Why isn't everybody talking about the ROYAL ATLANTIC!

[HaggertysMusic]

Something that may be of interest here....

I just got off the phone with our Mesa sales rep and he informed me that the RA is NOT based off of the Electra Dyne. It resembles it in looks only... but the preamp circuits are of a completely different design. Hopefully we'll see these hit the shelves in April or May.

 

[Jak0lantern01]

I have a Duece, so mine's the improved one. Sorry.

 

[primal]

Something that may be of interest here....

I just got off the phone with our Mesa sales rep and he informed me that the RA is NOT based off of the Electra Dyne. It resembles it in looks only... but the preamp circuits are of a completely different design. Hopefully we'll see these hit the shelves in April or May.

So I guess essentially it is based on the transatlantic design as it appears to be marketted? (understanding it is not 1 for 1 feature wise)

I originally thought the power soak was a power scaling scheme, but after reading the site I am starting to think it is a resistive type of attenuation.

Anyone know for sure?

 

[YellowJacket]

It generates heat therefore it is most likely some sort of attenuation. There are some Egnater amps that have power scaling. There is also a list of boutique builders that use this technique on the London Power homepage. Of course, Bugera also uses it but they are really more of budget clone amps.

I have a Duece, so mine's the improved one. Sorry.

Girls stop fighting! Both your amps are awesome!

 

[>Photi G<]

It generates heat therefore it is most likely some sort of attenuation. There are some Egnater amps that have power scaling. There is also a list of boutique builders that use this technique on the London Power homepage. Of course, Bugera also uses it but they are really more of budget clone amps.

I certainly hope not, Mesa is not one to settle for the easy way out. Maybe it is some sort of power scaling, as that seems to be all the rage now, and has the least impact on tone. I think the reason it says that the soak generates heat is because it cooks the power tubes, not it's own dissipation.

 

[HaggertysMusic]

How does power scaling differ from attenuation?

 

[YellowJacket]

Attenuation basically means taking a large electrical signal and reducing. Most guitar amp attenuators are connected between the speaker output and the speaker and work by bleeding off a percentage of electrical energy generated by the amp. The excess energy is turned into heat. As you turn up the level of attenuation, more and more power is 'absorbed' by the device which contributes to somewhat of a loss of tone.

Power scaling. A knob changes the plate voltage and bias of the tubes, thereby lowering the amount of power the tubes can generate. If you turn the power (wattage) of the power tubes down, you cause them to break up at lower volumes. Basically, you can think of power scaling as being a power amp distortion knob.

 

[ziehmrd]

If you check the product features on the MESA website they have:

"Proprietary Multi-Soak™, Channel Assignable Power Attenuator provides each channel with a 5-position power attenuation switch (-16db, -12db, -8db, -4db & 0db) for Power Ratings ranging from 3 Watts to 100 Watts of Class A/B Power".

They also talk about the additional heat this feature produces. I was kind of hoping for power scaling as well but they probably didn't want to put a London Power style circuit in their normally proprietary amps.

 

[primal]

Thanks, I missed that in there specs somehow.

So essentially they have a built in hotplate minus the rheostat and load features.

I noticed in the Namm video that was posted in the ED section
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRt2EBJierU&feature=related

If you listen carefully when he starts adding attenuation, the tone seems to lose a little high end.

Now that could also just be percieved from the camera mic since the volume just went down as well.

One thing I have found messing with my hotplate, I don't really start noticing treble loss till I get to -12 -16 db. But it isn't that much and can be adjusted back in if you miss it.

The other thing I have found working a lot with the hotplate is dropping 4db when you are playing at relatively low volumes does not make that big a difference in volume. However dropping 4db when you have it cranked there is a more noticable volume drop. Of course all this could just be is the fact that my hearing is shot from 25 years of cranked guitar.

 

[JAZZGEAR]

If you check the product features on the MESA website they have:

"Proprietary Multi-Soak™, Channel Assignable Power Attenuator provides each channel with a 5-position power attenuation switch (-16db, -12db, -8db, -4db & 0db) for Power Ratings ranging from 3 Watts to 100 Watts of Class A/B Power".

They also talk about the additional heat this feature produces. I was kind of hoping for power scaling as well but they probably didn't want to put a London Power style circuit in their normally proprietary amps.

I hate to state the obvious....but does it really matter...? Attenuation vs. Power-Scaling if in the end it does what's intended -- and most importantly while preserving the tone?

 

[ziehmrd]

Correct, it doesn't really matter as long as the tone is intact. The only thing is that attenuators put more stress on the power tubes, so you might have to change them more frequently if you use the feature regularly.

 

[MBJunkie]

I am certainly no expert on the subject matter, but IMO power attenuating and "power scaling" are identical.....they both achieve the same thing....and yes, they will both generate heat and probably lower power tube life. Regarding tube life, who cares as long as you achieve the sounds you are after. My .02

 

[danyeo1]

Stiletto is a flawed amp? You've got to be kidding with that statement. It's not the amp's fault you don't know how to dial in a good tone. I played an ED at the store, totally unimpressed to say the least. I'll keep my Stiletto, but I do have an AFD100 on order as well. I had to do it.

No, you've got to be kidding ME. So tell me, why did Mesa redo the thing within a year? My ED walks all over the Ace, I've got the Ace bass on 10 and it still can't match the lowend of the Ed when it's bass is on 5. Is that my fault? Is it my fault that i have to keep the presence OFF and the treble below 3? Is it my fault they didn't make the loop footswitchable? Is it my fault they didn't add a MUCH needed depth knob? Am i the first one to complain about no lowend?

And seriously, if you can't get a great sound out of the Ed then maybe you deserve the Stiletto.

These amps sound nothing alike to me. I have no idea why there is always a comparison between these two amps. And I don't know why it would bother you to have to run a knob below 3, if it sounds good at that point. The stiletto isn't the only boogie like that. The Mark I, lonestars, etc you have to turn the treble all the way up and the bass almost off... so why does it matter where the knobs are set, if it sounds good?

Bottom line, is if the Stiletto is not for you, that doesn't make it crap. IMO, both amps have their place and are not intended to compete with each other.

Well what's everyone going to think when Mesa discontinues it? I'm guessing the Stiletto line is on borrowed time as it is.

 

[YellowJacket]

I am certainly no expert on the subject matter, but IMO power attenuating and "power scaling" are identical.....they both achieve the same thing....and yes, they will both generate heat and probably lower power tube life. Regarding tube life, who cares as long as you achieve the sounds you are after. My .02

How does power scaling generate heat and lower tube life? They are both very different approaches to the same thing. Solution 1) syphon off power to achieve a desired tone vs solution 2) lowering headroom by changing the bias and plate voltage to achieve a desired tone. The mechanics are both very different. Tremoverb94 says that power scaling functions much more like a sophisticated master volume control. Consider the variac switch on a Dual Rectifier. When you switch to 'spongy' from 'bold', it drops the internal voltages in the amp which lowers headroom and causes earlier tube break up, just like power scaling. It also EXTENDS tube life! Basically, power scaling is similar to having a knob that adjusts from bold ----> very very very spongy. Like I said, when using it on an amp it was like dialing in more 'power amp gain' into one's tone.

Quiet tone is different from loud tone. Speakers behave differently when there is tonnes of horsepower going through them. This is a fact of life. I think the 'artifacts' of power scaling are different than the 'artifacts' of attenuation. It comes down to personal preference and a question of what element of 'cranked' tone you want to preserve the most. Now they also have variable efficiency speakers available thanks to eminence. It is funny to hear guitarists discuss how turning the efficiency 'down' on one of those speakers must generate heat because it is 'attenuating the signal'. In reality, it is just more inefficient meaning it sucks power by virtue of how it operates physically. It basically takes more wattage to get the same loudness.

Well what's everyone going to think when Mesa discontinues it? I'm guessing the Stiletto line is on borrowed time as it is.

This is what I am worried about with the Electra Dyne. Mesa Boogie is a business and they are going to keep trying new products until they find one that sells and sells and sells, just like the Mark series amps and the Dual Rectifier. A lot of these other amps are absolutely brilliant and really individual, but just not the sort of thing your stock zombie guitar drones want. Many people care more about what their favourite guitarist plays than they care about finding their own individual tone. If Mesa discontinues either of these amps, we just have to snatch one up before people realize how awesome they are and the used price eclipses the highest retail ever was!

 

[HaggertysMusic]

I don't think the stiletto or electradyne are going away anytime soon.

Thanks for the explanation on power scaling too btw. Makes sense. I heard power scaling on the Suhr Badgers and was very impressed.

 

[screamingdaisy]

This is what I am worried about with the Electra Dyne. Mesa Boogie is a business and they are going to keep trying new products until they find one that sells and sells and sells, just like the Mark series amps and the Dual Rectifier. A lot of these other amps are absolutely brilliant and really individual, but just not the sort of thing your stock zombie guitar drones want. Many people care more about what their favourite guitarist plays than they care about finding their own individual tone. If Mesa discontinues either of these amps, we just have to snatch one up before people realize how awesome they are and the used price eclipses the highest retail ever was!

The problem I see in high dollar amps is that it takes a little while to gain a following. The price of the amps keeps a lot of people at bay until there's enough good word of mouth that people feel comfortable forking out their hard earned money.

The ED has a bit steeper hill to climb as many of the people it's marketed towards will have a hard time seeing past the "Mesa" on the faceplate. It'll take some time before enough word of mouth gets around that those people will actually check one out to see what all the hype is about.

Long story short, I think that now would be the wrong time for Mesa to pull the ED off the market as it's just starting to get recognition. If anything, they should run both amps concurently and see which amp the market prefers.

The Stiletto is a bit more mature an amp, and by now it's probably gained about as much word of mouth as it's going to get. The thing is that I don't know how well the amp actually sells. Myself, I'd love to get a Duece, but not enough to spend full price on a new one.

 

[ryjan]

Stilettos are all over my local craigslist and seem to be on there for quite a while. Might just be a fluke who knows.

 

[ifailedshapes]

A major flaw of an amp of this caliber (and at this price point) is a lack of a master volume. If you use the effects loop and play in more than one venue, you will constantly be adjusting the individual channel/mode masters, which also act as the send to the effects loop. This obviously will vary the amount of signal going to your processor, meaning you will also be having to tweak the input level on your processor as to not clip the signal.

Had they just included the typical (and very useful) master section, you could leave the individual masters in one spot, which really simplifies setup for an active gigging musician. If it weren't for this, this would be the closest Mesa has come to building my "perfect" amp!

 

[MesaENGR412]

I know this thread has kinda gone off topic and focused mainly on the power reducing features, but, I just talked to Tim at Mesa
about this amp and learned a couple of things about this amp that I thought I would share:

First, this amp is more of a target for Orange and Bogner fans, which is said to be a new frequency realm that M/B hasn't quite tackled yet. It IS based off of the Electradyne platform, however, it contains more gain and has even more of a BRIT inspired tonal quality. Secondly, they are still in the final tweaking stages of the amp, and hope to put it into production late Feb/early March, for those of you wanting to order. It sounds awesome to me, judging from the youtube vids that I have seen. Not my style amp for what I play, but, I wouldn't mind having one if I were to started a studio or played another type of music.

-AJH

 

[ziehmrd]

A quote from earlier in this thread...."Something that may be of interest here....

I just got off the phone with our Mesa sales rep and he informed me that the RA is NOT based off of the Electra Dyne. It resembles it in looks only... but the preamp circuits are of a completely different design. Hopefully we'll see these hit the shelves in April or May."

_________________
Don Bonomini

Haggerty's Musicworks
Authorized Mesa/Boogie Dealer
http://www.haggertysmusic.com

One guy from MESA says it's not based on the ED and another Mesa guy says it is based on the ED. That's confusing.



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