what effect does body wood have on tone?

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Rocky said:
During the week maybe you can elaborate on your tests. I'm still not convinced that you used proper, controlled, scientific principles.

That way you called me a dumbass.
Who the hell are you to judge if I know how to do it or not ?
You don't know me.
It's nonsense.
You simply think I don't know how to do it.Where the hell that thought came ??
It will be the same thing if I said hey how can you hear the differences if you don't even know how to play a guitar ?
It's nonsense ,I don't know you so I don't SUPOSE nothing about you.

You don't know me so you cannot supose anything about me.
:shock:
 
You don't know me so you cannot supose anything about me.

I totally disagree with you on all levels, IMO you can't judge the effects of tone of a guitar with a SA. it is a very one dimensional analysis.

Are you checking for average peak Fc, Max Fc, with the same player Playing the same lick, Exactly the same way?

I hooked up my rig and did a SA with my guitar today just to see what would happen if I checked it with and without Chorus. Wow exactly the same. So chorus must be in my head then as it makes no reasonable change on the SA. Wow thanks for opening my eyes now I can get rid of most of my effects , their not really affecting my tone.
 
18&Life said:
Rocky said:
During the week maybe you can elaborate on your tests. I'm still not convinced that you used proper, controlled, scientific principles.

That way you called me a dumbass.
Who the hell are you to judge if I know how to do it or not ?
You don't know me.
It's nonsense.
You simply think I don't know how to do it.Where the hell that thought came ??
It will be the same thing if I said hey how can you hear the differences if you don't even know how to play a guitar ?
It's nonsense ,I don't know you so I don't SUPOSE nothing about you.

You don't know me so you cannot supose anything about me.
:shock:



calm down, you haven't been called a dumbass or anything like that by me...and you wont be. I didn't draw any conclusions, I questioned....there is a difference.

'Who am i?' I'm just someone that has a couple degrees in sciences. That is also why your methods intrigued me.

I am just trying to see what you did in your tests...I'm not convinced that it was/is a valid method to draw such strong conclusions. Like i said earlier your work in this is interesting from a scientific standpoint. I don't care if there is a difference in tone or not per se'

I made no judgement about you at all until you got defensive. I can make suppositions about you based on your words and tone here, but hey...whatever works for you.

Like I said earlier, have a good one.
 
Pablo1234 said:
You don't know me so you cannot supose anything about me.

I totally disagree with you on all levels, IMO you can't judge the effects of tone of a guitar with a SA. it is a very one dimensional analysis.

Are you checking for average peak Fc, Max Fc, with the same player Playing the same lick, Exactly the same way?

I hooked up my rig and did a SA with my guitar today just to see what would happen if I checked it with and without Chorus. Wow exactly the same. So chorus must be in my head then as it makes no reasonable change on the SA. Wow thanks for opening my eyes now I can get rid of most of my effects , their not really affecting my tone.

thank you for posting that. It demonstrates that a tool must be used properly to draw a proper result. Your little test demonstrates that the results one may draw from an SA is not going to be true JUST BECAUSE there is a result. Clearly an SA is not designed to test tone.
 
hey let's fight,it's sunday and we are here on a computer :lol:
Ok my friend sorry my answer .
angard :lol:
 
Actually an SA is the perfect tool to test for tone, the problem lies in the performance, settings of the test equipment and environment. !8&life stated earlier he sued a Sure SM57, this in itself shows he was not only testing the wood of the guitar and the pickup combination but also the room he was in witch will have a very definitive impact on his test.

Also most SA's are full spectrum for audio that would be 20hz to 28Khz. guitar is 80 hz to roughly 8Khz with harmonics included. SA would need a very good resolution to really test the tone of a guitar and as most all except digital ones like Sonars built in ones it will be a very wide spectrum with resolution for that spectrum. If you had the same resolution in just the guitar Frequency band then you would see a much more detailed analysis.

On a side note Tone is a word used differently by guitarists than is used by most other people. Tone for a guitarist can encompass a combination of things such as envelope, resonant harmonics, and attack. A SA would not show this things.

It is a great instrument to have imo, but you are correct in that its limitations are really that of the users perception of what it truly can do and what data it truly represents.
 
Spectrum analyzer will only tell you how much is a certain range of frenquencies represented in the overall picture.

Try actually using electronic oscilloscope with different guitar woods. Check for the signal envelope which reflects timbre, which in turn tells you a lot about the 'perceived' nature of sound (harmonic content).

Bottom line (as any electrical engineer who dabbled in audio will tell ya), wood makes quite an impact on the sound. Of course, like audio speakers, guitars need not necessarily be made out of wood. Matter of fact, anything that resonates at all will do. In general, throughout thousands of years, we kind of developed a certain liking to certain ways certain woods may resonate.
 
I completely agree. Sound has many variables, each of which contributes to tone and timber. Timber is a combination of Attack, Envelope, Harmonic Resonance and overall Tone.

A SA can show you Average Frequency response over a wide band.

An analog O-Scope can show you magnitude, Phase Response and Frequency. Also it shows the over all Waveform shape. Voltage based signals and if you use a current probe it can also show you Current/Voltage relationship. This is a very difficult thing to analyze with Real Time O-Scope as it takes readings and the calculations are up to you.

A Digital O-Scope can show you everything an Analog O-Scope can and also log the data and perform calculations and produce trends for time based readings, Such as Envelope and Attack, each of which are a different view of the same data.

Logging the data if the most efficient and accurate way of analyzing the data you will need to compare woods, construction and pickups.

The one major problem with SA is that a normal bode plot requires an input signal from a very reproducible source to be able to compare 2 unique systems. In the case of a Tone stack you could inject a pink noise, white noise and a sweep Sine, Square, Saw tooth and Triangle wave form to get very different results from the effect of the tone stack. Each of which will show you a different parameter to compare with a different tone stack.

The ear can immediately detect subtle changes in sound response that no one instrument can detect them all. I agree that the mind can skew perception, but it is very unlikely that the majority of people playing, building and selling guitars could be wrong about the perceived differences in woods on an electric body guitar.
 
I have a Reallygoodearascope built into my cranium and it tells me that different woods sound different.
 
+1 Pablo1234

+1 Rocky


Mind you, my best buddy is (now an almost famous) luthier and we sit there for hours (he sat there for 7-8 years prior :D ) studying effects of the wood on otherwise exactly same guitar setup. Meaning, different body wood, albeit exact same design and shape, with exact same electronics, neck and hardware. World of difference. Now, and he's a master at it, as much so that Paul Smith, Gibson folk and others are ripping some of his designs off. No worries, though it's all getting patented. One of his discoveries, related to body woods, is that you can mimic different wood's tonal qualities by routing the body differently on the inside. So he came up with (patented) Sound Vents technology. This way he can alter sonic capabilities of the wood somewhat, cleverly choose pickups and neck material and have a mahagony body guitar that uses a single coil pickup and, equipped with maple neck for example, sounds very similar to Strat.

You can't really reveal all that much using software based SA alone.

Cheers.
 
Rocky said:
I have a Reallygoodearascope built into my cranium and it tells me that different woods sound different.

He he, definitely the best answer in this thread! :D

I think the final judgement of a guitar tone must be our brain's one, so how we feel it, and every person is different from another one out there.
BUT I believe that IT IS A MATTER OF FACT THAT WOOD AFFECTS ELECTRIC GUITAR TONE. The body and neck wood help to sustain strings vibration, enhancing some frequencies over others, depending on the physical nature and structure of the wood. However the effect of wood can be heard and felt differently from person to person (due to our human nature, we're not all identical scientific instruments). I think pickups play a greater part than wood in achieving the overall guitar tone, but wood helps too. In a certain way it's even wrong to say what counts more, because pickups and wood do not work in the same way in contributing to the sound... they rely on different physical origins. I'm just saying that if I had to choose what to do to obtain a specific guitar tone I personally would first think about the suited pickup and then about the wood. And I think a feature as important as the wood type (and often probably even more) is the construction quality of the guitar (solid and well designed bridge, nut, neck...) which allows the vibrations to be transmitted to the wood in a perfect way.

Then, if physicians follow me (I hope they will say I'm wrong if I am), the differences of the attenuation/enhancement/sustain effect that different woods have on the acoustic waves produced by guitar strings are ideally more evident [the differences] when frequencies are higher. This because of the fact that for longer wavelenght (so lower frequencies) the Continuum Debye model is more appropriately applicated, and it happens as if the acoustic waves were "seeing" a continuum material through which they're were propagating (approximately not taking care of the atomic/molecular microscopical nature of the crystalline/amorphous reticuluum of the material itself), just like a gelatine.
Waves propagating through the wood with a higher frequency (shorter wavelength) obviously would "discern" in a better way that atomic/molecular microscopical configuration, because they can involve microscopical and not macroscopical motions into the material. As a result, higer frequency acoustic waves would be more affected by the microscopical nature of the material, and obviously wood, steel, glass and plastic do not share the same structural nature. That said, we could argue that we would better hear the tone difference playing higher notes, so higher frequencies, while we would not hear those differences in low frequency notes so well.
Hey, you few who have followed me! :D After all this explanation I must say... all I said doesn't count for tonal differences to me. Just because I think there are not so high frequencies involved in playing guitar (even considering the highest harmonics), and there should not be anything related to atomic/molecular structure, displacement order/disorder. BUT, what counts to me it's the different density (gr/cm^3) of the different materials used to be part of a guitar body/neck. And a different behaviour for acoustic waves is surely connected to the density of the wood (or the plastic), how they are, one more time, sustained, enhanced or attenuated. Then, there is a continuous change of density inside a wood, just think about wood's veins... so we could say that higher frequency waves should ideally not be as affected by density variations as the low frequency waves instead are (the contrary of what happened before!), because the higher the frequencies, the higher the possibility that the wave can be sustained into a single vein, while the lower the frequency the higher the possibility that the wave can extend to regions of different density.
I apologize for the long post and i it feels too pompous, but I'm here also to make experience of english language, so sorry!

I would like to end this post in the way it has begun. I think I gave physical true reasons for which wood is important to obtain a specific guitar tone, but the main important thing is reassumed by rocky's post:

Rocky said:
I have a Reallygoodearascope built into my cranium and it tells me that different woods sound different.
 
Dersu Uzala said:
+1 Pablo1234

+1 Rocky

-1000 18&Life
I think more than half the members of this board play with moderate distortion to all-out ultra hi-gain distortion. If you are in the all-out ultra hi-gain distortion, you probably can't tell if you are using hi price Les Paul or an LP made by Cort.

Now bring this subject to say Vintage Guitar Bulletin Board where these member live / breath vintage guitars and amps playing at clean to moderate gain. They could tell you practically make out the type of wood the guitar is made up of and whether you are using single coil or humbuckers. The P90s is their threshold.
 
I am a clean to moderate gain guy, it is VERY easy to hear the diff b/w ash, Alder, Mahogany etc.
 
Rocky said:
I am a clean to moderate gain guy, it is VERY easy to hear the diff b/w ash, Alder, Mahogany etc.
:shock: Yes, but can you tell when the mahogany was cut down from the Brazilian forest and dried in the kiln. That's where I have trouble. :lol:

But say one of my Fralin pickup had one extra wound, yeah, that's easy to make out. :lol:


Just kidding Rocky, there's some generalization you make about tonewoods which your ear could tell you. :wink:
 
RR said:
Yes, but can you tell when the mahogany was cut down from the Brazilian forest and dried in the kiln. That's where I have trouble. :lol:

You sure would. There is no mahagony in Brazilian forests. Most of it comes from Central America.
 
Dersu Uzala said:
RR said:
Yes, but can you tell when the mahogany was cut down from the Brazilian forest and dried in the kiln. That's where I have trouble. :lol:

You sure would. There is no mahagony in Brazilian forests. Most of it comes from Central America.
4_18_1.gif

O-kay, uh ... tell the difference in tone between FSC certified mahogany and smuggled mahogany.
 
18&Life said:
Pablo1234 wrote:

You can not make a Strat sound like a Les Paul and vis versa purely becuss of the construction and materials used.


Sorry but it's a nonsense.

A strat and a lespaul with evos through the same rig will sound the same.That's no doubt about it.
I have a les paul and an esp both with evos and completely different woods.Through my rig they sound the same...

Strat's and Les Pauls don't even have the same scale length, which also contributes to timbre.

I will agree insofar as some of the details are nuances, but in my experience a well developed set of ears can hear subtle differences even if a Shure SM-57 microphone won't reproduce them for scope observation or onto tape.

Every guitar is different, except maybe the same model Steinberger or something, but if it's wood and sports other differences like scale length; bolt-neck vs neck-through construction; etc., then players who have been around can hear the difference, despite what a techie with a scope and an appeal to authority may say.

While it could be argued that guitars fall in about the same range on the electromagnetic spectrum, or even roughly from "here" to "there" on the acoustic spectrum: it could also be argued that science is only relevent using an agreed upon set of criteria (which we are far from it seems in this thread): I so argue.
 
RR said:
Rocky said:
I am a clean to moderate gain guy, it is VERY easy to hear the diff b/w ash, Alder, Mahogany etc.
:shock: Yes, but can you tell when the mahogany was cut down from the Brazilian forest and dried in the kiln. That's where I have trouble. :lol:

But say one of my Fralin pickup had one extra wound, yeah, that's easy to make out. :lol:


Just kidding Rocky, there's some generalization you make about tonewoods which your ear could tell you. :wink:

I can even tell you if the person cutting the wood showered that morning.

I'm f'n GOOD
 

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