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We all have our opinions, and they are as correct as we are true to ourselves. I do suggest that, if you're interested in exploring tube tone/character, you get a variety of used old ('50s and '60s; "used" valves cost significantly less) versions that still test new, and formulate your own opinions, based upon broader experience. Pay for the NOS when you find your favorites.

What excites me most about these discussions is not what tubes are favored so much as the detailed reasons why. For instance, if you strongly favor cryo-treated EH, it helps, immensely, to hear what exact unique qualities they possess, and how do they differ from non-cryo versions of the same valve.

- T

We're all in it together
- Harry Tuttle
 
Worse than heroin.I got enough tubes to keep me and my 2 sons supplied for life,and maybe their kids as well.And I'm talking about a dozen or so amps,and I just keep buying more whenever I see them.And I really do need them all,no really!
 
stokes said:
I got enough tubes to keep me and my 2 sons supplied for life,and maybe their kids as well.
Glad to hear of someone else thinking about future generations. I'm making many gear decisions, these days, based on whether a piece can be an heirloom or not. My two girls are not yet old enough (one is 5-1/2 yrs and one is 15 mo.) to appreciate any musical gear, but they will be someday.

- Thom
 
that kind of discussion is weird...

as you said, the tone depend on everything between the strings and the ears... so finally any experience is usefull if you say what kind of guitar (and pick-ups), amp and/or cab/speaker you're actually using...

after that there's taste... boomy for someone good fat bass for someone else...

objectively what can be said 'bout tubes ?
 
meursault said:
objectively what can be said 'bout tubes ?
Nothing!

All of my postings about tubes are based on my subjective impressions. There is no objectivity, at all. However, in discussing my impressions, I've more often found agreement (from experienced players) than not.

meursault said:
tone depend on everything between the strings and the ears
I'll always maintain that the ultimate impetus towards "tone" is the mind. No matter what guitar/amp/speakers/tubes/room/etc. I'm given, I will be driven to create the sounds I hold within my mind, and I will play differently than another guitarist using the same setup. Some say tone is in the fingers - I say tone is in the mind.

- T
 
Timbre Wolf said:
meursault said:
objectively what can be said 'bout tubes ?
Nothing!

All of my postings about tubes are based on my subjective impressions. There is no objectivity, at all. However, in discussing my impressions, I've more often found agreement (from experienced players) than not.

meursault said:
tone depend on everything between the strings and the ears
I'll always maintain that the ultimate impetus towards "tone" is the mind. No matter what guitar/amp/speakers/tubes/room/etc. I'm given, I will be driven to create the sounds I hold within my mind, and I will play differently than another guitarist using the same setup. Some say tone is in the fingers - I say tone is in the mind.

- T
I used to think that as well,the tone is in the mind thing,and still do believe it is a big part of it.But I have come to learn that there is something to it being in the fingers,not for me personnally,but my oldest son is one of those incredible players (not just bragging,but he really is) and I went to see him play one night and he was using an amp that was in the club,it was an old SS Acoustic,that when I saw the other gutarist play thought it sounded just like I would expect,coold and sterile.When my son got up it sounded like a totally different amp.He has 3 amps I built for him,which to me all sound different,when he plays them they all sound the sameI think some players just have it in their fingers.Look at BB and Albert King they both use/used SS amps at some time and always had a great sound.For myself,I dont have that and NEED a good sounding tube amp,and realize a lot of it is in my head.Today these tubes sound the best,next week I try a set I compared them to,and they sound better,and I'm sure thats were the subjectivity lies.Over the years I've seen it in a lot of players,guys that were so good they just sounded great thru any amp,even SS.Can only be in the fingers.
 
mind... fingers... so what the debate about gear is all about ? i think i find it out... gear debate is for bad or average players... i can hear the difference between my old solid state amp and my caliber50... i can hear the difference between the tubes i changed, between the cabs...

a good style can sound good trough a bad amp, but it will sound better trough a good amp... i sound better now, but i have to pay more attention to my play... don't you think... if not, why do we spend so much money in gear ?

confused...
 
meursault said:
mind... fingers... so what the debate about gear is all about ? i think i find it out... gear debate is for bad or average players... i can hear the difference between my old solid state amp and my caliber50... i can hear the difference between the tubes i changed, between the cabs...

a good style can sound good trough a bad amp, but it will sound better trough a good amp... i sound better now, but i have to pay more attention to my play... don't you think... if not, why do we spend so much money in gear ?

confused...

well, i think that ... in my opinion, you probably should first decide what sort of music you are going to play and what tones you need. One tone can be very different from another - metal and jazz, for example.

after that thought has percolated for some time (in my case 25 years), then I settled down to a couple of guitars that i like to play.

next came the matching of the amp to the guitar ... different amps sound unique - correct ?? Stiletto Deuce to Lonestar for example.

Now I am amp tweaking, experimenting with the various settings. I am trying to match to tone in my ears. If I wanted to stay with a pedal board with 3 different OD/boost pedals - I would still play my .50+ - but I did not. I wanted a small board and multiple usable channels (for me) ... so I ended up with a LoneStar.

Now I am trying different tube combinations ... for an attempt to further finetune the tone.

If I was a rich and gigging player ... I would have hired someone to do this for me. Some players like what they hear stock - as the manufacturer delivered it. Others are tinkerers.

Once you get that tone in your ears, and you can make it on your equipment, you are basically done, in my opinion.

I am not a 'good' player in my mind. I listen to the absolute greats all day long at work and have acknowledged that they possess a hand/eye coordination that I lack in some respects. That tone I will never get. However, hit a chord, or a bend ... how does it sound ??? that is where most of this discussion lies - there is a big difference between talent making **** equipment sound decent due to their technique, but decent is the best it could be. an average player can sound great on great equipment - intonated/tuned/setup ...

I played the other night and was messing around with delay settings during a solo in a blues jam song we do to wind down. several people came up and told me i was amazing ... no, i was not. but i had some TONE baby ... that 335 was singing. and the LSC .... well there is a reason we are playing Mesa isn't there ??

take care ...
 
i know exactly what i'm doing and what i want to do... i'm doing some noisy math mixed with metal cliché stuff :lol:

i own my cal50+ for 6 month now... still looking for settings... but i have to be honest, if i plug my guitar i can have a ******* good sound in a second... keep on searching for fun...

i gig a lot, play in the same band for 10 years now.. playing music for 15 years... not tried a lot of gear caus' i tought (when i was a foolish punk.. .now i'm a brainiac punk :lol: ) gear doesn't matter... if your songs are good no matter the gear you use... since someone gave me a blue angel for one gig (w/ marshall 2X12)... i tought to myself "boy there's soemthing out there"...

then i began to get interest in gear... looking for The "thing"... so i started to chat here at grailtone... at the first sight everyone seem to be "sound" killer... then i realise that a lot of people here like the same stuff (with exception of course)... metal-heavy-trash-hard-nu-metal... not the tone i like... i'm more into noise/punk stuff... for me the best sounding album are surfer rosa from the pixies, experimental jet set trash and no star from sonic youth and at action parc from shellac... a long way from satriani and petrucci...

after that i realise that every advices were different... i mean EVERY advices... there was just one "convergence" : NOS tubes are better :lol:

then i began to feel a bit different from people here ! and i found it cool to meet different way to approach sound... for most of people here, the better way to have a good "crunch" is to break-up the clean channel... for me it's a twist of turbo rat (between 9 and 10 o'clock)...

anyway, discussion are really cool but at the end that's your own ears that decides... the mind... :wink:
 
GBS, I could make a recommendation for your Recto Pre. If you like a vintage 70's sound throw in a 6 pack of Philips Miniwatt e83cc's from the 60's or 70's. Wonderful dynamics and the tone is just right for classic rock, especially progressive rock.

But now reading your post again, you play metal and like crystal clear cleans. Okay, stay away from the NOS pre amp tubes then. They'll squash your clean tones compared to modern tubes giving you a thwack rather than a ping. And the enhanced dynamics might prevent the kind of deep sustain you're used to.

The mid-90's Mesa Russian 2's (white printing) actually give you great solid bell-like cleans and in general a harder tougher edge to the sound. The Tung Sol reissue will give you great sustain and gain capability but still aren't too far from a vintage style of sound.
 
Timbre Wolf said:
123thefirst said:
Okay, stay away from the NOS pre amp tubes then. They'll squash your clean tones compared to modern tubes
:? You and I must live on different planets.

- Thom

+1 Truly a different planet!!!!!! NOS In my experience is much cleaner.
I'll take a NOS RCA 12AX7 over anything new for clean tones!
 
A balanced phase inverter tube in a balanced circuit driving a balanced set of power tubes is the real recipe for clean tone sustain in a push pull power section amp...Sure like the simplicity of obtaining a great tone in a single ended amp, simpler, less finicky.

Have to say that because some posters here are obviously from different planets, that your tone is not only your amp in the chain but what your amp eats. Feed it a variety of tubes, one planet's health food is obviously another planet inhabitant's poison! So what! Live and learn by experience, not just the words of others. Variety in diet is a good thing. Find not just one solution... feed your amp an occasional change in diet and work with it!

Speaking of Tung Sol and cleans, try the vintage ones... :wink:
 
all I know is that I absolutely love my LSS after retubing with NOS, but I love more vintage, jammy music. The Channel 2 is now right on par with what I used to get from pedals like the Barber LTD and MI audio Blues Pro. Clean tones are amazing
 
I think there are always going to be huge problems when speaking of "NOS tubes" as a generically equivalent set of options. I much prefer getting down to specific details.


Speaking of which...
212Mavguy said:
Speaking of Tung Sol and cleans, try the vintage ones... :wink:
Now there is a tube that deserves more attention: the original Tung-Sol 12AX7 has superb clarity. The true Tung-Sol is a magnificent tube, and is, in my experience, the 12AX7 that is closest in performance to a Mullard long-plate 12AX7.

Tung-Sol (long-plate) 5751 are sonically similar to the 12AX7, but have only slightly less gain. As far as 5751s go, the Tung-Sol has the most gain, occupying the gain zone between 12AX7 and 5751.

- Thom
 

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