Why are mesas mids vocied on the lower frequency range?

[Anonymous]

Hey i live in virgina. The feeling in the music is what counts.

 

[Chris McKinley]

siggy14,

I don't know if you actually are 14, or if you're just coming across that way by behaving immaturely. You made a categorical criticism of me based on an erroneous claim of statements I did not make in my post. I have thus far made no similar erroneous claim. You seemed from the outset to take a confrontational tone with me which is completely unnecessary. If you feel personally slighted by my subjective views of either Mesa Rectos or the grunge genre of music, I respectfully suggest that you might either post a subjective disagreement or simply ignore my comments. We don't have to be disagreeable in order to disagree.

RE: "Um you need to learn to read, I simply stated that most marshall users scoop the mids giving you the same effect as a recto, I DID say however that it will never sound like a recto or be in the same domain.". While my reading skills are still fine, you are still incorrect in this statement, as I have already pointed out. Most Marshall users (not just those who play metal) do not heavily scoop their mids. Most never did, and even when that trend was still around, it represented only a small portion of people who use Marshall amplification. Beyond that, scooping the mids on a Marshall will still not give you "the same effect as a Recto...". A scooped Marshall is a very different tone than a Mesa Rectifier.

While Rectos have rightfully been accused of being a little weak in the mids, they aren't completely anemic. What makes the effect more pronounced is the excess emphasis on muddy bass and glassy presence frequencies, especially on channel 3 modern. This does more to make the mids seem weak than any actual midrange deficiency in the amp.

In contrast, a Marshall JMP or, more likely, a JCM-800 with the mids heavily scooped will get you much closer to an early Metallica sound than to that of a Recto. Scooped Marshalls still don't have much in the way of pronounced bass, and are not capable of producing the extreme high-highs of a Mesa's presence control. Scooped Marshalls take on a very compressed quality that a stock Recto simply does not have. Even scooping a Recto doesn't result in the same sound as a scooped Marshall.

Now, I point all this out not to play a silly game of one-upsmanship, but to provide perspective on the differences in sounds between late-80's scooped Marshalls, mid-90's-to-current Rectos, and the tonal needs of modern guitarists and how to achieve them. The truth is, both the Marshall JCM-era platform and the Mesa Rectifier platform are a bit long in the tooth in their own ways. Both are associated with guitar sounds that are somewhat dated by current standards, yet both can be made to sound as modern as someone cares to make them. You just have to know how to tweak them effectively and/or which EQ's or effects pedals to add to the mix.

 

[MJ Slaughter]

I have the stock mesa black shadow speakers in my Combo. Im thinking maybe eminence red white and blues. I play blues and southern rock.

I also have the black shadow C90's in my cab and have considered the Eminence RW&B's for a change. I suspect that they will add a little more highend goodness without being harsh. They get great reviews. Go ahead and get them and let me know how they sound.

 

[JOEY B.]

Hey i live in virgina. The feeling in the music is what counts.

I'm just joking about the "delta" thing. If you want to hear a "bright" MESA, try out a Stiletto Ace combo.

 

[paytojt]

Hey i live in virgina. The feeling in the music is what counts.

I'm just joking about the "delta" thing. If you want to hear a "bright" MESA, try out a Stiletto Ace combo.

Yep, no kidding there!

 

[siggy14]

No I am not 14 and the reason I came back at you is because you continue to contribute to the mis-conception that low mid's and the amount of bass are bad in an amp and that all mesa recto's are good for is downtuned or as you say no tone grunge music.

It is people like you that keep giving the mis-conception that recto's are only good for that type of music that really pisses me off, not to mention your attack on grunge music.

But when you make statements like that you make not so educated musicians think there recto is crap and only good for a certain type of music.

Now you may have not intended to come off that way as you say you do have a recto and love it, your actuall comments make it come off that way.

As to the amount of bass in a recto, you can remove it or leave it, only thing it is gonna do is ride on top of the bass and you actually wont hear to much of it in the mix unless your bass player plays like Korn's bassist does. As long as you dont scoop the mid's you will be heard in the mix.

As to the bass being muddy, there is another mis-conception, yes it can get muddy, all depends on speakers, cabinets and the way you eq your amp. But i can tell you I have been playing recto's for a very long time and have owned many and I never had a problem with the bass on them and I dont use a EQ pedal anywhere in my chain.

As to the glassy top end, that is what is considered modern tone, you like it or you dont. I hate when people ***** and moan about mesa being buzzy, but usually these people are the same ones that like vintage amps and want classic vintage distortion. Mesa's were designed around pre-amp distortion which will always be buzzier then power amp distortion.

Once again on the marshall thing, like i said, scooping a marshall will never bring you into mesa's domain, however it will give you the same effect of mesa's not being as mid heavy and having trouble cutting through and not sounding as good during solo's, that is my point there.

You are right about one thing, i am not going to keep going back and forth here, I really hold nothing against you and I can see you are not dumb, maybe just choose your wording a little wrong and yes crap like that pisses me off. Why you may ask, because at one point when i wasnt so educated on amps i was stupid enough to let peoples little pop shots against recto's convince me they werent the amp for me.

i sold all my mesa's and went without them for a year till I figured out two things, one there is nothing wrong with a mesa recto amp, with the right EQ and cab it is a great sounding amp, it excels at certain music but can also do other types.

Second thing I learned was my mesa will never sound like a marshall, so if I want the marshall tone I need a marshall amp which is why I now own both marshalls and mesa's and depending on my mood will determine what amp I play.

siggy14,

I don't know if you actually are 14, or if you're just coming across that way by behaving immaturely. You made a categorical criticism of me based on an erroneous claim of statements I did not make in my post. I have thus far made no similar erroneous claim. You seemed from the outset to take a confrontational tone with me which is completely unnecessary. If you feel personally slighted by my subjective views of either Mesa Rectos or the grunge genre of music, I respectfully suggest that you might either post a subjective disagreement or simply ignore my comments. We don't have to be disagreeable in order to disagree.

RE: "Um you need to learn to read, I simply stated that most marshall users scoop the mids giving you the same effect as a recto, I DID say however that it will never sound like a recto or be in the same domain.". While my reading skills are still fine, you are still incorrect in this statement, as I have already pointed out. Most Marshall users (not just those who play metal) do not heavily scoop their mids. Most never did, and even when that trend was still around, it represented only a small portion of people who use Marshall amplification. Beyond that, scooping the mids on a Marshall will still not give you "the same effect as a Recto...". A scooped Marshall is a very different tone than a Mesa Rectifier.

While Rectos have rightfully been accused of being a little weak in the mids, they aren't completely anemic. What makes the effect more pronounced is the excess emphasis on muddy bass and glassy presence frequencies, especially on channel 3 modern. This does more to make the mids seem weak than any actual midrange deficiency in the amp.

In contrast, a Marshall JMP or, more likely, a JCM-800 with the mids heavily scooped will get you much closer to an early Metallica sound than to that of a Recto. Scooped Marshalls still don't have much in the way of pronounced bass, and are not capable of producing the extreme high-highs of a Mesa's presence control. Scooped Marshalls take on a very compressed quality that a stock Recto simply does not have. Even scooping a Recto doesn't result in the same sound as a scooped Marshall.

Now, I point all this out not to play a silly game of one-upsmanship, but to provide perspective on the differences in sounds between late-80's scooped Marshalls, mid-90's-to-current Rectos, and the tonal needs of modern guitarists and how to achieve them. The truth is, both the Marshall JCM-era platform and the Mesa Rectifier platform are a bit long in the tooth in their own ways. Both are associated with guitar sounds that are somewhat dated by current standards, yet both can be made to sound as modern as someone cares to make them. You just have to know how to tweak them effectively and/or which EQ's or effects pedals to add to the mix.

 

[Chris McKinley]

Ok, at least now it makes a little sense why you reacted so personally to my opinions, but I've still got to correct some erroneous statements on your part so that people don't get the wrong idea.

RE: "...you continue to contribute to the mis-conception that low mid's and the amount of bass are bad in an amp and that all mesa recto's are good for is downtuned or as you say no tone grunge music.". First, no one's claiming that low mids are bad in and of themselves. However, it is a majority opinion that the Mesa Rectifier is deficient in mids in general, and in upper mids in particular. They are also known far and wide for having way too much response in the crucial mud frequency range of 200Hz. Neither problem is something which cannot be fixed, and fairly easily I might add, but in pointing them out, I'm not introducing anything which isn't already common knowledge about that particular amplifier.

Second, and as I have already corrected you previously, I have not made the claim that "all mesa recto's are good for is downtuned or as you say no tone grunge music."

RE: "It is people like you that keep giving the mis-conception that recto's are only good for that type of music that really pisses me off, not to mention your attack on grunge music.". Again, I have not promoted that particular misconception regarding Rectos. As to grunge, it is nearly universally considered a low period for guitarists and for fans of guitar-based music. My view simply happens to agree with that majority perspective. I make no bones about my subjective opinion that grunge is crap. If you are offended by my having that opinion, I can't help you. I'm certainly not going to change it, but I might suggest you ignore it. By the same logic, I could claim as a guitarist to be offended that you like grunge, however, it would be just as silly and unuseful to do so.

RE: "But when you make statements like that you make not so educated musicians think there recto is crap and only good for a certain type of music.". But again, I have not made statements like that. You still seem not to have actually read my posts, but rather to glance over them and to conclude (erroneously) that somewhere in them they contain the claim that Rectos are only good for grunge. Such a statement cannot be found in any of my posts on this forum thus far.

RE: "As to the amount of bass in a recto, you can remove it or leave it, only thing it is gonna do is ride on top of the bass and you actually wont hear to much of it in the mix unless your bass player plays like Korn's bassist does.". That is simply untrue. What will happen and has repeatedly happened is that the excess response at 200Hz, if the bass knob is turned up, will produce undesired mud in your tone, whether live or in studio, when played through a cabinet that can handle the Recto's bass output. Beyond that, your guitar sound will not simply "ride on top of the bass". If your guitar's bass frequency output is too strong in the 50-100Hz range, it will compete with, not ride on top of, the primary frequency range of the bass guitar and the kick drum. This isn't negotiable or a matter of opinion; it is simply how the science of acoustics works.

RE: "As long as you dont scoop the mid's you will be heard in the mix. ". Simply being heard in the mix is not good enough if someone's gonna drop boutique dime on a Mesa. You would expect a good bit more than simply being heard.

RE: "As to the bass being muddy, there is another mis-conception, yes it can get muddy, all depends on speakers, cabinets and the way you eq your amp.". This is not in any way a misconception. It is demonstrable and commonplace, as most posters on this forum are aware. Assuming a Mesa cabinet or a cabinet similarly capable of reproducing the full bass output of the Recto, the sound will very easily produce mud if the bass knob is turned up. Understand, it's not the overall amount of bass that a Recto can produce that is problematic, it's that too much of that bass is in the 200Hz range. With a stock Recto through a stock Recto cab with no EQ, if a guitarist wants a super-heavy bass response in his sound, he's got to put up with a fair bit of mud along with it.

RE: "As to the glassy top end, that is what is considered modern tone, you like it or you dont.". Your argument in that paragraph is kind of silly. First, too much presence response isn't a part of modern recorded guitar parts, it's bad use of the presence control. Studios correct that problem before it ever makes it to a commercial CD. Second, most guitarists love classic vintage distortion; it's what 99% of rock n' roll is associated with. Third, one need not be looking for a Marshall Plexi sound in order to find abrasive levels of presence undesirable. It's simply a matter of learning how the presence control works on a Recto and dialing it back to more balanced levels.

Third, Mesa pre-amp buzziness has nothing to do with overuse of the presence control. It has nearly everything to do with the amount of gain dialed up on the gain control. It's also in no way limited to Mesas. Marshalls sound every bit as "buzzy" live if the gain control is too high. Most of it is due simply to hearing the unaffected signal of the amp, as opposed to the very distinct effect that the Shure SM-57 microphone imparts to recorded guitar parts. All amps sound buzzier live.

RE: "...however it will give you the same effect of mesa's not being as mid heavy and having trouble cutting through and not sounding as good during solo's, that is my point there.". Okay, but be aware that Rectos not sounding as good during solos has little to do with where the Recto's mid control is set. It has everything to do with the fact that Rectos simply do not produce much response in the 800Hz-3kHz range (the frequencies which cause a solo electric guitar to "sing"), nor the same fullness of even-order harmonic overtones produced from fundamental notes in that frequency range.

In other words, simply dialing back on bass, treble and presence, and diming the mid control on a Recto will still not get you a singing, harmonically-rich solo tone, unfortunately.

RE: "Why you may ask, because at one point when i wasnt so educated on amps i was stupid enough to let peoples little pop shots against recto's convince me they werent the amp for me.". You have my sympathies, but 1) I'm not responsible for your regretable choice, since only you can determine what is right for you, and 2) I'm certainly not going to change my mind about either the Recto's good or bad points as a result.

RE: "...one there is nothing wrong with a mesa recto amp, with the right EQ and cab it is a great sounding amp, it excels at certain music but can also do other types.". I agree, and have repeatedly attempted to detail exactly why and how in numerous threads on this forum.

RE: "Second thing I learned was my mesa will never sound like a marshall, so if I want the marshall tone I need a marshall amp which is why I now own both marshalls and mesa's and depending on my mood will determine what amp I play.". Another good point, and one that cuts both ways. While an unmodded Recto, with no effects and with the right tweaking, can produce some great sounds covering a wide range of musical genres, you simply aren't going to get the same singing solo tone out of it as you can from a Marshall, no matter how you set the tone controls. Does that make the Recto a bad amp? Not at all. But it does mean that it has had to make certain tradeoffs to be as good as it is in the areas in which it excels.

As I have mentioned (and given how-to instruction on) many times in this forum, a Recto can sing, but you will have to help it a little with the right EQing and/or effects. It's just something that post readers should be aware of in order to make the best informed and educated decision about their amp choices.

 

[siggy14]

Honestly I take back one statement, I do have a problem with you and I really dont like you. You bash amps, you think you know everything about amps and honestly it is people like you that should go play more guitar, read more about amps and spend less time typing.

Most of your information is mis-informed and you type alot of BS to try to prove your point. You take partial facts and then weave BS around it to make it fit to your opinions.

This is what I have to say to anyone reading this thread, do not take my advice, do not take Chris's advice, take a look at all the countless recordings with recto's, the number of users. Do you think all these people will still use these amps if you had to do studio magic in order to make them sound good?

If you love the tone you get from your recto then keep playing it and worry less about what people say, however if you find yourself constantly tweaking to get a tone you know was not produced by a recto, well then the recto is probaly not the amp for you. Embrace what the recto can offer, but do not try to make it something it is not!

Ok, at least now it makes a little sense why you reacted so personally to my opinions, but I've still got to correct some erroneous statements on your part so that people don't get the wrong idea.

RE: "...you continue to contribute to the mis-conception that low mid's and the amount of bass are bad in an amp and that all mesa recto's are good for is downtuned or as you say no tone grunge music.". First, no one's claiming that low mids are bad in and of themselves. However, it is a majority opinion that the Mesa Rectifier is deficient in mids in general, and in upper mids in particular. They are also known far and wide for having way too much response in the crucial mud frequency range of 200Hz. Neither problem is something which cannot be fixed, and fairly easily I might add, but in pointing them out, I'm not introducing anything which isn't already common knowledge about that particular amplifier.

Second, and as I have already corrected you previously, I have not made the claim that "all mesa recto's are good for is downtuned or as you say no tone grunge music."

RE: "It is people like you that keep giving the mis-conception that recto's are only good for that type of music that really pisses me off, not to mention your attack on grunge music.". Again, I have not promoted that particular misconception regarding Rectos. As to grunge, it is nearly universally considered a low period for guitarists and for fans of guitar-based music. My view simply happens to agree with that majority perspective. I make no bones about my subjective opinion that grunge is crap. If you are offended by my having that opinion, I can't help you. I'm certainly not going to change it, but I might suggest you ignore it. By the same logic, I could claim as a guitarist to be offended that you like grunge, however, it would be just as silly and unuseful to do so.

RE: "But when you make statements like that you make not so educated musicians think there recto is crap and only good for a certain type of music.". But again, I have not made statements like that. You still seem not to have actually read my posts, but rather to glance over them and to conclude (erroneously) that somewhere in them they contain the claim that Rectos are only good for grunge. Such a statement cannot be found in any of my posts on this forum thus far.

RE: "As to the amount of bass in a recto, you can remove it or leave it, only thing it is gonna do is ride on top of the bass and you actually wont hear to much of it in the mix unless your bass player plays like Korn's bassist does.". That is simply untrue. What will happen and has repeatedly happened is that the excess response at 200Hz, if the bass knob is turned up, will produce undesired mud in your tone, whether live or in studio, when played through a cabinet that can handle the Recto's bass output. Beyond that, your guitar sound will not simply "ride on top of the bass". If your guitar's bass frequency output is too strong in the 50-100Hz range, it will compete with, not ride on top of, the primary frequency range of the bass guitar and the kick drum. This isn't negotiable or a matter of opinion; it is simply how the science of acoustics works.

RE: "As long as you dont scoop the mid's you will be heard in the mix. ". Simply being heard in the mix is not good enough if someone's gonna drop boutique dime on a Mesa. You would expect a good bit more than simply being heard.

RE: "As to the bass being muddy, there is another mis-conception, yes it can get muddy, all depends on speakers, cabinets and the way you eq your amp.". This is not in any way a misconception. It is demonstrable and commonplace, as most posters on this forum are aware. Assuming a Mesa cabinet or a cabinet similarly capable of reproducing the full bass output of the Recto, the sound will very easily produce mud if the bass knob is turned up. Understand, it's not the overall amount of bass that a Recto can produce that is problematic, it's that too much of that bass is in the 200Hz range. With a stock Recto through a stock Recto cab with no EQ, if a guitarist wants a super-heavy bass response in his sound, he's got to put up with a fair bit of mud along with it.

RE: "As to the glassy top end, that is what is considered modern tone, you like it or you dont.". Your argument in that paragraph is kind of silly. First, too much presence response isn't a part of modern recorded guitar parts, it's bad use of the presence control. Studios correct that problem before it ever makes it to a commercial CD. Second, most guitarists love classic vintage distortion; it's what 99% of rock n' roll is associated with. Third, one need not be looking for a Marshall Plexi sound in order to find abrasive levels of presence undesirable. It's simply a matter of learning how the presence control works on a Recto and dialing it back to more balanced levels.

Third, Mesa pre-amp buzziness has nothing to do with overuse of the presence control. It has nearly everything to do with the amount of gain dialed up on the gain control. It's also in no way limited to Mesas. Marshalls sound every bit as "buzzy" live if the gain control is too high. Most of it is due simply to hearing the unaffected signal of the amp, as opposed to the very distinct effect that the Shure SM-57 microphone imparts to recorded guitar parts. All amps sound buzzier live.

RE: "...however it will give you the same effect of mesa's not being as mid heavy and having trouble cutting through and not sounding as good during solo's, that is my point there.". Okay, but be aware that Rectos not sounding as good during solos has little to do with where the Recto's mid control is set. It has everything to do with the fact that Rectos simply do not produce much response in the 800Hz-3kHz range (the frequencies which cause a solo electric guitar to "sing"), nor the same fullness of even-order harmonic overtones produced from fundamental notes in that frequency range.

In other words, simply dialing back on bass, treble and presence, and diming the mid control on a Recto will still not get you a singing, harmonically-rich solo tone, unfortunately.

RE: "Why you may ask, because at one point when i wasnt so educated on amps i was stupid enough to let peoples little pop shots against recto's convince me they werent the amp for me.". You have my sympathies, but 1) I'm not responsible for your regretable choice, since only you can determine what is right for you, and 2) I'm certainly not going to change my mind about either the Recto's good or bad points as a result.

RE: "...one there is nothing wrong with a mesa recto amp, with the right EQ and cab it is a great sounding amp, it excels at certain music but can also do other types.". I agree, and have repeatedly attempted to detail exactly why and how in numerous threads on this forum.

RE: "Second thing I learned was my mesa will never sound like a marshall, so if I want the marshall tone I need a marshall amp which is why I now own both marshalls and mesa's and depending on my mood will determine what amp I play.". Another good point, and one that cuts both ways. While an unmodded Recto, with no effects and with the right tweaking, can produce some great sounds covering a wide range of musical genres, you simply aren't going to get the same singing solo tone out of it as you can from a Marshall, no matter how you set the tone controls. Does that make the Recto a bad amp? Not at all. But it does mean that it has had to make certain tradeoffs to be as good as it is in the areas in which it excels.

As I have mentioned (and given how-to instruction on) many times in this forum, a Recto can sing, but you will have to help it a little with the right EQing and/or effects. It's just something that post readers should be aware of in order to make the best informed and educated decision about their amp choices.

 

[kramerxxx]

Chris McKinley
You mention certain tweaks that can be done to a Recto to get singing harmonic solos, can you ellaborate?

I'm pretty good with a soldering iron and if I could get my Dual Rec a little closer to a Marshall/Soldano SLO lead tone, I wouldn't hesitate to do so.

I have found that putting a good pedal in front helps but doesn't quite get it there.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Chris McKinley]

siggy14,

With each successive post, you are becoming more and more irrational, illogical, emotionally-driven and personal.

RE: "You bash amps...". Name an example of where I've bashed even a single amp in this thread so far. You can't do it. It doesn't exist, since all I have done is point out why and how a Mesa Rectifier has similar characteristics regarding low-mids to the original poster's problem. Being honest about this particular amp's legitimate shortcomings while also claiming it is still my favorite amp is a far cry from "bashing" anything.

RE: "...you think you know everything about amps...". I have claimed no greater expertise in my knowledge of amplifiers than you yourself have done, and yet I would not say you claim to know everything about amps. Hmm. The only relevant point here is that what I do know, I am willing to share freely, even if my lack of sycophantic devotion to all things Mesa happens to rub you the wrong way. Oh well.

RE: "Most of your information is mis-informed and you type alot of BS to try to prove your point.". Name one example. Just one. Oh, and provide evidence that it is objectively incorrect. If not, your claim here is nothing more than personal vindictiveness.

RE: "This is what I have to say to anyone reading this thread, do not take my advice, do not take Chris's advice, take a look at all the countless recordings with recto's, the number of users.". I would say take both of our advice, and anyone else's you find useful, then ultimately go find out for yourself what you like and what works for your needs.

RE: "Do you think all these people will still use these amps if you had to do studio magic in order to make them sound good?". Yeah, well...by that same logic, you could look at all the hordes of Marshall users and ask, "do you think all these people use Marshall amps if there were really a need for another amp like a Mesa Recto?". Argument by popularity contest. It doesn't hold water. People would still be best served by obtaining as much objective (not blindly biased) information and testing things out for themselves, then making a decision based on what they like, individually.

You have been called, repeatedly, on your false statements, and you have responded, repeatedly, by levelling further irrelevant and ad hominem criticisms. If you can't support an argument with legitimate and objective information, then I suppose making personal attacks is at least a consolation. Too bad.

 

[Dead Moon Rising]

why the big argument about Rectifers when the guy want's help with his Lonestar?

On the original topic: what speaker cab do you use? if you use a 4x12, maybe an openback 2x12 or something similar might be better. and eq pedal, as suggested before, is the simplest way to get a dramatic tonal change. If you really don't like it maybe it's not the right amp for you.




On to the argument:

In other words, simply dialing back on bass, treble and presence, and diming the mid control on a Recto will still not get you a singing, harmonically-rich solo tone, unfortunately.

i want to disagree here, i got a killer lead tone by diming the gain and mids on ch3/Vintage and the presence not even half way up.

Chris McKinley
You mention certain tweaks that can be done to a Recto to get singing harmonic solos, can you ellaborate?

I'm pretty good with a soldering iron and if I could get my Dual Rec a little closer to a Marshall/Soldano SLO lead tone, I wouldn't hesitate to do so.

I have found that putting a good pedal in front helps but doesn't quite get it there.

Thanks,
Steve

not to be an ***, but why not sell it and buy a Marshall or Soldano? would you buy a Chevrolet and have it modded to be like a Toyota?

Second thing I learned was my mesa will never sound like a marshall, so if I want the marshall tone I need a marshall amp which is why I now own both marshalls and mesa's and depending on my mood will determine what amp I play.

best point of this argument. If you don't like the sound of an amp, get one you do like.



and what's wrong with grunge and "Nu" metal anyway? after i got bored playing thrash i need something new to do with aggro guitar, and the stuff Munkey and Head did blew my mind. Wes Borland is Brilliant too, just was stuck behind a dork for a frontman.

 

[Chris McKinley]

kramerxxx,

RE: "I'm pretty good with a soldering iron and if I could get my Dual Rec a little closer to a Marshall/Soldano SLO lead tone, I wouldn't hesitate to do so.". Whoa, there. I'm not suggesting anything as drastic as would need to go after your amp with a soldering iron. In fact, unless you really know what you're doing, it can be deadly dangerous to do so, as amps can build up a large capacitance of electric charge and store it, even if you haven't had the amp turned on in months. If you close circuit with that charge, it could be enough to kill you, seriously.

RE: "I have found that putting a good pedal in front helps but doesn't quite get it there.". What exactly have you tried? I'm curious. What I recommend may still not prove acceptable to your ears anyway, but I'd like to know what you've already experimented with.

 

[Chris McKinley]

Dead Moon Rising,

RE: "why the big argument about Rectifers when the guy want's help with his Lonestar?". I agree, it is kinda silly isn't it? I simply brought up the similarity between the original poster's problem and a tendency of the Recto series to produce the same problem. siggy14 then took personal offense that anyone would dare criticize the Recto, even in regard to something that is common knowledge, and has continued to escalate a personal argument ever since.

RE: "i want to disagree here, i got a killer lead tone by diming the gain and mids on ch3/Vintage and the presence not even half way up.". Excellent. Thanks for sharing that approach. I've tried it and it didn't work for me, but maybe someone else will find it's perfect for them.

RE: "not to be an ***, but why not sell it and buy a Marshall or Soldano? would you buy a Chevrolet and have it modded to be like a Toyota?". Because if you could have a Mesa, and find a fairly cheap way to also capture some of the tones of which a Mesa isn't normally associated, that would be better than having to choose between them.

RE: "and what's wrong with grunge and "Nu" metal anyway?". Nothing...if you happen to like it. I don't, with the exception being that I do like some of the powerful tones of detuned crunch, but only very occasionally...kinda like a strong spice. A little is great, but it can be easily overused.

Still, that's just my opinion. Secure people should not feel threatened by someone not sharing their opinion about something. We can joke around back and forth in good fun, but nobody needs to get carried away.

 

[Anonymous]

Well i have the 2x12 combo that has a ported back like the rest of the lonestar 2x12s. I am gona get a 2 Eminence Texas heat speakers. So far im looking for help and i am still stuck. What else could i try? I know a lot about amps and i know i could put in a smaller resister on the tone stack to make the mids come out more. Is there anything else i can try before moding my amp?

 

[kramerxxx]

I have ran a Tim pedal in front of my Dual Rec with great results. I set it to just push the input without too much drive and the harmonic content is rich and full. The problem with this pedal is it is true bypass and I'm using passive pickups. With the pedal bypassed I lose considerable fidelity, the highs are dull, the overall clarity is sacrificed. I have had better success with pushing the front of the amp with a modified TS9, which has a buffer circuit built in. This works with a SD-1 too. I've modified both of these pedals from kits and info I've dug up from the Internet. I have done the same thing with a TC chorus pedal, which has a buffered signal converting from HiZ to LoZ. Again, it really helps the amp but removes that guitar - chord - amp simplicity. I own an OCD that also sounds good with a Dual Rec but it too is a true bypass style pedal.

I was curious if there was a way to get the same result by replacing a few simple parts in the circuit. I understand the risks of electricution.

 

[nemesys]

and what's wrong with grunge and "Nu" metal anyway? after i got bored playing thrash i need something new to do with aggro guitar, and the stuff Munkey and Head did blew my mind. Wes Borland is Brilliant too, just was stuck behind a dork for a frontman.

There's nothing wrong with grunge and nu-metal. I don't buy the notion that it's considered a low point for guitar music either. If anything, it's more guitar-centric than the 80's metal that's so popular now, with the spare, synth-less arrangements, though I would argue that songwriting was centric. Just because not every song had a flashy million-note guitar solo doesn't make them bad. The guitar, as with all of the instruments, should serve the song, not the other way around. And, there were some great grunge songs which sounded like nothing else that was popular at the time, and a lot of people liked to listen to them.

It's fashionable now to bag on 90's music as being underplayed and lacking technique, just as it was fashionable ten years ago to bag on hair bands for being overdone and image-focused (I think the hair bands were overdone and too image-focused after a while, and it's mystifying to me that people like that stuff now, but that's because I'm getting old, not because it's inherently bad). And, you know what? In a few years, it'll come full circle again, and something will come along that was influenced by the grunge era, and it'll be fashionable to hate the stuff that's being made now. It doesn't matter, it's all music.

 

[Chris McKinley]

kramerxxx,

True bypass is not likely the cause of your signal degradation, since you are effectively adding only approximately 3 to 5 inches of additional length of wire through which the signal is having to travel. Even with stock wire, that's not enough to cause noticeable degradation. Poor quality capacitors and/or poor quality connections are far more likely the culprit.

More likely still is the possibility that the strength of the unaffected signal has not been reduced at all, and that the minimum signal boost provided by the affected circuit is set too high. This is often the case with mod kits where the dynamic range of the pedal's maximum output is expanded, but which also raises the minimum affected volume level as well.

As to guitar - chord - amp simplicity, too much is made of that, IMO. Simplicity of connections is something you generally only have to pay attention to when you're setting up or breaking down your rig. By comparison, unsatisfying tone is there in every note you play and can't be easily ignored. Guitarists from previous generations would have done ten times the amount of work to get the tones we can get so easily today. Merely taking the time to connect a pedal between your guitar and amp is hardly a lot of effort for the improvements it can make in your tone.

Rewiring the entire tone stack of your amp, even if done by a professional, is a bit drastic in comparison, and certainly far more expensive and invasive. You'd also be be talking about reconfiguring the amp to work best with EL-34 power tubes. By the time it's all done, it's not really the same amp, and you would likely have been better served to have simply traded it in for a Stilletto or Marshall.

 

[kramerxxx]

Chris,
I would certainly like to believe you on the True bypass point, but I cannot. I have put this to test with each of my amps and I have the same result, regards of the amp I choose. Now there might be something in the wiring of my guitars that causes this but the effect is none the less there. I have a Cornford, a Bad Cat and my Mesa that I have tested this theory with. The Tim and OCD are stock pedals, unaltered by me. And I cannot imagine that 2 different manufacturers would be guilty of putting poor parts in these amazing sounding pedals. Regardless, it is what it is and no amount of posting or discussion will change that. YMMV

But I will agree with you on one point: it is not that much trouble putting a pedal or two in the chain to accomplish the end results, I was just curious if you knew more than I and you would be able to share that information.

I have been playing guitar now for about 35 years, all told, with most of them being tube amps. I have done my fare share of trying, trading, buying, selling, owning and experimenting with all things amplifier for many years.

thanks for you comments and recommendations.

 

[nemesys]

How long is your total cable length? This is a common issue with a totally true-bypass signal chain -- once your total cable length, counting your guitar cables, patch cables between your pedals, and the internal wiring in your pedals, gets to more than 25 feet or so, the capacitance of the cable starts to get into the audio range, and your highs start to roll off noticeably.

Personally, I like having a buffered pedal or two in the chain somewhere so I don't have to worry about cable length if I'm running a lot of pedals. You seem to want to keep things simple -- you might get good results using a couple of good-quality ten-foot cables (you don't have to go overboard, just avoid the really cheap ones). This is a little unorthodox, and it may not work well (it won't hurt anything, it just might be noisy), but you might try using a speaker cable between your pedal and your amp. Speaker cables have very little capacitance. Lacking shielding, it will certainly be too noisy using it between your guitar and your pedals, but it may be okay further along the chain.

 

[nemesys]

Edit: sorry about the double post...