup, given playing dynamics.

- Thom
 
Timbre Wolf said:
There is nothing in current production, in my opinion, that a judiciously chosen NOS tube couldn't do more elegantly.

I'm curious what the general characteristic of a NOS tube is, 123thefirst, in your opinion?

That's no doubt true about a judiciously chosen tube, but the rest of us mortals of limited means don't have access to those kinds of resources. It doesn't make sense to me, ethically or economically to kill the fondest hopes of the rest of us for tonal perfection on the basis of the privileged status of those of you with those resources. My point is that expense (both in time and currency) for the final 5% improvement you get with the perfect NOS tube in the exact environment is probably better spent elsewhere for us commoners. If you spend the same amount of money on cables, for instance, you might get an 300% improvement in tone in 100% of all situations and you won't be contributing to the deterioration of NOS inventory (which is effectively null anyway).

As to the general characteristics of a NOS pre amp tube, to me it's both the attack/release time response curve of the initial pick attack and the attack/release volume response for certain frequencies that is most apparent. I don't quite have the time to pull out an oscilloscope to verify what my ears tell me is happening. But the NOS tubes seem to give you a thinner, prettier sounding dispersion of harmonics as time progresses resulting a rounder, fuller sort of sound. It's hard to describe actually.
 
212Mavguy said:
A balanced phase inverter tube in a balanced circuit driving a balanced set of power tubes is the real recipe for clean tone sustain in a push pull power section amp...

can you tell me more about that ? can you explain ? i'm very interesting...

the V5 in a caliber 50+ is the phase inverter i think ?
 
123thefirst said:
the rest of us mortals of limited means don't have access to those kinds of resources. It doesn't make sense to me, ethically or economically to kill the fondest hopes of the rest of us for tonal perfection on the basis of the privileged status of those of you with those resources.
:(

Please don't give me the power to kill your hopes.



I would hope that, by posting my genuine impressions of various NOS tube choices, I'd be helping others save money by having some means by which to decide where to spend limited resources. With real knowledge, one can decide to not pursue a tube one wouldn't be satisfied with. I'll re-iterate something that I've written many times: save money by buying used versions of tubes cheaply on eBay, try them for yourselves, then, if you wish, buy them NOS from a dealer - this lets you experiment for less cash spent.

Just to put things in perspective, I've bought dozens of Raytheon black-plate 12AX7A that are used, but test as strong as new, and have never paid more than $12 each for them. The bargains are still there, if you have knowledge and patience.

Don't give up!

- T
 
That said, the Raytheon I'm referring to is more sparkly, in my experience. The Raytheon breaks up earlier, but until it reaches the breakup point, it has superior clarity as a clean tube. I love the way it transitions from clean to breakup, given playing dynamics.

- Thom

yikes! These things are hard to find and I want to try them now! I did find some organ tubes made by Raytheon, I guess I will try them out. TW- what style of music do you play?
 
jrkooshman said:
yikes! These things are hard to find and I want to try them now! I did find some organ tubes made by Raytheon, I guess I will try them out. TW- what style of music do you play?
Here's a little i.d. guide for eBayers looking for Raytheon long black-plate 12AX7A...

It is easy to identify the Raytheon long black-plate 12AX7A, once you know which details to look for. First, note that the long plates (17mm, as opposed to short plates that are 14mm) are shiny-black. Sylvania is the only other manufacturer that made a 12AX7 with similarly shiny-black plates, in their early-'50s square-getter wire 12AX7. Raytheon also made a square-getter wire 12AX7 in the '50s, but it is much more expensive - I'm referring to the halo-getter wire version here.

Notice how the black plate tabs that protrude through the mica disks terminate in a square/right-angle cut:
RaytheonBP12AX7A-3.jpg


Another clue, in this next photo, how the EIA code for Raytheon, "280", is printed on the tube (EIA codes help i.d. tubes: 274 for RCA, 188 for GE, etc.). Notice the more durable printed "A" near the top of the glass - this kind of lettering is also typical:
RaytheonBP12AX7A-2.jpg


And finally, there is a distinctive partial third mica structure between the top mica disk and the getter wire. A few other tube manufacturers had this kind of structure (such as GE, with their long gray-plate 12AX7), but this is another feature that every Raytheon 12AX7A has. To me, its shape is vaguely reminiscent of a paper clip.

Also note the printed “Baldwin” label, in yellow paint, on this photo.
Raytheon12AX7Abaldwin1.jpg



Oh yeah – my music style is somewhat shoe-gazey, like a cross between Pink Floyd and the Butthole Surfers, with liberal splashes of clean surfy, rockabilly/psychobilly, and jump blues, all done up in a somewhat pop format. There used to be an expression: put that in your pipe and smoke it!

Cheers!

- Thom
 
Hello 123 the First, and Meursault,

For 123: I am of very limited means, but I shop carefully on ebay, and nearly all the 12__7 type tubes I get there are less cost to me before shipping than what I call "par" price, the price for a new production tube in a guitar store, that arbitrary par price is 20 bucks plus tax and the cost of driving my car to and from the store. My secret? knowing the shape and color of plates, the way that the mica spacers are cut, the getter style and how that getter is attached, the production codes silkscreened or acid etched on the bottle, bottle shape, so I know a chinese tube when I see one, an RFT in an amperex labeled bottle, an Amperex or Philips labeled 12ax7 that was made in the Mullard Blackburn factory, and stuff like that. It is not necessary to do business with specialty tube dealers to get great bargains, and FWIW not all of my transactions on ebay have been wonderful. I pays my money and rolls de dice. Nine times out of ten I win.

I learned the 12ax7 basics from an article in a Vacuum Tube Valley magazine that sixveesix shared with me a few years ago, as well as my purchases on eBay. Think the article was called 12ax7 shootout. Pics and tone comparisons of most NOS 12ax7's there as well as some early new production types. That is the most serious tubeweenie magazine I have ever read, the magazine copies are spendy, and I think that they can still be obtained at Antique Electronic Supply (www.tubesandmore.com)

For Meursault: Regarding balanced phase inverter tube in balanced circuit driving balanced power tubes for more sustain in clean tone, I am priveleged to own an amp designed and built by Chris Siegmund. Got it on eBay for a rather amazing price because his stuff was not well known when I got it. I learned from Chris in many emails and also from operating the amp itself. (www.siegmundguitars.com)

My Siegmund amp is a Midnight Blues Breaker Head. It is a limited production design based on the earliest Marshall JTM 45 with better parts and a few new features to help the user to carefully craft old school Marshall or personal signature tones. It is an amazing stage and recording amp when using appropriate speakers. Chris is one of those special standalone builders who leaves nothing to chance, and every single part he puts in every amp he solely produces is carefully inspected and when called for, tested for meeting specs.

The phase splitter tube and circuit take the preamp signal and split it into two separate signals and sends the signal sides to the paired power tubes in what is called a push pull power section, if the resistors and wiring in each side of that circuit are of different values/measurements then the circuit is not balanced, resistors need to be tested before installation to make sure they are of equal values in that part of the amp. 12__7 type tubes are known as twin triodes. If the phase splitter tube is not of relatively equal output for each triode, the signal is not balanced. If the circuit and phase splitter tube are well balanced within tight tolerances, then the relatively equal signal sides go to the power tubes.

I know that my Mullard 12at7 military PI tube is fairly well balanced and when I sent in my secondhand purchased amp to Chris for the free circuit upgrade he offers to his amp owners of earlier production Midnight Blues amps after gladly purchasing my secondhand owner's warranty, :D (let's see Mesa do THAT!) :wink: he carefully balanced the phase inverter circuit at that time.

In that amp, I manually set the bias and bias balance between the power tubes using a multimeter and probes into special jacks in the back of the chassis. While playing the amp, I set the bias first, then balance, then repeat each, when I get the power tubes within about 1 milliamp of each other for current draw, I noticed longer sustain for a given note near the limit of clean headroom for the preamp gain and master volume knob settings...

Ed Smith from Toad Suck Tones amps, another world class relatively unknown amp builder confirmed my observations in his emails too. I have one of his one of a kind customs from another lucky eBay purchase. It's an 18 watt marshall type killer, (no trem channel, though,) uses a pair of Bendix Red Bank output tubes that are sort of like an el84 on growth hormone and steriods originally designed to be used in a nuclear ICBM from the cold war. Talk about turning swords into plowshares...(www.toadsucktones.com) It has both bias and bias balance adjustments too. He builds amazing amps too.

Hope this helps each of you, and others as well. Peace.
 
To Meursault again:

please forgive me for not knowing function of v5 in 50 caliber+, (usually the last preamp tube is the phase inverter), but I am sure that the manual for that amp is available on the Mesa website for download, as well as some really cool articles by Randall Smith, he explains stuff MUCH better than I can. I love the one about the Irishmen in the bar regarding power tubes, (within F30 manual I think) it is inspired writing and inspiring as well to read!
 
hey dudes... i think we should make a sticky in this topic with picture and tips to recognize the different NOS tubes with an average price...

don't you think ? it could be awesome...
 
meursault said:
hey dudes... i think we should make a sticky in this topic with picture and tips to recognize the different NOS tubes with an average price...

don't you think ? it could be awesome...
Well, it'd be a bit of a project, but we could begin with a few prominent 12AX7 types. What would you like to know about next?

The price may be a problem, unless we could incorporate an algorithm that doubles the number every few months :wink:

- Thom
 
i know nothing... so...

for example NOS tubes got limit, especially the power tubes... for example what kind of NOS power tubes can substitute the modern 6L6GC ? i already ask this but nobody give a clear answer... anyway...

no the point is when you guys got time or when you simply want it only present one or two tubes with pics, specs, etc... just like you just did for the raytheon...

just an idea...
 
meursault said:
what kind of NOS power tubes can substitute the modern 6L6GC ?
6L6GC is the end of a developmental line that includes earlier, lower-voltage/wattage spec. types such as 5881, 5932, 6L6GB, 6L6GA, and 6L6G. You can use a 6L6GC in amps designed to run the other tube types (such as '50s tweed Fenders), but you cannot run the older tube types in an amp designed for 6L6GC - they'll redplate and fail.


- T
 
i heard that most of NOS 6L6GC got a lower plate voltage average...

i think the plate voltage needed by my cal50+ is 500 volt... the only one i found is the GE at 500 volt... most of NOS got 450 maxi...

the other question is price... does it really worth it ? common' ! did you see the price for an RCA blackplate ? this is insane ! for a tube with a short life like this ! a few months !!! i'm ok to put expensive tubes in the preamp... but in the power section !! :?
 
meursault said:
i heard that most of NOS 6L6GC got a lower plate voltage average...
Not a problem at all - NOS 6L6GC can take whatever new-production 6L6GC can.

meursault said:
the other question is price... does it really worth it ?
In my opinion, at today's prices, it is not worth it. I don't earn enough money to spend on matched NOS RCA black-plate pairs. I'm of the opinion that, unless you can face the price without batting an eye, it is more wise to stick with current-production. Other NOS 6L6GC are likewise incredibly expensive.

SED 6L6GC are generally well regarded, for new-production.

- T
 
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