the best dynamic stomps for Roadster

[Metaltastic]

Hey, fair enough, of course go with what works for you, but I know I love the effect my Tube Screamer has on tightening the lows by cutting them (and that is in fact the only reason they tighten, since I set it so the amp saturation doesn't change between toggling it on/off, AKA unity gain), and with it off the flub makes baby jesus cry! And for the record, anyone who uses any variant of Tube Screamer, be it by Maxon or Ibanez, is reaping this benefit too, as they're all virtually the same design.

 

[jdurso]

Well my only experience using just a straight gain boost was a few years ago using an MXR Micro Amp when I wanted to get a volume boost for solos (before I understood the concept of distortion being clipping ), and was very disheartened to just notice everything get noiser and messier (because of more gain meaning more clipping, naturally). But as to the science behind the differences between turning up the gain knob vs. "slamming it" with a boost, I don't know enough to say, so I've posted the question to the author of the TS FAQ on the Sneap forum, so hopefully he'll bestow me with his ever-enlightened response shortly

And it was this thread too that clued me in way back when, the definitive post being:

no, this is not how and why we are using Tube Screamers... it's NOT for boosting the gain, in fact the TS can do it's job with it's gain control turned all the way down... and you should leave your amp gain exactly where you want it to be, don't change it. the TS will simply tighten up the lows and low mids. you can add some gain from it if you want, but i would not reduce the gain on your head... just add TS to taste.... i normally only add gain from the TS when tracking solos, for just a little extra bite.

And you do realize Jame's post you quoted right there is exactly what I'm talking about except using an OD as a clean boost. The only difference is the midhump in the TS that further tightnes by reducing some of the bass. Also keep in mind not every clean boost or OD will play well with a given amp. There is a reason a lot of Recto users tend to gravitate towards the same boosts... most of the boost are NOT in the TS family but instead setup more transparent on the eq side.

Also i find it kind of funny that you claim a clean boost will just add more noise and mud, yet you've only tried one clean boost.... great sample size :wink:

 

[Metaltastic]

Yeah, I threw that anecdote in there as an aside, but my point was that it just made it sound very similar to turning the gain way the hell up, because I still feel the effect is virtually the same (especially because all you're doing when clean boosting the amp is compressing the input tube, V1, and the gain is generated cascadingly among the other 3 preamp tubes). And while he didn't specifically mention it, since James said to leave all settings the same on the amp, I'm pretty certain that means gain as well, thus implying that he too sets his TS for unity gain (and I know for a fact Andy Sneap does, as he has the level on his at 12:00).

Basically, what it boils down to is I feel the vast majority of all the benefit people get from Tube Screamer-type pedals before high-gain amps is filtering out some of the lows (and as I mentioned, I'm one of 'em, since I set mine for unity gain), and you feel a similar tightening can be had simply by hitting the input tube harder, compressing the signal more, and thus tightening it. I really don't see how this could have anywhere near as dramatic an effect on the lows, but it works for you, and my way works for me, so rock on! But FWIW all the respected recording engineers I know of use TS-type pedals in the same way I do! (or rather, I use it the same way they do )

 

[jdurso]

Hey, fair enough, of course go with what works for you, but I know I love the effect my Tube Screamer has on tightening the lows by cutting them (and that is in fact the only reason they tighten, since I set it so the amp saturation doesn't change between toggling it on/off, AKA unity gain), and with it off the flub makes baby jesus cry! And for the record, anyone who uses any variant of Tube Screamer, be it by Maxon or Ibanez, is reaping this benefit too, as they're all virtually the same design.

I'm not debating what you love but your claim that a clean boost or an OD setup as a clean boost does not tighten. Yes your TS will tighten due to the lows being cut but its also due to a hotter signal fed to the preamp.

Try something like an OCD which is relatively even in the mids (in LP mode) and setup with the volume near maxed and no gain (hence setup as a clean boost). While it won't achieve unity gain as it will most definitely add a little more compression and saturation, it will retain the same or near the same eq as would be fed without the boost.

 

[Metaltastic]

Cool, if I get a chance I definitely will!

 

[jdurso]

Cool, if I get a chance I definitely will!

Seriously if you want to give the OCD or BB Preamp a whirl I'm in the next state over from you.

 

[jdurso]

BTW back to the original point of this post... the best dynamic stomps.... OCD or Timmy if your looking for added dynamics.

 

[Rydock]

What exactly is unity gain? How do you set it on a Tube screamer? This is the first time I'm learning this term, so be nice please .

I used to have my bad monkey through my Roadster with my output maxed out and gain off. But these past few days, I'm been experimenting with the gain knob and got some good results. Now I don't know if I like gain off or gain on. I'm in the market for a new OD though to "further my research." Initially I wanted an od808, but I've narrowed down my search to either an od-9 or a digitech hardwire CM-2. I'm on the fence here and don't know what to go with.

 

[Metaltastic]

Well unity gain is basically so the amount of level doesn't change when engaging the tube screamer; the best way to tell is to turn the volume on your guitar up but mute the strings with your left hand, then toggle the TS on/off and listen to hear if the sound gets noticeably louder or softer with it engaged (kinda hard to tell cuz it'll get much more deliciously middy, but you should have a decent idea). For me, it's around 11:30, but I wouldn't expect them all to be exactly the same! (cheap component tolerances and all)

 

[Rydock]

Oh interesting. I'll be playing around with that when people are awake. I guess I wouldn't mind having my volume a little louder than unity just to be on the safe side. It's better than having it softer, right? I've always been running my output almost max, so we'll see how much difference this will be. Also, how high would you normally run your gain? Is it just a taste kinda thing?

No matter how I'm boosting with the bad monkey, I always get a nice tight high gain rhythm tone on my Roadster. My lead tone is pretty decent too, but I'm mainly looking to tighten up my single note leads, that's why I'm looking into a new OD. I found that raising the gain a bit adds a certain growl to my slides, but I still find my tone a bit thin.

 

[YellowJacket]

Oh, now "y'alls" have me wanting to try an OD pedal for leads.

I think jdurso is trying to say that input level to an amp effects tone in a different way than turning up the gain on the amp. Lets look at it this way, an active pickup sounds very different than a passive one. This is because an active pickup has a much higher output and yes, the frequency shape is different. Like my Les Paul sounds chunky but can sound flubby very easily. Duals do have a propensity for getting muddy because they are such a thick sounding amp to begin with. But if we throw an through body neck Ibanez with active pickups into a dual, it will have a much tighter and thicker tone than a Les Paul because the input level is higher. The OD pedal basically does the same thing in the signal chain as popping in an active pickup into a guitar, it increases the signal level and simultaneously shapes the frequency response.

Really, you both are presenting correct facts to your discussion and it seems more like chicken and egg pedantry than a seriously conflicting viewpoint. I think a great way to test the effect of input level on tone is to run the dual, plug the guitar straight in and turn down the volume pot on the guitar while turning up the gain on the amp. You can listen and see if you hear any noticable change in the tone of the amp. Just my two cents.

 

[jdurso]

Oh, now "y'alls" have me wanting to try an OD pedal for leads.

I think jdurso is trying to say that input level to an amp effects tone in a different way than turning up the gain on the amp. Lets look at it this way, an active pickup sounds very different than a passive one. This is because an active pickup has a much higher output and yes, the frequency shape is different. Like my Les Paul sounds chunky but can sound flubby very easily. Duals do have a propensity for getting muddy because they are such a thick sounding amp to begin with. But if we throw an through body neck Ibanez with active pickups into a dual, it will have a much tighter and thicker tone than a Les Paul because the input level is higher. The OD pedal basically does the same thing in the signal chain as popping in an active pickup into a guitar, it increases the signal level and simultaneously shapes the frequency response.

Really, you both are presenting correct facts to your discussion and it seems more like chicken and egg pedantry than a seriously conflicting viewpoint. I think a great way to test the effect of input level on tone is to run the dual, plug the guitar straight in and turn down the volume pot on the guitar while turning up the gain on the amp. You can listen and see if you hear any noticable change in the tone of the amp. Just my two cents.

Exactly my point... thank you yellowjacket for clarifying my point. Really there are so many ways to tighten a Recto with a boost/drive pedal and while each application maybe slightly different, they all work.

 

[Metaltastic]

EMG's definitely don't have a higher output than the average passive designed for modern music dude, that's a common misconception - the internal preamp just compensates for very weak magnets in the pickups, which is why it's not a problem (and is in fact recommended) to have the pickup pretty much as close to the strings as possible without getting in the way. And more importantly, having owned guitars with a variety of passives, I can say that the levels are very similar (and some passives are even hotter, e.g. X2N) when plugging directly into an interface and observing the peaks on the DI's!

EMG's are tighter simply because of that internal buffering (and the frequency response, especially of the 81 - there are definitely flubby active pickups too, e.g. the Duncan Blackout Bridge IMO, at least in comparison to the 81! Here's a thread I made on the Sneap forum with comparison clips. Also, the Blackout Bridge was actually substantially hotter than the 81, but it didn't really help the tightness! )

 

[Metaltastic]

Really, you both are presenting correct facts to your discussion and it seems more like chicken and egg pedantry than a seriously conflicting viewpoint. I think a great way to test the effect of input level on tone is to run the dual, plug the guitar straight in and turn down the volume pot on the guitar while turning up the gain on the amp. You can listen and see if you hear any noticable change in the tone of the amp. Just my two cents.

And also, that wouldn't be a fair test with passive pickups because the pot is a just a variable resistor that sucks tone (spec. highs) the more you turn it down. With actives it's a different story, the signal is pretty much even at all volume pot positions - and because of that, there isn't much of a difference IME!

 

[jdurso]

EMG's definitely don't have a higher output than the average passive designed for modern music dude, that's a common misconception - the internal preamp just compensates for very weak magnets in the pickups, which is why it's not a problem (and is in fact recommended) to have the pickup pretty much as close to the strings as possible without getting in the way. And more importantly, having owned guitars with a variety of passives, I can say that the levels are very similar (and some passives are even hotter, e.g. X2N) when plugging directly into an interface and observing the peaks on the DI's!

EMG's are tighter simply because of that internal buffering (and the frequency response, especially of the 81 - there are definitely flubby active pickups too, e.g. the Duncan Blackout Bridge IMO, at least in comparison to the 81! Here's a thread I made on the Sneap forum with comparison clips. Also, the Blackout Bridge was actually substantially hotter than the 81, but it didn't really help the tightness! )

I believe what yellowjacket was trying to point out is an emg vs a medium output passive. EMGs have over time created a demand for higher output pickups and while now you can find plenty that have output levels equal to or higher than an EMG this wasn't always the case. EMGs also help tighten the signal because they're very mid heavy pickups.

Also keep in mind we all hear "tight" differently and unless you've tested emgs in every type of guitar through every type of amp and cabinet combination, a "to end all" statement that a certain pickup did NOT have any tightening effect is kind of baseless.

 

[Metaltastic]

I believe what yellowjacket was trying to point out is an emg vs a medium output passive. EMGs have over time created a demand for higher output pickups and while now you can find plenty that have output levels equal to or higher than an EMG this wasn't always the case. EMGs also help tighten the signal because they're very mid heavy pickups.

Also keep in mind we all hear "tight" differently and unless you've tested emgs in every type of guitar through every type of amp and cabinet combination, a "to end all" statement that a certain pickup did NOT have any tightening effect is kind of baseless.

My definition of tight = less flubby bass for me, pure and simple, and I feel the best way to achieve that is to thin/cut lows before the amp input, and get them from the amp, and the EMG81 by virtue of its frequency response does this. It's already been well established in this thread that you and I disagree on this philosophy, so I think at this point anyone else can just read over our debate and decide for themselves! However, to reiterate what I posted before, all the respected recording engineers I know of use TS-type pedals!

 

[jdurso]

I believe what yellowjacket was trying to point out is an emg vs a medium output passive. EMGs have over time created a demand for higher output pickups and while now you can find plenty that have output levels equal to or higher than an EMG this wasn't always the case. EMGs also help tighten the signal because they're very mid heavy pickups.

Also keep in mind we all hear "tight" differently and unless you've tested emgs in every type of guitar through every type of amp and cabinet combination, a "to end all" statement that a certain pickup did NOT have any tightening effect is kind of baseless.

My definition of tight = less flubby bass for me, pure and simple, and I feel the best way to achieve that is to thin/cut lows before the amp input, and get them from the amp, and the EMG81 by virtue of its frequency response does this. It's already been well established in this thread that you and I disagree on this philosophy, so I think at this point anyone else can just read over our debate and decide for themselves! However, to reiterate what I posted before, all the respected recording engineers I know of use TS-type pedals!

So your opinions are based around what other people use?? Hmmmm....

Also the BEST way to do anything is going to be different to everyone... for instance you want to get rid of flubby bass? To me, dont bother with pedals, just get the right cab and preamp tubes that suite your ideal tone. That provides you the foundation to add things like boosts/drive and other effects to get you a greater variety but it all starts with a solid foundation. I've come to this way of thinking through experiementation not by reading posts and trusting opinions of the cork sniffers and audiophiles. But thats just me... :wink:

 

[Metaltastic]

No, because as I said, I tried a Tube Screamer, it did exactly what I wanted it to do judging by directly A/B'ing recorded clips with re-amped DI's through multiple amps, and have been happy since.

 

[YellowJacket]

Reply with quote

I believe what yellowjacket was trying to point out is an emg vs a medium output passive. EMGs have over time created a demand for higher output pickups and while now you can find plenty that have output levels equal to or higher than an EMG this wasn't always the case. EMGs also help tighten the signal because they're very mid heavy pickups.

Also keep in mind we all hear "tight" differently and unless you've tested emgs in every type of guitar through every type of amp and cabinet combination, a "to end all" statement that a certain pickup did NOT have any tightening effect is kind of baseless.

My definition of tight = less flubby bass for me, pure and simple, and I feel the best way to achieve that is to thin/cut lows before the amp input, and get them from the amp, and the EMG81 by virtue of its frequency response does this. It's already been well established in this thread that you and I disagree on this philosophy, so I think at this point anyone else can just read over our debate and decide for themselves! However, to reiterate what I posted before, all the respected recording engineers I know of use TS-type pedals!

So your opinions are based around what other people use?? Hmmmm....

Also the BEST way to do anything is going to be different to everyone... for instance you want to get rid of flubby bass? To me, dont bother with pedals, just get the right cab and preamp tubes that suite your ideal tone. That provides you the foundation to add things like boosts/drive and other effects to get you a greater variety but it all starts with a solid foundation. I've come to this way of thinking through experiementation not by reading posts and trusting opinions of the cork sniffers and audiophiles. But thats just me... :wink:

What sort of tubes do you run? I'm curious now. For those of us who like to dial in more gain, it is great to have the bigger standard rectocab than a smaller traditional one so if you commit to this option, you are stuck with something that works but requires tweaking. If I was to follow your philosophy I would sell my Gibson Les Paul and buy a Gibson SG rather than roll back the bass on the amp so it isn't too tubby. Then I would sell my head and buy something like a three channel dual or a road king II. Another solution is of course to swap pickups. I think they put the EQs on an amp or a pedal so that the tone can be tweaked more. Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty puritanical myself and I love amp tone above all else. I really am not a fan of stomp boxes or big effects processing units. I just found it interesting that almost everyone here talks about using an OD pedal to unluck the soloing potential of the Dual.

Metaltastic, you talked about how pots alter tone. I wonder if the pot used to control gain would alter tone as much as the pot used as a volume knob on a guitar. Just a thought.

 

[Metaltastic]

Metaltastic, you talked about how pots alter tone. I wonder if the pot used to control gain would alter tone as much as the pot used as a volume knob on a guitar. Just a thought.

Probably not, since I specified pots with passive electronics (meaning, subtractive only), whereas a gain pot is not