Why are Mesa's thumped on all the boards???

[Monsta-Tone]

You should have heard the foulness that eminated from my vocal oriface when it gave out on me at a gig.

:lol:


I bet. I've had to start inventing words so that my 2 & 4 year old kids don't start having a dirt mouth like me.



Did you already get it fixed? The Pacific brand transformers that Antique Electronics carries are great.

Also, the Mojotone replacements are really nice, but a bit expensive.

 

[Guitarzan]

Oh yeah! I had a Mercury Magnetics OT in the mail to me the next day.

 

[JOEY B.]

Resale value says it all. I was floored when I made money($200) selling my '95 Triple rectifier that I bought new. That helped start my C+ sickness. I bought my second one as an investment, and I'm not the gambling kind. It helps that it kicks major ***, too :twisted: .

 

[Schmoog]

I love the 81 2204. its a killer killer amp, but that is old marshall, and it really only gets two sounds, well, one actually, the second comes from playing with the volume knob. I actually had a conversation with my amp tech about this (good guy, a littel crazy, but he's been around since the 60's and knows amps inside and out backwards and fowards). the newer marshalls (horizontal input JCM 800's and on) are really built like crap. the PCB's are thin, and all the pots and everything being PCB mounted makes for a weak amp. they sound OK for the most part. I played a JVM the other day and at low to moderate volumes it sounded pretty good. but its built like a new marshall. Polished turds is the word my amp tech used. the thin PCB will warp and break solder joints. there are cold solder joints galore (went through a DSL401 combo awhile back, took me 3 days to find all the improper solder connections), and they have reduced the quality of their OTs, PTs, and filter caps to the point that they only sound good at moderate volumes, when cranked they get muddy and flabby. the cranked marshall has been dead since the mid 80's unfortunately.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

and all the pots and everything being PCB mounted makes for a weak amp.

This is true only to an extent. I have a Soldano Lucky 13 with PCB mounted pots and it sounds incredible and the build quality is better than almost any other amp I own (and that's a lot of amps ).

With Marshall, it's true due to the cheap quality of the pots and the thin board like you mentioned.

I cranked my TSL100 to 7/10 regularly in 100 watt mode w/ JJ E34L. 2 nights a week for a year. It sounded pretty badass with ESP EMG 81 guitar, trust me.

You got one of the good ones. On every one that I've owned or has come through our shop had the wrong parts in the bias section, loose footswitch jacks, TONS of bad solder joints. It got to the point where we would disassemble the entire amp and re-solder every connection before trying to repair the amp.

The thing that I hated the most about them was the lack of solder pads on the top of the boards. Makes it hard to work on while the amp is running. Sometimes you gotta reach in there when their on!

 

[Monsta-Tone]

Dutchman, you seem to have touched a nerve here!

 

[Sludgenutz]

Mesa is alright by me! I've had an '89 .50 Cal + since last August, and you'd have to pry it from my cold dead fingers if you wanted it.

I did have dial-in probs when I first got it (I had replaced the worn tubes, but my mind's ear was "locked-in" to the tonal experiences of the old tubes), until a web bro told me about the online owner's manual, and its suggested tone settings. That was a revelation! I was just trying the knobs on "5" and above.

What really amazed me, it that this Boogie amp has usable range in it's tone knobs across their entire knob sweep. A "3" on the dial is sometimes what is needed!

Let the naysayers say what they want. It only leaves better gear deals for the rest of us.

 

[Shep]

I love my 81 2204. its a killer killer amp, but that is old marshall, and it really only gets two sounds, well, one actually, the second comes from playing with the volume knob. I actually had a conversation with my amp tech about this (good guy, a littel crazy, but he's been around since the 60's and knows amps inside and out backwards and fowards). the newer marshalls (horizontal input JCM 800's and on) are really built like sh!t. the PCB's are thin, and all the pots and everything being PCB mounted makes for a weak amp. they sound OK for the most part. I played a JVM the other day and at low to moderate volumes it sounded pretty **** good. but its built like a new marshall. Polished turds is the word my amp tech used. the thin PCB will warp and break solder joints. there are cold solder joints galore (went through a DSL401 combo the other day, took me 3 days to find all the improper solder connections), and they have reduced the quality of their OTs, PTs, and filter caps to the point that they only sound good at moderate volumes, when cranked they get muddy and flabby. the cranked marshall has been dead since the mid 80's unfortunately.

I am right fixing a jcm 800 2205 ( 50watt 2channel reverb ) for a friend and it's not to bad...older Drake trannys are quite good IMO.. I think anything made after this amp but isn't worth the metal it's made from and is over priced to a point of death..Marshall really lost the plot!

I still the best marshall by far is the 81' jcm 800 ...

 

[asattwanger]

Well, I never dissed Mesa. I have always seen them in the light of very respected amps.

I will come out and say I asked alot of people {not on this board} about boogie's before buying a Maverick 10yrs after I 1st wanted one. Main reason, I was only used to cranking a amp and the sound you got was the sound you got + or - some bass. Nothing wrong with that. In some ways it's a much simpler route and you buy 2 or 3 different amps. Problem with that is well money and transporting.

I will come out and say I have played alot of Boogie's {not for any great amount of time} and I really didn't care most of them. Either to gainy and dark or dark in general. I don't like super gain and prefer Fenderish sparkle. That doesn't make the sound of Mesa's bad. Just not me.

Then they came out with the Maverick and Blue Angel. Oops I'm in the vintage side of this board. O-well, These amps blew me away. I wanted one right away. It was like the perfect fix of the Mesa design for me.

Bla bla bla in short I don't know how anyone can bash Mesa. It's not like they are new Fender, Marshall's, Voxes, or most of the companies these days.

Not that I like bashing them also. I really like a couple of Fender's line up. Custom Vibrolux is great and so is the Deluxe Reverb as far as the sound the amp makes, but the speakers and the cost saveing construction. No way. I'm sorry. I even asked why not a head option. I'd own one. I'd over look the cheap caps, resistors, pots, and pc boards because the sound is great, but a $700 & $1000 amp needing a speaker replacement ASAP. No way!!!!

Sorry had to get into that.

 

[asattwanger]

I almost foregot. Some one posted about when they change guitars that you have to change setting to adjust for the guitar change.

Sorry, but that made me laugh out loud.

For me the reason of having different guitars is to have that sound each guitar makes. Not just to have a diferent look for the same sound. Sorry, no offense.

 

[Guitarzan]

Sometimes you gotta reach in there when their on!

Yup... I've done that with the DSL. you're right about the crappy soldering joints. You can tell there's no IPC certified folks there!

 

[Monsta-Tone]

:lol:

Yup... I've done that with the DSL. you're right about the crappy soldering joints. You can tell there's no IPC certified folks there!

:lol:


That's because they get their CNC machines from the same Chinese factories as their speakers and parts. :lol:

Almost everything is done with "Wave-Soldering" machines now, but even the newer Crates that our store has, have much better soldering, and more solder on each pad.

The Crates also have double sided pads, so you can mod them or repair them without removing the boards.

 

[Restless Rocks]

I recently worked at an electronic manufacturer that assembled, soldered, and tested printed circuit boards. Most all the process of soldering was done in the wave soldering machine. With the old lead based solder generally this was not so problematic but now with the new ROhs ban on lead every thing is done with silver based solder. This stuff required a complete rethink of the wave soldering process as this stuff cools faster than lead. I'm using silver solder on my bench now and I can tell you I do not like the results as well. It has different heat range and heat dissipation factors that make many joints go "cold". I have been soldering most of my life and consider myself quite good at it but now using silver solder I really have to pay attention and closely inspect each new joint. The silver just doesn't seem to "flow" like good ole brain eating lead.

 

[Guitarzan]

I recently worked at an electronic manufacturer that assembled, soldered, and tested printed circuit boards. Most all the process of soldering was done in the wave soldering machine. With the old lead based solder generally this was not so problematic but now with the new ROhs ban on lead every thing is done with silver based solder. This stuff required a complete rethink of the wave soldering process as this stuff cools faster than lead. I'm using silver solder on my bench now and I can tell you I do not like the results as well. It has different heat range and heat dissipation factors that make many joints go "cold". I have been soldering most of my life and consider myself quite good at it but now using silver solder I really have to pay attention and closely inspect each new joint. The silver just doesn't seem to "flow" like good ole brain eating lead.

As an IPC Trainer for J-STD-001 and IPC-A-610, I frown on using Silver solder. The only reason to use it is if you're selling a product in Europe. They outlawed tin/lead in all EU facilities and imported items. Personally, I prefer the Pb/Sn, visually it is more distinguishable for proper wetting to the joints. The Ag looks like an overheated Pb joint and unless you tell someone you used Ag they will discard it as a burnt Pb joint. Don't even get me started on Ag's potental for dendritic growth and tin fingers...

 

[Restless Rocks]

I recently worked at an electronic manufacturer that assembled, soldered, and tested printed circuit boards. Most all the process of soldering was done in the wave soldering machine. With the old lead based solder generally this was not so problematic but now with the new ROhs ban on lead every thing is done with silver based solder. This stuff required a complete rethink of the wave soldering process as this stuff cools faster than lead. I'm using silver solder on my bench now and I can tell you I do not like the results as well. It has different heat range and heat dissipation factors that make many joints go "cold". I have been soldering most of my life and consider myself quite good at it but now using silver solder I really have to pay attention and closely inspect each new joint. The silver just doesn't seem to "flow" like good ole brain eating lead.

As an IPC Trainer for J-STD-001 and IPC-A-610, I frown on using Silver solder. The only reason to use it is if you're selling a product in Europe. They outlawed tin/lead in all EU facilities and imported items. Personally, I prefer the Pb/Sn, visually it is more distinguishable for proper wetting to the joints. The Ag looks like an overheated Pb joint and unless you tell someone you used Ag they will discard it as a burnt Pb joint. Don't even get me started on Ag's potental for dendritic growth and tin fingers...

Finally another reservoir of knowledge emerges from the shadows!!! I've been blaming lead this whole time as the reason I can't remember sweet home alabama anymore and now you tell me it's silver trees growing in my brain!!! (Just being a smart ***) No seriously this is getting interesting I love to get response from educated folks from which I can learn something new and I think there are others interested in some higher level discourse as well. I truly hate silver solder myself but I was getting concerned because of all the hyped up BS about it's ill effects on health. Our freind "Buddy" related a scary experience to me about his daughter and lead poisoning. You're right the visual appearance of Ag joints are embarassing. So go ahead there are some of us interested in hearing more!!

 

[JAZZGEAR]

They also get to hear all their picking mistakes in full glory.

LOL!!! :lol:

+100, I was one of those in my first ownership of a Mark IV....even having been playng for 20 years, the Mark IV highlighted my mistakes so I sold it blaming the amp.....A couple of years later I went to a gig and the guitar player was totally ripping with the Mark...precise pristine tone. So, I re-purchased, read the manual in its entirety and practiced and recorded myself to listen back to my weaknesses -- and work on my technique.

15 years later -- Low and behold......I've been married to a Mark IV ever since -- and not afraid to stand out in the band mix.

Other amps hide your mush....not the Mark IV and other Mesa's :wink:

 

[Guitarzan]

Finally another reservoir of knowledge emerges from the shadows!!! I've been blaming lead this whole time as the reason I can't remember sweet home alabama anymore and now you tell me it's silver trees growing in my brain!!! (Just being a smart ***) No seriously this is getting interesting I love to get response from educated folks from which I can learn something new and I think there are others interested in some higher level discourse as well. I truly hate silver solder myself but I was getting concerned because of all the hyped up BS about it's ill effects on health. Our freind "Buddy" related a scary experience to me about his daughter and lead poisoning. You're right the visual appearance of Ag joints are embarassing. So go ahead there are some of us interested in hearing more!!

Anything in particular? I'll start with tin fingers/electromigration. Ag is more susceptable to the phenomena(not to say that it doesn't happen in Pb, it does-just not as much). During the solidification of solder joints composed of Sn–Ag–Cu alloys, the Sn phase grows rapidly with a dendritic growth, characterized by branching. Which, as we know, leads to shorting of components in a sometimes catastrophic scenario to our beloved amps. What usually takes decades for Pb to show signs the Ag will develop these charachteristics in months/few years. Hence, we will see alot of Amps with issues perhaps in a few years. Industry has chosen blindly to go the way of Ag. I attribute it over-analyzing safety departments within companies that red flag anything that contains Pb. Thus it's taken away from us and is no longer a tool for us to do quality craftsmanship. I will always recommend and used Pb/Sn, there's no arguing with me about it.

 

[Restless Rocks]

That's all I needed to hear on Ag. I'm ordering up a spool of Kester "44" right now. So now the capitolists have found a way to make all that micro surface mount stuff have a built-in self destruct. Those cell phones and laptops now only last just long enough for the next model to come out! Then you toss it in the trash like a bic lighter. Should've seen that one coming.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

Guitarzan, that is some really interesting stuff. Are you an engineer?

I'm always amazed at how much there is to know.



All in all though, the silver solder theory goes out the window when you open up an amp and there is absolutely no solder on some of the pads.

I've seen 2 TSL's that some of the parts were easily removed without heating them up. Makes me wonder why the thing didn't blow up.


Who checks these things before assembling them into the chassis?

 

[Buddy]

Most of the peril of lead poisoning (where it does the most damage ), is in very young children . Long term exposure to high environmental lead levels can cause behaviorable problems , sleeplessness , and will lop off some I.Q points . Not to mention a host of physical damage if the dosage is massive .Don't worry about lead poisoning melting your synapses if your an adult . (lite beer will do that !) Its good to know the symptoms so any action can be taken as soon as possible to minimize or prevent any permanent damage .
I have a small 110 v exhaust fan with some dryer duct to pull lead and rosin fumes outside that works well and cost less than 10 bucks . Necessary ? hell after the late 70's and 80's I need all the damage control possible ..