Any feed back on the JAN-Philips 12AX7WA?

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#2121313

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I'm looking at re-tubing my Simul C+ this week, I have decided on SED =C= in the power section, EL34/6L6 combo. I now have to decide on the pre-amp tubes. I have been thinking of trying a NOS in V1 and have been leaning towards the JAN-Philips 12AX7WA unless anyone can advise against and possibly suggestion something else.

Also, not sure about V2-V5, I was thinking some Tung Sols, I can't afford to put 5 NOS pre-amps and was hoping the one would really make a difference or do I need at least another in V2?

I'm hoping for anyone with experience to shed some light and share their experiences, thanks in advance!

-Mike
 
There could be your answer
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=42503
 
crane said:
There could be your answer
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=42503

Yup good info, exactly what I was looking for, I just hope for some more feedback regarding placement? Or, is there a recommended tube to that compliments the JAN-Philips 12AX7WA to be used in the other positions?
 
I should also add, I play thrash metal, mainly rhythm guitar. So that's the direction of tone I am after.
 
I don't know wich tube does what in your amp (V1 to V5) But you can for sure buy one of these and test it as input tube for real clean cleans, or in drive tube position to add some great definition to your sound. It does a great job as a drive tube in my Triaxis for..... MkIIC sound ! It definitely keep muddy away. But this is for my Ta only, haven't tested it in any other amp (if you want I could give a try in my Quad).
 
Thanks crane, here's how my amps configured:



I'd also like to know about the relation to how each valve has an "A" and a "B"...Is it like primary, secondary use/function? If that makes sense, not sure how to explain what I mean...
 
#2121313 said:
Thanks crane, here's how my amps configured:



I'd also like to know about the relation to how each valve has an "A" and a "B"...Is it like primary, secondary use/function? If that makes sense, not sure how to explain what I mean...
!2AX7's and like tubes are known as dual triodes,there are actually two seprate tubes in each envelope,each being a triad.As it shows in the diagram each triad has a different purpose.The NOS tube will serve you best in V1 as this "input tube" works with both the clean and lead channels.As to the other positions,you will really have to experiment.The second position that will affect your tone the most,would be v3 &4 these are your lead drive tubes and will afect the lead channel.I dont use current production tubes at all,but I am sure Mavguy can give you more insight as he has done some more listening tests with these than I.Hang on,I'm sure he'll be along soon.
 
Thanks Stokes!

Just some more insight into my playing and the tone I am after, I will be using the lead mode exclusively, and be playing strictly after a metal rhythm tone.

I look forward to some more input on any specific tube and placement recommendation, I open to using NOS tubes where needed.

Thanks!
 
Thanks for the cue, stokes! I was going to stay out of this one, but oh well...

If you have a head, I'd go ahead and start stocking up on some used VOS or NOS tubes.

My fave is the euro-not-trash-for-thrash Philips family of shortplate 12ax7's, fave is Siemens shortplate 12ax7, Amperex, not necessarily bugle boy, Mullard, Philips Miniwatt...Spendy! :shock:

If you have a combo, I'd stick with less expensive new production tubes for other than V1. The reason is that your amp design is so powerful and loud that loud noises with tons of gain and bass really rattle the tubes around. That vibration can expose any microphonic tendencies very quickly and shake tubes to death, vintage or new production! That is the reason Jim Marshall went to the head style of amp construction. :wink:

Your idea about using that vintage military tube in V1 is good tonally. However, just because the tube says 12ax7wa (the "w" stand for military issue) doesn't mean that the tube will resist microphonics all that well. As a matter of fact, I have some brand new NOS Hentz and Kaufmann 12ax7wa's that are microphonic right out of the box, they are relabeled Sylvania long grayplates, very similar in design to what you are asking about.

For what you are looking for I have one sure fire recommendation, RFT 12ax7. They are among the most resistant vintage 12ax7's to microphonics and they do a great dirty tone. Not inexpensive! They can be a bit darker than some, but you have the tone stack in your amp to compensate. Another tube that will be affordable and is very well made is the Matsushita 12ax7 with 45 degree getter flash, the "Japanese Mullard." Expect to turn down the treble and especially presence knob (if your amp has one) 2 to 4 notches until you get a thousand hours on them, they can rip your face off at high gain settings, but the bottom and lower mids are strong on that one. Have a few of those in yellow print Raytheon labeling. Needless to say that one will cut through the mix like a chainsaw running on Nitro! Very resistant to microphonics in my experience.

It is true from my experiences that long plate tubes tend to be, but not always, more prone to microphonics than short plate designs.

I think that Elecro-Harmonix 12ax7's have the right construction to resist microphonics, but you will have to get several and weed out the crappy ones, same with the TungSol reissue. The winged C silver box plate 12ax7 is hard to find but has metal tones in it. They can get microphonic too. Stay away from EI 12ax7's...they have long plates and flimsy micas unless you find some with doubled micas top and bottom, some of the military ones have that type of construction, not sure about the Mesa labeled ones. The so called silver bullet of theirs is not suitable for the flimsy mica reason.

Another great vintage old stock tube for your needs that resists microphonics well and sounds great cranked way dirty is the GE 12ax7a/7025a short grayplate. I'd choose that over the JAN Philips based on the microphonic resistance thang. That is going to be the main hurdle, microphonics at high gain and volumes if your amp is a combo.

And finally, GE 5751's sound great, resist microphonics well as a general tendency, the gray plate 5751's are affordable. You can probably get enough gain from your circuit even when using 5751's. Vintage 5751's have a gain factor of 70, about the same as a Sovtek 12ax7...!

If there is a slightly microphonic tube that I am really attached to, I get a couple of pieces of one inch heatshrink tubing, placing it a la mesa where the bottom of it will clear a tube socket skirt that the metal tube shield attaches to, and shrink the two layers on top of each other all the way up to where the top starts curving inward from the side of the bottle. Helps some, but not perfect, at least it's an inexpensive help...and don't worry about whether the tube shield fits over the now fatter tube, I have never heard an improvement in tone when using them, as a matter of fact the tube will just cook inside them and last not as long. If you don't have heatshrink tubing on the side of your tubes and you want longer life, check out the admittedly tech-weenie and somewhat boring post on IERC shields in my Maverick...Your amp might be different than mine as far as whether the stock shield is of help for overall noise reduction, however. The Mav does not shield its 12ax7's at all, I was using them for the el84's that run really hot in that amp design. End of commercial... :wink:

I get nearly all my vintage tubes on eBay, and expect up to a third of your transactions to result in less than perfect results for what you want and be happy as well as forgiving of sellers, there are a lot of folks selling tubes that are pretty ignant of guitar amp needs. Be generous with the 5 star feedback thang, cause if you aren't the only sellers on ebay won't be the mom and pop guys, they'll be all the big businesses we love to hate. The new feedback system of theirs really hurts the sellers. I liked the more level playing field of the old system...end of rant.

Peace. 8)
 
As always,good sound advice,Mav.Only thing I cant agree with is the combo rattles the tube to death thing.I aint saying it cant contribute to the life expectancy,I just think it is not as worrisome as it is portrayed these days.Maybe current production tubes will be affected some,but most of them dont last anyways.I have a Gemini II with the original Bugle Boys in it and the amp spent way too many years used as a bass amp for combo rattle to not have killed them.I actually have never been able to blame tube rattle in a combo for tube death with any certainty.The C+ he's talking about should have the rubber suspension for the chassis,which should allay any fears.Thats my story,and I'm sticking to it.
 
Thanks 212Mavguy/stokes!

A ton of good info to take in...My C+ is a head going into a 4X12 by the way.

Still reading Mavguy's replay in detail, I will be back...
 
stokes said:
As always,good sound advice,Mav.Only thing I cant agree with is the combo rattles the tube to death thing.I aint saying it cant contribute to the life expectancy,I just think it is not as worrisome as it is portrayed these days.Maybe current production tubes will be affected some,but most of them dont last anyways.I have a Gemini II with the original Bugle Boys in it and the amp spent way too many years used as a bass amp for combo rattle to not have killed them.I actually have never been able to blame tube rattle in a combo for tube death with any certainty.The C+ he's talking about should have the rubber suspension for the chassis,which should allay any fears.Thats my story,and I'm sticking to it.

And that's just fine by me! :) I'll stand by my post as well, and what is important is that a microphonic tube just ain't musical while all that howling and or screeching is going on, and chances are that the offending tube will be yanked out of a high volume, very high gain situation long before it dies. Stokes, you are one of the good guys here and I have tremendous respect for you and your words.
 
Mav,I hope you realize that that "Thats my story..." thing was strictly a joke.I was in no way trying to discredit anything you said there.Your critiques and taste tests are always dead on,and I share the same respect for you.I just havent seen enough evidence of combo rattling causing tube death to buy into it 100%.Granted a microphonic or otherwise bad tube will manifest itself to a greater degree if a combo is shakin' it up,but it is a bad tube already.I think people worry too much about it,to the point that some shy away from combos for just that reason.I think the higher gain circuits in Mesa's are probably more responsible for shorter preamp tube life than the combo thing alone.Oh,and lets not forget the tubes made today just wont last as long as our favorites,be it in a combo or a head.On another note,theres a seller on ebay,named n5iaw,who has been selling some Sylvania's that are excellent.I got some 6V6's and 6BQ5's that are primo.Do a search and see if he lists any more.He told me he had a bunch he was going to be listing,he's already run a few,I got 2 pairs of the 6V's and 3 of the 6B's.The boxes were in decent but very dry shape and they were definately NOS,sound great.Came from a defunct military instalation in Calif.
 
HI again Stokes, and thanks for your kind words. I did not understand "That's my story..." was meant in humor, one of my personality faults is taking things too literally. However, I wrote what I did because I have the ability, as you have also demonstrated, to agree to disagree amically! :wink:

I did just get a (new to me) combo amp! It is a real monster in a small package, loud as f__k, all the tubes are mounted on a single PCB, and it came with no preamp tube shields or skirts on the pre sockets for mounting them. The company slogan for their amps was "The tone that kills!" I am pleased to find that this amp, no longer being made, has it, especially the dirty channel, hard rock to metal tones a-plenty!

I agree wholeheartedly with you about the possibility of Mesa high gain circuits possibly having a shortening effect on premp tube life of some inferiorly made new production 12ax7's, after all, we know about the cathode follower problem in some of the newer amps, right? And there's the 5y3 thang in early LSS's too.

I did stick a couple of my precious Siemens and Mullard VOS 12ax7's in that Bedrock 651, leaving the stock Sovtek PI for now since it tested out even between the triodes, and will get out the DMM and bias tool to do some quad matching out of my collection for the power tubes. This amp moves some serious air inside the cab, quite capable of shaking the chassis, pcb and the tubes mounted to it, and I will enjoy the tweaking, it does huge gain due to a hot preamp and also huge boost to both channels coming from the fx loop. When it's turned up loud and the fx is cranked I get a nice pulsating orange light show glow from the power tubes, a rhythmic storm of hotly energized electrons going berserk!

So believing what I do about combos shaking tubes did not stop me from pouncing on a good deal. I would have liked it better as a head, I cannot lie!...but the price was right...It has a huge 8 ohm OT, I can make a y-connector and run it parallell into my semi closed back 16 ohm 2/15 with jbl g135's and semi closed 16 ohm 2/12 with JBL g125's... :mrgreen:
 
I'll bet that combo loosens the PCB before that Mullard dies!The Sovtek........its expendable.Bedrock,a very under appreciated amp.I did some work on a couple of Bedrock heads for a studio I did work for years ago,not the best construction I've seen,cant expect every body to build them like Leo,but good sounding amps..and LOUD!
 
stokes said:
I'll bet that combo loosens the PCB before that Mullard dies!The Sovtek........its expendable.Bedrock,a very under appreciated amp.I did some work on a couple of Bedrock heads for a studio I did work for years ago,not the best construction I've seen,cant expect every body to build them like Leo,but good sounding amps..and LOUD!

You're damn right that Sovtek's expendable! I labeled all three of the preamp sovteks by position with black sharpie. Gives me a place to refer to as a starting place should I wish to retrace steps. Gonna go through my tube stash for the PI, might serve up a REAL Tung Sol 12ax7 or 5751, they are soooo rich sounding. Or I might just toss in a Siemens 6201 or Mullard cv4024 in the PI for giggles. That amp is REALLY punchy in the clean channel, hard to believe it's got el84's in the power section, the punch is more like 6l6.

Nice to toss some stuff back and forth, but hope to hear from the OP soon...
 
So much to learn!

To re-cap, here's my situation. I am playing a Simul IIC+ thru a 1960B with 4XCel G12T-75's. I am playing exclusively thru the lead channel and am not concerned about achieving a clean tone at this time. My playing style and tone I am after is an old 80's thrash metal - rhythm guitar, not much lead. I love the smoothness of my amp and I would like to maintain and even improve upon if possible while continuing to keep that high gain crunch. Two other equally important qualities are punchy & well defined.

So I will be putting SED =C= in the power section, EL34/6L6 combo and playing thru the Simul class.

Money is definitely a factor right now just due to timing, I have recently bought/sold several pieces of gear so I gotta take it easy for a bit. So I am looking at trying to get 1 NOS and 4 current production tubes.

So Mavguy, it sounds like you say the RFT 12AX7 is the way to go, are there any current production tubes that I can buy that will go along well and in sense compliment one another?

I am also leaning towards buying from here: http://thetubestore.com/rsdecc83.html

They have the SED's and shipping would also be far cheaper as I am local to these guys. Although I am flexible on purchasing elsewhere. eBay might be kind of tough right now, because I can't really afford to take a chance.
 
I'd try to find an RFT, I'd look for an American made 5751, I'd get a few Electro-Harmonix, and one of those EH's I'd get with what are called balanced triodes to use for the phase inverter. If you need four new production tubes, get eight...of a couple or three brands. It might be interesting to try that long plate ecc803s of JJ's. The TAD 7025 looks like it has decent construction, might try one for giggles. A few more preamp tubes than you need is a good thing. Remember that brand new tubes often sound brittle bright and harsh, might take a good hundred hours to break them in. You'll want to turn treble and presence settings down some. You will want to mix and match in different positions and use your ears, do your tube rolling at gig volumes and remember that what sounds great when playing alone might sound like ass in a mix, it's the mix tone at gig stage volume levels that is your highest priority. Leave a particular tube in for a good 15 minutes at a time to get a fully warmed up tone out of it if you're rolling some different ones for tone tasting. Hope this helps.
 
Good call, I'll definitely get a good mix to experiment with, that we I'd also have a few spare backs as well if in a jam.

But your right, that be the best way for me to be able truly see what I like. Thanks for the tips on leaving the tubes in for 15 min and playing at gig levels. I think I have pretty good handle on thing now, and will report back once I get some tubes in and try em (a week or so).

Oh last, question Mavguy, do happen to know are there any value in getting the ones with the gold pins?

Like: http://thetubestore.com/ehx12ax7g.html

OR: http://thetubestore.com/tungsol12ax7g.html

Are the gold pins better conductors or whats the reasoning why the gold pins are priced as premium?
 
I don't think that if all other things are the same that one can hear the difference from just the gold pins. One thing I do with vintage tubes is to take a Dremel and stick in their wire wheel, run it at medium speed, and hold it in the left hand and the tube in the right, with just the tiniest pressure you can get at least the outside of the pins and in between the pins nice and shiny, the wheel is turning towards the end of the pins so if it catches it won't fold over a pin too much. The pins get a better grip in the sockets after this treatment too. I have noticed test numbers improve a couple percent on my Hickok in some instances after cleaning the pins in this fashion.

Wear protective eyewear and do it where the wire wheel pieces won't be stepped on by bare or sock covered feet, the dremel wheels shed freely at the rpm they run at, nasty little tiny metal splinters are hell to get out of yer feet!

Finally, just get a few extra new production tubes, and then start your vintage tube collection one or two at a time. There is a sticky here with links to sites where you can learn how to recognize various vintage 12ax7's by the guts in the bottle regardless of what label is on the bottle, then you can gradually add as cash comes in a bit at a time.
 

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