Should Mesa Boogie reissue the Mark IIC+ ?

[funk49]

If I wanted a C+ at this point (I've had my DRG for 33 years), I'd save my money and buy a Mark III Red Stripe and send it back to MB to tweak it. My old roommate had a red stripe...that amp sounded great and got about 90% of the way there.

 

[FedWar]

About the mark I reissue:

They did it in the 90s when the mark iv was the current design (pulls and switches).

Then they switched to mark V.

And owners of a original mark I will tell you that it will sound dfferent from the original one.



Regarding the mark iii red stripe and iic+.

I have two iic+ and a red stripe and I can tell that the difference you

I have it and the difference is big. Red stripe is great but lacks the 3d sound that the iic+ has. The problem is that you can only hear this when you try one. You have to feel it in the room.

That's why you become a iic+ believer only after you try it.

If you want to have that iic+ sound (volume1 pulled, treble shift, lead bright pulled) the jp2c and the mark vii have it in spades.

Check comparison between iic+ and these amps: they are pretty spot on from a audio point of view.

Feel in the room? IIC+ still is another thing, that's why they are selling for that kind of money

 

[woodbutcher65]

Oh, I know quite well what I'm talking about. I've owned Mesa amps since the mid 80s and I've been an electronics technician my entire life. I know what's what.

Yes, transformers make a large difference to the tonal options available. If there's a black art in tube amp design, it's in the transformers. The rest is considerably more straightforward. Even picking capacitors for tonal attributes isn't difficult, it just takes an effort to try various types out and see how they change the sound. And they will, depending on construction, not for any magical reason, but because there are other parameters in play other than pure capacitance alone, and the way they are made affects those other parameters.

Transformers are not an insurmountable obstacle. Neither is any other component of a IIC+. If Mesa were to commit to doing a run of reissue IIC+ amps, they COULD do it. It'd take time and money and deals made to reintroduce some parts back into production, but there are no show stoppers.

 

[user 41014]

Yes of course but it's not that simple when thinking original components etc. Though it surely would get close to that sound but not 100% territory imo but this is all speculations. You simply can't find those original parts anymore which made that IIC+ sound in the 80´s
It's time to move on I guess..

I'm not taking aim at you but I disagree completely. Your peace and out makes this statement a hit and run.

I'm not an expert, I don't have 300 years experience with amps and electronics and have only had the C and C+ I currently have. I do have 14 pre-90's Marks and have owned more but there are people on this board that have gone through C+'s like sneakers. Has anyone ever said "this amp sounds exactly like the X amp I used to have?" I haven't read it anywhere.

When you speak of 100% territory which one of the original 2000 amps are you calling 100% while the other 1999 are "close to that sound"? No offense but this seems lost on your statement. Would a re-issue get 100%? No, just like the originals didn't. So what is the point?

Blah blah iron. It's huge but it's not like Schumacher is the only company capable of professional standards. Finally, getting the sound is not the same as the feel under your fingers.

 

[Nikevist1]

I'm not taking aim at you but I disagree completely. Your peace and out makes this statement a hit and run.

I'm not an expert, I don't have 300 years experience with amps and electronics and have only had the C and C+ I currently have. I do have 14 pre-90's Marks and have owned more but there are people on this board that have gone through C+'s like sneakers. Has anyone ever said "this amp sounds exactly like the X amp I used to have?" I haven't read it anywhere.

When you speak of 100% territory which one of the original 2000 amps are you calling 100% while the other 1999 are "close to that sound"? No offense but this seems lost on your statement. Would a re-issue get 100%? No, just like the originals didn't. So what is the point?

Blah blah iron. It's huge but it's not like Schumacher is the only company capable of professional standards. Finally, getting the sound is not the same as the feel under your fingers.

My reply to you: PLEASE BE QUIET if you don't know what you are talking about. Btw. do you own IIC+, have you compared these amps between modern ones? My reply is going to be short because I don´t want to waste more time regarding this. I know your answer already and sad to say but I don't trust you and your statements, not one bit! Sad But True! Is that a song by Metallica btw..?

 

[pmac11]

My reply to you: PLEASE BE QUIET if you don't know what you are talking about. Btw. do you own IIC+, have you compared these amps between modern ones? My reply is going to be short because I don´t want to waste more time regarding this. I know your answer already and sad to say but I don't trust you and your statements, not one bit! Sad But True! Is that a song by Metallica btw..?

You don't argue any of his points, you just tell him to shut up because you somehow know better. Now that's a hit and run. Play nice or play somewhere else, OK? No one's bowing down to your authority here.

 

[woodbutcher65]

I guess "I'm out" only means "Until I see another comment I disagree with and can't let slide"...but without presenting any EVIDENCE for the basis of the disagreement.

There are rules to a debate. One of which is to DEBATE, to present evidence, even personal accountings of your point of view, to the opposition. Just trying to slap down the opposition by sheer force of willpower and choice words works NOWHERE for ANYBODY.

 

[user 41014]

PLEASE BE QUIET

Lmao!

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=sm...i=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxsEiYxvD3o
I'm still not trying to take aim at you since you are doing a way better job than I could. I would use an exclamation point if you're going to scream.

If you actually bothered to read instead of fume, yes I own a IIC+ and I don't think that makes me a better person in any way.

To be sacrilegious on a site like this I wouldn't know the Metallica song cuz I don't like them. I saw them in a po-dunk town, Elmira, NY I think at a county fair in the 90's. My gf wanted to see them and it was another chance for me to see Ted Nugent and Aerosmith. Toys in the Attic is something that is just more germane to who I am.

 

[Ran7Bari]

Oh, I know quite well what I'm talking about. I've owned Mesa amps since the mid 80s and I've been an electronics technician my entire life. I know what's what.

Yes, transformers make a large difference to the tonal options available. If there's a black art in tube amp design, it's in the transformers. The rest is considerably more straightforward. Even picking capacitors for tonal attributes isn't difficult, it just takes an effort to try various types out and see how they change the sound. And they will, depending on construction, not for any magical reason, but because there are other parameters in play other than pure capacitance alone, and the way they are made affects those other parameters.

Transformers are not an insurmountable obstacle. Neither is any other component of a IIC+. If Mesa were to commit to doing a run of reissue IIC+ amps, they COULD do it. It'd take time and money and deals made to reintroduce some parts back into production, but there are no show stoppers.

Why didn’t they make one channel of the JP-2C into a good IIC+ reissue? Isn’t that what it was supposed to have?

 

[RicherHertz]

A reissue would be awesome. I wouldn’t put it past Gibson to push Mesa into this. A quality reissue is possible given todays parts.

As far as it being assembled and all components being 100% authentic to the originals, I don’t see that happening. Manufacturing costs would be too expensive.

A lot of the magic in the IIC+ has to do with the component layout and how they interact with each other. You’d also have to take into account the amp has multiple boards and to be 100% accurate you’re talking populating & wiring them by hand.

As for the transformers, I wouldn’t put too much black magic into them. There are quality manufacturers that can come close enough to replicating the OEM ones. But I don’t see Mesa loading a reissue with 105pts.

There’s a reason why that transformer had a short run. It was designed around the Sylvania/Mesa STR-415’s, which sadly hasn’t existed for quite some time. As for most new production tubes, they can’t handle the stress a 105pt would put on them.

 

[woodbutcher65]

Granted, the reissue would be expensive....but people would pay. Do a limited run of 500 of them, priced at 5000 dollars each, they'll sell every last one of them and probably have deposits on all of them by the end of the first week after opening the order book.

As for tubes, I'm seriously hoping that Mesa has been forward thinking and has been having in-depth talks with Western Electric, which announced that it would be expanding into consumer and pro audio vacuum tube type production last year. They will be making a 6L6 type,
and other types guitar amp owners need. Hopefully their 6L6 will be a faithful clone of the Sylvania 6L6GC/STR 387/415 pattern with equal performance.

 

[domct203]

I'm done here. People say whatever but they don't have experience. Some have but I can clearly say you don't. I have experience, I can tell you that!
So in this case I'm out. All Mesa's amps sounds great. Buy what you find the best on your purpose.
Peace and out!

Wow! Sorry to see you meltdown over some differences of opinion. Chill man. Just because people don’t agree with your opinion doesn’t mean they are trying to argue with you.

Yes, I agree that some amps have that special ‘mojo’, but it’s really only noticed by a small % of players. Most guys I know from our local scene could care less what transformers are in there amps, let alone the vintage of their capacitors.

Mesa is about moving forward, and I think the MKI reissue was more of a sentimental action to celebrate their beginnings.

Dom

 

[Nikevist1]

You are right guys, my apologies regarding my previous messages. It went a little overboard ranting. It's good to admit when too much is too much and I went too far!
Now I'm chill and let's continue. This is great and also important topic for sure!
Thanks!

 

[RicherHertz]

Granted, the reissue would be expensive....but people would pay. Do a limited run of 500 of them, priced at 5000 dollars each, they'll sell every last one of them and probably have deposits on all of them by the end of the first week after opening the order book.

As for tubes, I'm seriously hoping that Mesa has been forward thinking and has been having in-depth talks with Western Electric, which announced that it would be expanding into consumer and pro audio vacuum tube type production last year. They will be making a 6L6 type,
and other types guitar amp owners need. Hopefully their 6L6 will be a faithful clone of the Sylvania 6L6GC/STR 387/415 pattern with equal performance.

@woodbutcher65 from your lips to God’s ears!

 

[VisaL]

Granted, the reissue would be expensive....but people would pay. Do a limited run of 500 of them, priced at 5000 dollars each, they'll sell every last one of them and probably have deposits on all of them by the end of the first week after opening the order book.

That is most likely true. But, my gut feeling is that profit margin is so much higher in production model (MK7) that financially this does not make sense. You know, instead of churning out Mark7s, they would allocate the resources in building MK2C+ reissues. Because of the agricultural construction of 80s boogies, they maybe would build 1000 Mk7s in same time as they would build 500 reissues.

I think right now Mesa cannot produce enough amps to meet the demand and I base this on the fact that amps are not available in EU. So the alternative cost is too much to make reissuing appealing. Now, if Mesa had excess manufacturing capacity and this would be direct sale without retailer's cut, maybe this could be an option instead of laying of people.

 

[woodbutcher65]

Mesa has always operated on the principle that it is better to have a backlog of orders than surplus production capacity lying idle, which has a fixed cost to it. Randall Smith has run a very tight ship at Mesa and this is why Mesa has never had to go through a bankruptcy in its 50 year history, which is something you can't say for Gibson, Fender, or most other big names in the music industry.

There have been times when Mesa barely had enough orders to keep the doors open, but since they have stayed as small as is practical, they survived those lean times. Idle production capacity is an unprofitable expense.

 

[Appleridge]

This was entertaining to read! Has anyone considered the obvious choice?? A mark v reissue with the IIC+ reissue on the back of the amp?? A two sided amp if you will.

In all seriousness, I think a reissue of this amp would be great to see, but regardless of how close they got it, it would ultimately get torn apart. It would prob retail for 5k or more. People would relentlessly compare it to the originals, and the consensus would be that it doesn’t compare and isn’t worth the price tag.

 

[woodbutcher65]

Considering how well Marshall's "reissues" of the 1959 Superlead/Plexi have done for Marshall, I don't think there would be any problem with a serious attempt at a IIC+ reissue doing well and being very satisfying to its buyers.

Marshall's closest attempts at Plexi reissues are well regarded and sought after...but they're not very close to authenticity.
Mesa would get closer to a highly authentic reissue without even TRYING.

In terms of production "issues", it would appear to me that the original Mesa style of applying the components on the trace side of the board would mean they can't use machine soldering systems. Everything would have to be hand soldered. But that would not be a deal breaker, as it probably adds a single hour to production time. All the rest of the amp still has to be wired together and they don't have machines to do that, not for any model. Yes, some models use quick connectors and cables. But for the relatively small number required for a Mark II of any version, it would be just as easy to hand wire them the old way. The cost of re-engineering them to use connectorized cables would probably not be worth the savings of labor.

 

[skelt101]

I would like to see a MkIIC+ reissue just as much as the next person. However, for me it would have to come in with a price below the MkVII. It seems pre-determined that, no matter what Mesa/Boogie could theoretically do, the original would sound "better" than a reissue. (I don't necessarily share this view...) If that were the case, why would anyone pay more for an amp with less features and a sound/feel that comes "close" when they could get a MkVII or JP2C with more features that would sound/feel "close" as well? That just doesn't make sense to me... Price it "right", i.e. less than a MkVII, and then you'd be talking!

 

[mark1406]

Considering how well Marshall's "reissues" of the 1959 Superlead/Plexi have done for Marshall, I don't think there would be any problem with a serious attempt at a IIC+ reissue doing well and being very satisfying to its buyers.

Marshall's closest attempts at Plexi reissues are well regarded and sought after...but they're not very close to authenticity.
Mesa would get closer to a highly authentic reissue without even TRYING.

In terms of production "issues", it would appear to me that the original Mesa style of applying the components on the trace side of the board would mean they can't use machine soldering systems. Everything would have to be hand soldered. But that would not be a deal breaker, as it probably adds a single hour to production time. All the rest of the amp still has to be wired together and they don't have machines to do that, not for any model. Yes, some models use quick connectors and cables. But for the relatively small number required for a Mark II of any version, it would be just as easy to hand wire them the old way. The cost of re-engineering them to use connectorized cables would probably not be worth the savings of labor.

You would have the boards assembled in Asia where costs are lower. Many of the components are made in Asia so lead time should be good.

The other option is to build a kit or get someone like DH Gate to build one.

DH Gate

Regards

Mark