Where's The Tight Bottom End?

[CudBucket]

My issue is not necessarily a Road King II issue. I have a Carvin Legacy as well and no matter which head I play, I can't get a punchy, tight low end. I use one 2x12 at a time. I made them and they are identical in size as a 2x12 Mesa recto cab except that my speakers are front loaded and I've ported the cabs. That makes them very much like an Ear Candy Buzz Bomb or CAA 2x12 cab.

Many of you have probably seen them. Here's a couple pics:

Anyway, I've experimented a bit with them and made some changes which is how they got into their current configuration. I tried some polyfill in the cabs and currently have taken it all out. I've got Hellatone 60L speakers in the cabs right now. I had Tonker/Swamp Thang pairs in them before.

I normally have the cabs on the following rack I made:

I think I discovered yesterday that I get a tighter bottom when the cab sits on the floor so the rack may be on it's way out.

Here's the thing... Let's assume my cabs are the problem, do you think that I'd get closer to where I want to be if I got say, a Road King 4x12 cab or even a Stiletto (standard) 4x12? I'm considering all and almost any cab. Bogner OS 2x12, Avatar Vintage 4x12, etc., etc.

Lastly, I often read about Mesa owners, regardless of amp, suffering from muddy or loose low end so I know I'm not alone. I'm into Petrucci type bottom end, BTW.

Thanks.

Dave

 

[phillyred79]

I don't listen to a lot of Petrucci, however I use a 2x12 recto cab with my RK II and I have the cab sitting on concrete with the head on top. To me, it has plenty of low end to where when it's really cranked in 100W setting you can feel the bass in your chest! I've found that by backing off the bass eq I actually get a better response from the cab. Kinda of like a less is more. Also, the RK II gain settings when maxed really seem to focus on the higher freq. (obviously) and cancel some of the low end. I guess the point is, keep tweaking and sometimes making counter-intuitive choices with the Eq will surprise you!

 

[alongcameandroo]

I found the exact same thing philly - I always used older amps before i got my roadster like Trace Elliot and marshall jmp valve stuff. I found myself eq-ing my roadster to what I used to do with my other amps and ias soon as I started going against what I was used to, my roadster really came to life.

 

[ibanez4life SZ!]

To me, the rectifier gain is all mud. I dealt with the tone for a year, trying to refine it, but I couldn't. Mark IV here I come

The oversized cabs are not helping you. I got the Stiletto (traditional :wink: ) 4x12 for replace my rectifier standard (oversized) 4x12, and it helped, but the rectifier mud was still there. It's just part of the tone...some love it...for my applications, it's no good.

So your call....

 

[richey]

I have a rectifier cab and I remove the casters to get it directly on the floor. It sounds much better. At one point I had a full stack but got rid of the bottom cab because the top cab lost a lot of low end by not being on the ground.

 

[Platypus]

My 2x12 sounds much punchier on the floor

 

[clutch71]

+1 to being on the floor.

The RK cabinet does have the open and closed back+V30 and C90's. With my ROV the combo speaker is a C90 and I combine it with a 2x12 rectifier. Very punchy.

 

[123thefirst]

Pickups and strings have a very large amount to do with flubbiness too in my opinion. I suspect (from listening to sound and video clips) that the vast majority of hot-rodded, custom or metal type pickpups are just too bassy and have poor overall response to get really great tone with Mesa amps.

I had been using Dean Markley strings for many years and they work really great for a Telecaster into a Mesa amp. But on a vintage Gibson with humbuckers they mush out in the bass at higher gain settings. I switched to Gibson pure nickel vintage strings (which are more expensive) and no longer have any problems at all. The tone shines even 6 or 9 months after changing strings.

 

[wildrat666]

you must crank the amp . on high volumes you get the punch. and crank that mid to at least 1oclock. or try a tubescreamer in front to get some tightness

 

[CudBucket]

you must crank the amp . on high volumes you get the punch. and crank that mid to at least 1oclock. or try a tubescreamer in front to get some tightness

After yesterday, I agree with you 100% on both counts. The punch is in the mids and volume. Not the bass.

 

[nathan28]

I swear guys, it seems like everyday i read a post, "my rec isnt tight enough, my rec is muddy". LEARN HOW TO USE YOUR AMP. I have had three mesa boogie recs, a single rec, triple rec, and now my rk and i have never had a problem with muddiness or gettin them tight. If you cant achieve tightness, then your problem is elsewhere, you either need hotter guitar pickups, turn your amp up more, or you need to boost it. I use emg pickups, and a clean boost in front of the amp, and it is sonic bliss. I have used several different guitars with various pickup combos through the recs, and it almost seems like they were made for emg's. Since you have a Roadking try these settings:
Channel 4: bold, diode. 2xel34 2x6l6.
Master: 10 oclock
Bass: 1 oclock
Mid: 10 oclock
Treble: 1 oclock
Presence: 11-12 oclock
gain: 1-2 oclock
After this i use a clean boost, just slightly. I have a 4x12 mesa cab.
I repeat if your rec is muddy or doesnt have the tightness, you are eqing wrong, not turning up loud enough, not boosting, or your guitar is not hot enough.

 

[abecon5]

After this i use a clean boost, just slightly.

what do you mean by clean boast??

 

[oyster]

1. Like others have said, Always put cabs on the floor or equivalently solid surface, the less stable the surface the more energy it will absorb and transmit through the movement of the material rather than into the air in front of the speakers where you want it.

2. No more ported or open backed cabs, same essential reason (although I don't know why Lynch's cabs seem to get away with it).

3. 2X12 will never have the thump of a 4x12 because it is a larger enclosure and obviously four speakers rather than just two. :wink:

 

[nathan28]

A clean boost is a pedal that boosts your guitars signal, without adding any tone coloration. The most popular is a tube screamer with the tone and distortion controls at minimum and the level control turned up. There are several of them, bbe makes the "boosta grande". Once again, these are just signal boosters. Its kind of like turning the power of your guitar up, it slams the front end of your amp and heats the tubes up. It tightens and enhances gain when used right. When used wrong it creates awful noise, and makes your amp even more flabby. The best way to boost is turn the gain up on your amp until your happy with the amount of distortion, then kick in your boost with it set flat and begin to turn it up, once you get it right, your amp sounds like it did without the boost, but with lots of power behind it.

 

[jdurso]

1. Like others have said, Always put cabs on the floor or equivalently solid surface, the less stable the surface the more energy it will absorb and transmit through the movement of the material rather than into the air in front of the speakers where you want it.

2. No more ported or open backed cabs, same essential reason (although I don't know why Lynch's cabs seem to get away with it).

3. 2X12 will never have the thump of a 4x12 because it is a larger enclosure and obviously four speakers rather than just two. :wink:

OK.... with #1 you're absolutely correct...... but #2 and 3 are way off target...... front ported or vented cabs can produce huge tight, articulate tones if the cab is tuned correctly...... take a genz benz gflex, port city wave, buzzbomb, or freda 2x12 and they are as tight and punchy as a 4x12 mesa cab......all those cabs have properly tuned ports meaning the designers didn't just throw the ports anywhere and with ports they shouldnt just be holes but actually tubes of about 4-5 inches in length depending on the depth of the cab...... so if cudbucket did the ports himself and didnt know this stuff than that could be the problem with his cab...... and as for #3 that is just ridiculous..... i have a 2x12 Basson cab loaded with eminence legends and it thumps just as hard as the many mesa cabs ive had in the past (both traditional and standard recto cabs).... yes i know "a 4x12 pushes more air therefore more thump"... thats not always the case..... speakers, cab depth, ported vs non-ported all play a huge part in the thump..... if you want thump from a cab you first get the right speakers for thump..... celestion g12k100s, eminence legends.... both speakers are harder to break up at low volumes which means less speaker distortion.... less speaker distortion = more thump..... greenbacks break up much easier therefore they get flubby when you push them.... not good for thump but great for leads.....a lot of times the vintage 30s because they still tend to break up easier contribute to the flubbiness in some mesa cabs..... great for walls of distortion but not always great for tight thump which is why you need to know how to use a mesa head ..... when using low/medium breakup speakers less gain on your amp is actually great for thump because your letting your speakers do a lot of the work and you can find the sweet spot of your whole system using the output on the amp which is like using the clean boost concept on your cab since its post preamp..... i find the tighter you keep your preamp section (channel gain and volumes near 12 oclock) the tighter you can keep your distortion by using the output level as your volume control...........so in conclusion:

1. having a 2x12 does not mean you have no thump
2. having a ported cab does not mean you have no thump..... actually you might have more if the design is like the gflex.... as long as you have a closed back the cab will stay tight.... you just need the ports/vents tuned correctly
3. having the right speakers can make or break you sound
4. know your setup..... know how the speakers interact with the cab enclosure and how the cab interacts with the amp and so on to your guitar, your pickups, your cables (dont laugh.... make sure you have good cables), your effects if you use them

 

[playdosboogies]

i agree that there is no thump like a good 4x12...it just cant be duplicated with anything else, and ive tried most of them..

 

[CudBucket]

LEARN HOW TO USE YOUR AMP.

I think that's what I'm doing.

 

[jdurso]

i agree that there is no thump like a good 4x12...it just cant be duplicated with anything else, and ive tried most of them..

i guess a 4x12 is just the easy way to get a good thump but it can be done with 2x12s .... you just have to do your research which requires more time and searching but wouldnt you rather be lugging a 35-50 lb 2x12 than a monsterous 100+ lb 4x12?

 

[stash49]

4x12-the only way to fly. Start pumping a little iron, you know-work on those lats.

 

[pierre-olivier]

1. Like others have said, Always put cabs on the floor or equivalently solid surface, the less stable the surface the more energy it will absorb and transmit through the movement of the material rather than into the air in front of the speakers where you want it.

About the "put the cab on the floor" thing... All that it does is it improves the contact patch between the cab and the floor thus improving the transmission of bass frequencies to the floor.

So basically with the cab on the floor you not only hear the cab itself but you hear more of the floor as well since the floor is now resonating along with the cab.

I personally have a 4x12 Recto Traditionnal (a.k.a Stiletto) in a flight case. I actually prefer my tone with the cab inside the case. The foam padding as well as those big blue rubber casters tend to isolate the cab from the floor and I find that the bass is more focused that way. Much like when you use spikes with hi-fi speakers.

Plus, I don't really have any control over the "tone" of my floor, so I prefer not to add one more variable to the equation of tone wich I find has enough variables already :wink:

That being said, recording is another story, it won't make much of a difference when close mic'ing a speaker anyway (unless you blend it in with a room mic).

My .02