Speaker for a MarkIIA Combo.//Got an EVM 12L

[breogan]

Hi there!

I have a Mark IIA combo that has a broken speaker... wait, BROKEN?!?! Well, It is not the original EVM 12L 8) .

Anyway, the amp used to have the EVM 12L but it was way too heavy so I sold it (blame me for that). Lightness was my point back there so I bought a Celestion Century.

I was not playing in a band any more so I lend the amp to a friend for a few months, he returned it and the speaker had a broken cone. He is a trusted friend and he swears he hasn't used the amp in a improper way. I assume the speaker was defective or the amp has way too much bass for it.

Anyway, TOO MUCH TALKING ALREADY. I would like to buy a replacement. In principle I prefer to buy a speaker that captures the original tone. EVM 12L is a option no matter the weight, but I am open to any recommendation.

So, what's your suggestion for a speaker for a Mark IIA?

 

[Wolfchild]

Eminence Delta Pro 12A is a very good substitute for the EVM (a tech friend of mine reckons it is nearly identical in construction).

I've had good results with the Deltalite, which is the Neo version of the same speaker and will keep the weight of your amp down considerably!

W.

 

[breogan]

The Deltalite looks like a nice alternative! Do you think its quality is comparable with the EVM 12L. I would like to buy something of a high quality.

I think this amp beg for a flat output speaker. With the Celestion is really middy.

 

[Wolfchild]

Well, both speakers were recommended to me by forum members.

Someone mentioned that the 12A was similar to the Black Shadow MS-12 but the weight of the thing put me off.

Emailed Eminence and received this reply this reply from A Lucas:

"A lot of players have taken to our Delta Pro 12A as an EVM12L alternative. It wasn't our intention, it wasn't tweaked for guitar....it's just one of those things that happened and has spread through word of mouth. I'm with you, in that I don't like the weight, so I recently got curious about the Deltalite and I compared them side-by-side. I felt that the Deltalite had a more natural guitar tone. It sounded more open on the highs, retained more clarity and had better note seperation. The Delta Pro definitely had more warmth and more girth on the low end, but the Deltalite also is very warm and has adequate low end. Bottom line, I just felt the Deltalite sounded like a much better "guitar" speaker."

This prompted me to give the Deltalite a try and I have to say I was very impressed. Apart from the obvious weight saving, I felt that the Deltalite was less sterile than the EV in my amp at the time (MKIII Blue Stripe). Also tried it in a Theile Cab from Zilla here in the UK and couldn't believe how much punch and bottom end I got from such a lightweight 1x12!

I'll also add that the Deltalite is even cheaper than the Celestion Century Neo, let alone a new EVM...

Hope this helps,

W.

 

[igfraso]

Being the Mark II-A a dark amplifier, I understand the original speakers were the Eminence MS-12, the Altec 417-8H Series II, the JBL K-l20 and the Electro-Voice EVM12 speakers.

 

[breogan]

Being the Mark II-A a dark amplifier, I understand the original speakers were the Eminence MS-12, the Altec 417-8H Series II, the JBL K-l20 and the Electro-Voice EVM12 speakers.

What do you mean by "original speakers"? I thought the Mark IIA (II-series in general) where shipped with the EVM 12L only. Or is this a list of similar speakers?

BTW. Is there any JBL speaker model that I may look into? This JBL K-l20?

 

[lockbody]

Being the Mark II-A a dark amplifier, I understand the original speakers were the Eminence MS-12, the Altec 417-8H Series II, the JBL K-l20 and the Electro-Voice EVM12 speakers.

What do you mean by "original speakers"? I thought the Mark IIA (II-series in general) where shipped with the EVM 12L only. Or is this a list of similar speakers?

BTW. Is there any JBL speaker model that I may look into? This JBL K-l20?

The MS-12 was the stock speaker, the others were upgrades you could purchase.

 

[breogan]

Ah! I didn't know there were that many speakers to choose from. Were all of them woofers?

I guess the EVM 12L is considered the best.

 

[igfraso]

Yes, that is what I wanted to say.
The Eminence MS-12 was the original speaker and the others 3 were upgrades.

 

[igfraso]

I am copying this from the "Vintage Mark I manual" (actually it was a letter sent to the new owners). The Mark I and the II-A are dark amplifiers so it could be of help.
Just keep in mind that this below is written for the Mark I.

SPEAKERS: The standard 12 inch speaker is either a Vega, G-12 or, with the Hundred Watt option, an Eminence speaker designed especially for us. It features a 2 3/4" voice coil 4" paper dome, and a 125 watt rating. It is capable of crisp tones over a fairly large dynamic range and is reliable under heavy conditions. As options we also offer the Altec 417-8H Series II (list price now $179) for $85 from us when installed in your amplifier. It is the most popular and highest recommended for its fat tone, and outstanding reliability at high volume, and is the continuing choice of Santana. For jazz and country players the brighter, more sensitive response of the JBL K-120 might be preferable as used by Garcia or Carlton; it has a clearer, more present sound and has the most versatile range of volume-tone response. So, in summary: the Altec is best for continuous loud playing but loses presence at soft volumes, the JBL is best for all around playing at all volumes and clean or funky versatility; the standard Eminence works well with 100 watt amps and loud playing but again lacks low volume presence and clarity. To get super performance from a Sixty watt model, we recommend the JBL K-120. Gauss and Electro-Voice EVM speakers also sound great in a Boogie and have a generally tauter, more rigid sound than the others. They also weigh more make access to the Boogie's tubes a little hampered. In the 15" series, we prefer the JBL K-130 as having the best balanced tone at any volume, again clearer and brighter but still very fat. For the sound of raw power, especially where the amp is used for heavy rock lead, we recommend the Altec 15 as being the thickest sounding but lacking in versatility. All of the above are 8 ohm speakers. The amplifier likes any load between 3 and 8 ohms --4 ohms is ideal-- so extensions can be used very successfully with any amp. Generally though, no more than three 8 ohm speakers should be used at once for optimum performance. All 100 watt amplifiers now come with 8 and 4 ohm outputs which allow a wide choice of power levels and speaker matching when used with the 100/60 watt switch. Four-12 Marshall cabinets work well as is, especially in conjunction with the Boogie one 12 or one 15. Otherwise for maximum power, where a Boogie top and a Marshall cabinet is to be used, you can usually rewire the cabinet for lower impedance.

Hope it helps
Daniel

 

[breogan]

Wow, Daniel. That's great info!

Mine is a 60w model. It seems that a JBL K120 could be a nice option for versatility. The altec also looks like nice option too.

 

[lockbody]

This is a great post! Thanks!

I don't think I've ever seen a Boogie with a Vega, G-12, or Gauss speaker in it. I wonder how many (if any) went out the door with one?

I am copying this from the "Vintage Mark I manual" (actually it was a letter sent to the new owners). The Mark I and the II-A are dark amplifiers so it could be of help.
Just keep in mind that this below is written for the Mark I.

SPEAKERS: The standard 12 inch speaker is either a Vega, G-12 or, with the Hundred Watt option, an Eminence speaker designed especially for us. It features a 2 3/4" voice coil 4" paper dome, and a 125 watt rating. It is capable of crisp tones over a fairly large dynamic range and is reliable under heavy conditions. As options we also offer the Altec 417-8H Series II (list price now $179) for $85 from us when installed in your amplifier. It is the most popular and highest recommended for its fat tone, and outstanding reliability at high volume, and is the continuing choice of Santana. For jazz and country players the brighter, more sensitive response of the JBL K-120 might be preferable as used by Garcia or Carlton; it has a clearer, more present sound and has the most versatile range of volume-tone response. So, in summary: the Altec is best for continuous loud playing but loses presence at soft volumes, the JBL is best for all around playing at all volumes and clean or funky versatility; the standard Eminence works well with 100 watt amps and loud playing but again lacks low volume presence and clarity. To get super performance from a Sixty watt model, we recommend the JBL K-120. Gauss and Electro-Voice EVM speakers also sound great in a Boogie and have a generally tauter, more rigid sound than the others. They also weigh more make access to the Boogie's tubes a little hampered. In the 15" series, we prefer the JBL K-130 as having the best balanced tone at any volume, again clearer and brighter but still very fat. For the sound of raw power, especially where the amp is used for heavy rock lead, we recommend the Altec 15 as being the thickest sounding but lacking in versatility. All of the above are 8 ohm speakers. The amplifier likes any load between 3 and 8 ohms --4 ohms is ideal-- so extensions can be used very successfully with any amp. Generally though, no more than three 8 ohm speakers should be used at once for optimum performance. All 100 watt amplifiers now come with 8 and 4 ohm outputs which allow a wide choice of power levels and speaker matching when used with the 100/60 watt switch. Four-12 Marshall cabinets work well as is, especially in conjunction with the Boogie one 12 or one 15. Otherwise for maximum power, where a Boogie top and a Marshall cabinet is to be used, you can usually rewire the cabinet for lower impedance.

Hope it helps
Daniel

 

[igfraso]

I guess the Vega is the Cerwin-Vega and the G-12 is the Gauss.
I never knew any of those speakers even existed. :lol:
But by the time the II-A was launched, the options were only the Eminence (it is 150 watt, actually), the Altec, the JBL and the EVM.

Now, regarding the JBL K series:

The K Series technology
Each loudspeaker in the K Series is designed to traditional JBL quality standards. High strength Alnico V magnets in massive cast iron magnetic structures conduct energy directly to large, handwound voice coils made of ribbon wire.

K120 12-inch speaker
Its full-range reproduction (50 Hz~6,000 Hz) and 100 watt continuous sine wave rating offer performance that will satisfy the most critical musician. The K120 directly replaces conventional 12-inch musical instrument loudspeakers used in guitar amps, organs, electric pianos and similar applications (used by Jerry Garcia and Larry Carlton).
The K120 has the same huge magnet structure and 4-inch voice coil as the 15-inch K130. That’s why midrange and highs are bright, bass is smooth, and the eficiency’s so outstanding (101 db SPL).

Regards

 

[breogan]

Daniel, thanks again for the info. Great help here!

I know quite a bit about guitar speakers, but know nothing about this "uncolored" side of the family.

So, I have spoted a cheap JBL K120. Have you tried this speaker? Is it too harsh with distortion?

 

[igfraso]

The JBL K120 is a little bit harsh with the lead channel but it sounds really very nice with the clean channel (Jerry Garcia). With the K120 (Alnico speaker), for distortion, you can either use a Tubescreamer on the clean channel or use the clean channel with higher gain for break up and clean it up lowering the guitar volume when you want to play rhythm guitar.
Think of the MarkIIA clean channel as a sort of Tweed Bassman.

Alternatively, you can use 5881 instead of 440 and you will mellow it down a little bit.

The best thing, in my opinion, is to get a MkIIA head and experiment with as many speakers and cabinets you want. At the time, most of the Boogies were combos so the II-A heads are very hard to find.
I have a 60/100, GEQ, reverb with export transformer.

 

[breogan]

I do not like Jerry Garcia tone that much, and I've missed the JBL K120 anyway. :lol:

This amp truly has a huge amount of bass. I just tested it with a Marshall 1036 with 2xG12H and they were in limit of low frequency reproduction. They give the impresion that, if I push the volume, they may blow too. And this amp has a tons of volume...

So, It seems that I may need to look for a EVM 12L (probably an original one) or to go for a substitute like the Delta Pro or the Deltalite. If not I am afraid to break another speaker.

 

[igfraso]

Yes! It is a refinement of the Tweed Bassman.

 

[breogan]

Yes! It is a refinement of the Tweed Bassman.

Really? I always thought the mark IIA was a refinement of the blackface design.

May be then a Jensen speaker will suit the amp. A trusted vendor offered me C12k but I rejected it.cause i thought I wouldn't be appropriate for this amp.

 

[dodger916]

Jensens will work well, but I'm fond of the MS-12. These have a sweet flavor all their own and really compliment Mark IIs, especially when coupled with an EVM 12-L. Less "sterile" than the 12-L, it adds just a touch of midrange tickle or blur that fills out the 12-L nicely. The best of both worlds, IMO.

 

[breogan]

Ok, I have discovered that the Celestion Century had a defect from factory. Nothing to do with the bass output from the amp. Still the bass response is tremendous and a speaker that handles it is needed.

Anyway, when I find a suitable substitute I will post it here. I am adding even more noise including the Celestion G12B-150 as a candidate.

I have searched for sound samples of the JBL and sound too shrill with distortion.

Also i have try to look for the Altec but there aren't many for sell. And they are expensive!

The EVM 12L seems the most respected and cheaper one.

No eBay options for the MS12, yet.

Quest continues...