Tighten up the bottom end on my roadster

[knotts]

Hey guys. I've been playing my roadster for the past 2 years and as much as I love it, there's something I don't like about what I'm hearing. I think it's the result of a loose or flubby bottom end. It's more noticeable in the mix and just muddies things up a little. Part of me thinks that this is just the why rectifiers are and comes as part of their sound. I think cutting the gain back will have a positive impact. I run with my gains set between 9 and 12 at the most, and the volumes are set between 12 and 3 on each channel. Master is set to 9 and attenuated to keep the peace. Any thoughts or suggestions on how to tighten it up would help.

 

[LesPaul70]

Yeah, it's more or less part of the package. What makes a Recto a Recto.

That said, the traditional 'remedy' would be a Tube Screamer or an equivalent pedal, which essentially cuts certain frequencies so they won't 'mud up' the low end of your amp. And since it's a pedal, you can kick it in only when you need it, leaving the rest of your sounds unchanged.

I've also seen Recto players completely zero their Bass pots.

 

[ryjan]

EL34's or an EQ in the loop.

 

[Shemham]

If you want to go with the stock amplifier, you can try to either use boost pedal in front or/and EQ in the loop as already suggested. This will easily tighten up the tone.

In case you don't want to complicate your setup with more gear, you don't have problem with altering your amp slightly and you can solder quite well, I can recommend you to solder short jumper wires on feet of three 100 ohm resistors that are in series to cathode bypass caps in the preamp. This is what we could call Rev C/D mod. This will boost the mids a bit, give a tad faster response and remove some unnecessary low-end. Best of all, after the change it's still a Rectifier, but with a bit different feel. The jumper wires are very easy to remove in case you don't like the change. Naturally I understand that not everyone is ready to poke their high-end amps, but just though to raise this up as I believe the 100ohm resistors on the cathodes are one of the reasons the Recto series feels somewhat loose.

 

[firmani99]

I have been experiencing the same thing and I have found that my emg 81 equipped guitar sounds tighter than my JB equipped guitar. I prefer the JB on my mark iv and v and I am not crazy about the emg 81 in general but I think it works better with the rectifier because it doesn't have much output in the low end.

I think that is the key, cutting the lows before the preamp stages. I don't know if you've ever used a mark amp but when you turn up the bass pot it becomes flubby as well. The solution on that amp is to cut lows in the preamp and bring them back with the eq. I wish the rectifier had a "pre-bass" knob. I may try putting an eq between guitar and amp.

 

[bandit2013]

I do not have any flub but I can get mudd if I set the bass too high. My story is quite different since I am not running V30 or MC90 with my amps (except the RA100).

On a lighter side and more cost effective approach, swapping V1 and V2 with a Tung Sol and change in V6 with a matched Sovtek LPS will pick up the amp, enhance brightness and tighten the loose end. No need to make any circuit change to the Cathode followers. However, I am tempted to learn more on that mode just for my own curiosity. To change things up even farther, SED =C= 6L6GC or TAD6L6GC STR in the power section will definitely alter the output characteristics.

I actually like the dark tone of the stock Mesa tubes in the Roadster and can set moderate amounts of bass without flub. Since my Recto cab was bought in 2000, it was not a bother for me to change the speakers. I would probably hesitate to do that with a new cabinet. I had issues with the V30 flubbing out or getting stuck on a certain note (C on the low E string). This was all when I first got the Mark V head. Even the MC90 in my Mark IV had similar issues. I know for a fact the MC90 was fully broken in, the V30 did not get used much so they were like new. Now in use with my RA100 in a traditional size cabinet (actually the V30 sound great in the smaller cabinet, bass is more refined and bold, very hard to flub out too. Size does matter :shock: ). I opted for EVM12L Black Label speakers. They are the closest thing to the old Mesa Black Shadow EV in terms of tone and character and even the suspension material is the same. The EV classic I had bought in early 1990 seemed a bit looser in the bottom end, may look the same but different suspension material around the cone. I really missed my Mark III after I sold it. The hard facts about EV, takes much longer to break them in. After that it is awesome.

Speaker change is not always an option, and definitely is not a cost effective one either. I would first try a change in V1 and or V2 and stop there. There will be a difference in tone and gain character with just these two tubes. I really liked the Tung Sol in both. The Mesa (Ruby) power tubes sound great and they saturate quite well. However they do seem to have a low mid shift in the overall tone. TAD6L6-STR will sound great and cost much less than the SED tubes. I would first try the V1 and V2 since that is the lower cost option. If you want a similar tone to an EL34 without using EL34, try Tung Sol in V1, and Mullard CV4004 in V2. You still get the bottom end of the 6L6, with improved response, along with the lower mid cut since the CV4004 seems to have a scooped tone to it. Sounds better in V2 than in V1. Just a suggestion. Circuit board mods, probably not the best suggestion for a novice, however, it got my attention and may do this after my warranty has run out.

 

[knotts]

Thanks for all the responses. I have a Xotic AC booster and I use it primarily to give me some grit on my clean channels. I might tweak it a little bit to see if I use it to tighten up the bottom end. Maybe I'll just by the flux five and utilize the EQ as well.

With respect to tubes, originally when I bought the amp, it sounded like it had a blanket on it. I immediately put EL34's in and two weeks later, swapped them back to 6L6's because the EL34's didn't take the blanket off. The next move was to completely overhaul the preamp section which made significant improvements. Tung Sol in V1, Penta, Ruby, Penta, Ruby, Sovtek LPS. This definitely brought out the definition in the amp. I would say it mostly effected the higher frequencies. I rely on the mids and the bass to add a fullness, but with the good also comes the bad. I have EL34's in my Lonestar an actually prefer it that way. I haven't tried the EL34's since the preamp overhaul, so I might give that a shot first as it literally will cost me nothing.

In fairness, I could be confusing flubby for muddy. It's tough to tell in the mix.

I've done some soldering. I've done on broken things that don't matter if I make them work. Although successful in my efforts, I'm not confident enough in those skills to attempt this on my workhorse.

I'll keep you posted on the results. Thanks again for the suggestions and keep em coming.

 

[SonVolt]

Tubescreamer is what most metal guys use to tighten rectos up.

 

[bandit2013]

Some of the dark overtones comes from the Mesa STR440's. I have tried other power tubes and have favored the SED = c= 6L6GC overall but it does add brightness to the amp. I would definitely give a TS in V1 and V2 a try, use the stock Mesa tubes for the remainder. That actually sounds really good. If you want more edge, install a Mullard CV4004 tube in V2, that will make a huge difference on the gain stack. What surprised me was a JAN/GE 5751 in V1 with the CV4004 in V2. Don't let the lower gain of the 5751 tube fool you, especially if it is a NOS tube. To me it was too much gain. I actually like the darker tone of the stock tubes.

V30's will flub out in the larger cabinet. They do not perform well in an open cab either (they do the same thing) However, they perform incredibly well in a standard sized 412 cabinet (the smaller one). Still there is the shift in tone though the V30 when compared to other speakers. Changing speakers may not always produce the results you may thing you will get. Definitely keep other alternatives open before changing speakers.

Blanket, that is how I felt about the Roadster though the V30 cab that I have. My RA100 and Mark IV sound great thought the V30's, the Mark V and Roadster sound like a blanket is on the speakers and pillows stuffed in the cab (yes I tried stuffing pillows in the cab to hear the difference in an attempt to eliminate some drone, actually made it worse since it was due to air movement and the ductwork under the floor, installing the casters was the fix, no pillows.) Actually my V30 cab is not all that bad if I dial in the amp for the cabinet.

 

[siggy14]

If you want to go with the stock amplifier, you can try to either use boost pedal in front or/and EQ in the loop as already suggested. This will easily tighten up the tone.

In case you don't want to complicate your setup with more gear, you don't have problem with altering your amp slightly and you can solder quite well, I can recommend you to solder short jumper wires on feet of three 100 ohm resistors that are in series to cathode bypass caps in the preamp. This is what we could call Rev C/D mod. This will boost the mids a bit, give a tad faster response and remove some unnecessary low-end. Best of all, after the change it's still a Rectifier, but with a bit different feel. The jumper wires are very easy to remove in case you don't like the change. Naturally I understand that not everyone is ready to poke their high-end amps, but just though to raise this up as I believe the 100ohm resistors on the cathodes are one of the reasons the Recto series feels somewhat loose.

Does this work on the triples as well?

 

[Shemham]

Does this work on the triples as well?

On the both 3-channel models, yes it does.

 

[SonVolt]

Some of the dark overtones comes from the Mesa STR440's. I have tried other power tubes and have favored the SED = c= 6L6GC overall but it does add brightness to the amp. I would definitely give a TS in V1 and V2 a try, use the stock Mesa tubes for the remainder. That actually sounds really good. If you want more edge, install a Mullard CV4004 tube in V2, that will make a huge difference on the gain stack. What surprised me was a JAN/GE 5751 in V1 with the CV4004 in V2. Don't let the lower gain of the 5751 tube fool you, especially if it is a NOS tube. To me it was too much gain. I actually like the darker tone of the stock tubes.

V30's will flub out in the larger cabinet. They do not perform well in an open cab either (they do the same thing) However, they perform incredibly well in a standard sized 412 cabinet (the smaller one). Still there is the shift in tone though the V30 when compared to other speakers. Changing speakers may not always produce the results you may thing you will get. Definitely keep other alternatives open before changing speakers.

Blanket, that is how I felt about the Roadster though the V30 cab that I have. My RA100 and Mark IV sound great thought the V30's, the Mark V and Roadster sound like a blanket is on the speakers and pillows stuffed in the cab (yes I tried stuffing pillows in the cab to hear the difference in an attempt to eliminate some drone, actually made it worse since it was due to air movement and the ductwork under the floor, installing the casters was the fix, no pillows.) Actually my V30 cab is not all that bad if I dial in the amp for the cabinet.

Why would Mesa design the recto around the larger cab loaded with V30's if they flubbed out? That doesn't make any sense. The larger cabinets PREVENT flub. They may be boomy yes but not flubby.

 

[knotts]

I play through a Avatar Vintage 4x12 cab. I believe it's closer to standard than over-sized. It has a mix of V30's and G12H 30's. I'm play mostly classic rock, so I tend to keep the gain on the lower side compared to metal.

Interesting note about the casters. My cab has none, and I was toying with the notion of adding them for the obvious reason of portability and not sound. That might be an interesting solution. Any thoughts on adding 3" or 4" casters just to give the speakers extra height to direct the sound towards me better?

I literally have a quartet of EL34's setting next to my amp at our practice space. I'm gonna give them a shot and mess with my OD. I might also bring a few blocks of wood to lift the cab to see if that helps.

 

[firmani99]

Some of the dark overtones comes from the Mesa STR440's. I have tried other power tubes and have favored the SED = c= 6L6GC overall but it does add brightness to the amp. I would definitely give a TS in V1 and V2 a try, use the stock Mesa tubes for the remainder. That actually sounds really good. If you want more edge, install a Mullard CV4004 tube in V2, that will make a huge difference on the gain stack. What surprised me was a JAN/GE 5751 in V1 with the CV4004 in V2. Don't let the lower gain of the 5751 tube fool you, especially if it is a NOS tube. To me it was too much gain. I actually like the darker tone of the stock tubes.

V30's will flub out in the larger cabinet. They do not perform well in an open cab either (they do the same thing) However, they perform incredibly well in a standard sized 412 cabinet (the smaller one). Still there is the shift in tone though the V30 when compared to other speakers. Changing speakers may not always produce the results you may thing you will get. Definitely keep other alternatives open before changing speakers.

Blanket, that is how I felt about the Roadster though the V30 cab that I have. My RA100 and Mark IV sound great thought the V30's, the Mark V and Roadster sound like a blanket is on the speakers and pillows stuffed in the cab (yes I tried stuffing pillows in the cab to hear the difference in an attempt to eliminate some drone, actually made it worse since it was due to air movement and the ductwork under the floor, installing the casters was the fix, no pillows.) Actually my V30 cab is not all that bad if I dial in the amp for the cabinet.

Why would Mesa design the recto around the larger cab loaded with V30's if they flubbed out? That doesn't make any sense. The larger cabinets PREVENT flub. They may be boomy yes but not flubby.

I have to disagree, I have 2 oversized cabs and a peavey cab loaded with mesa v 30's. The oversized cabs do sound boomy but if you push the low end up high on the amp they absolutely do flub out. Much less so in the smaller cab.

 

[siggy14]

Some of the dark overtones comes from the Mesa STR440's. I have tried other power tubes and have favored the SED = c= 6L6GC overall but it does add brightness to the amp. I would definitely give a TS in V1 and V2 a try, use the stock Mesa tubes for the remainder. That actually sounds really good. If you want more edge, install a Mullard CV4004 tube in V2, that will make a huge difference on the gain stack. What surprised me was a JAN/GE 5751 in V1 with the CV4004 in V2. Don't let the lower gain of the 5751 tube fool you, especially if it is a NOS tube. To me it was too much gain. I actually like the darker tone of the stock tubes.

V30's will flub out in the larger cabinet. They do not perform well in an open cab either (they do the same thing) However, they perform incredibly well in a standard sized 412 cabinet (the smaller one). Still there is the shift in tone though the V30 when compared to other speakers. Changing speakers may not always produce the results you may thing you will get. Definitely keep other alternatives open before changing speakers.

Blanket, that is how I felt about the Roadster though the V30 cab that I have. My RA100 and Mark IV sound great thought the V30's, the Mark V and Roadster sound like a blanket is on the speakers and pillows stuffed in the cab (yes I tried stuffing pillows in the cab to hear the difference in an attempt to eliminate some drone, actually made it worse since it was due to air movement and the ductwork under the floor, installing the casters was the fix, no pillows.) Actually my V30 cab is not all that bad if I dial in the amp for the cabinet.

Why would Mesa design the recto around the larger cab loaded with V30's if they flubbed out? That doesn't make any sense. The larger cabinets PREVENT flub. They may be boomy yes but not flubby.

I have to disagree, I have 2 oversized cabs and a peavey cab loaded with mesa v 30's. The oversized cabs do sound boomy but if you push the low end up high on the amp they absolutely do flub out. Much less so in the smaller cab.

Which oversized do you have, the slant or the straight or the straight/slant?

 

[jbird]

I'm sure you've tried hard bypassing your effects loop to remove that blanket, no?

 

[firmani99]

I have the angled and straight

 

[bandit2013]

I wish this were to be true. At least with my cabinet, I could not use it unless all bass and mids were dialed out. All was fine at low volumes but at gig levels, some notes on the lower frets would flub out. This was worse than the typical mudd. Speakers just did not respond well to chording. I got no boom, it was all flub and breakup. I thought it may have been due to the cabinet sitting for nearly 12 years without use (over that time, possibly only 10 hours of use total). Tried for 3 months (in 2012) to like it after getting the Mark V. Changing speakers to something else was the only cure. Also had similar issue with the MC90 in the Mark IV combo (fixed that with a different speaker too at the same time.) I bought the Cab 2 months after I got the Mark IV (2000) since I hoped the 412 would sound better.... (at low volume sounded good, at gig level sounded like crap). The Mark IV just could not deliver the goods like the Mark III combo at gig level. Not super loud or anything.

When I bought an inexpensive traditional sized 412 cab, I installed the very same V30's that came out of the Recto cab. Now they sound great in the smaller envelope. I do not have to cut bass or mids. The Mark IV sounds the best through the smaller 412 with the V30's second to the RA100. However, both Mark V and Roadster have the blanket effect.

 

[siggy14]

I have the angled and straight

Do you notice a difference in sound between the two?

 

[firmani99]

I have the angled and straight

Do you notice a difference in sound between the two?

My first thought would be that the straight is bassier. It could be because the internal volume is slightly larger due to no slant. But I think it has a lot to do with the fact that speakers aren't pointing up at you. They point at your lower body making you hear less of the highs and mids and more of the low end. As low end is more omnidirectional. At a distance the differences seem to disappear which enforces my thought that the differences are more because of the speakers not pointing up at you.