Rock tone from recto?

[pboogie]

So I'm jamming with my boys last week. We're in our mid 40's so we play stuff like Metallica, Megadeath, Motorhead, Maiden, Sabbath and so on. My dual recto sounds awsome playing that stuff. We were playing some old AC/DC and Nugent and my guys were telling me I need more of a "rock tone" and a little less metal sounding. Dare I say, *gasp* more Marshall sounding? Me? I'm all metal so I like my sound the way it is. :twisted: And so do they, unless we're playing AC/DC or Nugent.
I have JJ6V6's loaded in the recto right now. And I play through a Marshall 4X12.
Thanks fellow Rectifamily members.

 

[davidfloyd]

I can relate to this as I like both tones and all of those music styles as well. But basically they're asking you to either bump up your mids, or bring down the bass and treble frequencies (same effect - different way of doing it) and use a little less gain. I find on my 4-channel Roadster, I have channel 3 set as my "classic hard rock sound" and I use the "Raw" mode switch which is the least gainy of the three modes. It takes off some of the buzz and with the mids cranked, gets you into Marshall-like territory.

Now, interestingly enough, you've got a Marshall cab which I suspect is loaded with G12T-75s - a great speaker, but definitely more mid-scooped than the Mesa which normally uses a Vintage 30.

Not sure of your pickup and guitar, but if it's a higher output wind like a hotter DiMarzio, then you'll want to probably cut quite a bit of your lows on the amp as well - the high output pickups can bring on quite a bit of low end.

Playing with lots of mids and less gain definitely takes some getting used to - but that's what your guys are asking for. Whether or not you do that is up to you of course. Good luck!

 

[Moby1]

I know where your coming from, play similar stuff with my band.

Generally my Marshall does the job too a tea but when I fancy using my recto I dial it in as follows:

Channel 2 vintage, diode

Gain 11 o'clock
Treble 1 o'clock
Middle 2 o'clock
Bass 9 o'clock
Pres 8 o'clock
Just have to go with your ears but hope this gives you something to try.

 

[Addictedtokaos]

I think peaking your mids vs scooping them will help but I think its more the feel and not the tone they are looking for.

Back off the gain and use your CH master to give you more of an overdrive (AC/DC) tone.

 

[Blaklynx]

So I'm jamming with my boys last week. We're in our mid 40's so we play stuff like Metallica, Megadeath, Motorhead, Maiden, Sabbath and so on. My dual recto sounds awsome playing that stuff. We were playing some old AC/DC and Nugent and my guys were telling me I need more of a "rock tone" and a little less metal sounding. Dare I say, *gasp* more Marshall sounding? Me? I'm all metal so I like my sound the way it is. :twisted: And so do they, unless we're playing AC/DC or Nugent.
I have JJ6V6's loaded in the recto right now. And I play through a Marshall 4X12.
Thanks fellow Rectifamily members.

You could try ch 1 in Pushed mode. Turn gain up to taste or push with a pedal. I find this mode to have some good rock tones, great for rhythm stuff. EQ appropriately.

Also, ch 2 Raw mode is pretty good because it's lower gain. If it's still too high gain, turn the guitar volume down a little. I think an EQ in the loop will do wonders as this mode is a little dark; adjust the mids and higher end on the EQ. Also adjust the mid dial on the amp and turn the bass down; with the treble dial you could try to turn it down a little to reduce the fizziness a little more and as mentioned, with the EQ pedal in the loop turn the high end up a little to compensate (and no, it's not, "...but isn't that the same thing?")

I feel the trick is less gain, less bass, higher mids, maybe a touch of presence for a little sparkle. ACDC's tone is very clear, not too bitey and well rounded overall. Back in Black is a classic for a great rock tone. You may have to turn the tone down a little on your guitar if your tone comes through a little harsh..... seems to be a 'lost art', the guitar's tone control.

Let us know how you go.

 

[BostonRedSox]

Don't just peak your mids though, without changing around your other settings too. I find on my Roadster that I can get a great Marshall like tone on the Raw setting, with the Mids set high, the treble high, the bass just before noon, and the presence nearly off. Then I just set the gain to taste.

If you had the Roadster, you'd have two possibilities -- the way discussed above, or by using the Brit mode on Channel 2, and boosted with an OCD.

Oh, and I think if you are playing loud, with your amp pushing your speakers, that is going to hurt you as well. As mentioned by a different member, your speakers are supposed to cut the mids. They are great on Marshall amps because they give them better balance. Mesa's sounds great with a high midrange speaker (V-30s) because they push the midrange.

Good luck!

 

[YellowJacket]

How about trying a pair of EL-34 tubes. Run either the outside or the inside sockets and from 4 ohm output on the head for an 8 ohm cab / 8 ohm output to 16 ohm cab.

Oh, another fantastic way to switch tones is to switch GUITARS. If you can get a Les Paul/SG (or copy) with Seymour Duncan Alnico II Pro pickups or the corresponding vintage style Alnico II magnet humbuckers form any reputable pickup winder you'll be able to get that more vintage rock vibe by putting down one guitar and picking up another. You'll get an instant gain cut and mid boost. If you equip your axe with paper in oil caps and 50s style wiring, you can cut the volume on the guitar to move into more vintage crunch tones as well.
When you need ::METAL:: you can always reach back over to the JACKSON with Dimebag Darryl Sig pickups for :INSTANTMETAL:.

 

[BostonRedSox]

Actually, I think with a Mesa if you incorporate some of the earlier mentioned settings with any American series Telecaster, you should have a pretty good rock tone. The single coils, while bright and noisy, cut through like no other. I think a lot of what your bandmates are saying has to do with Mesa's tone in general. These are really modern amps, and their myriad of different modes can be a bit confusing. They can cop some tones that sound like other amps/genres/periods of music, but they are mainly newer styled amps -- in that their midrange is a bit lower. Marshalls and Vox amps are totally the opposite.

Good luck. You should be fine with the settings suggestions. I wouldn't think it would be that necessary for you to go all out to cop one tonal quality that isn't your main focus to begin with.

 

[BostonRedSox]

By the way, EL34s don't really change things that much. I know they were suggested, but I don't want you to waste any money unnecessarily. They will definitely make you distortion and heavier gain tones smoother, but don't expect it to suddenly sound like a British amp -- Mesa's just aren't naturally voiced that way. You have to use very unconventional settings to get you in the ballpark.

The difference in tubes is very subtle. At the end of the day, your Recto is exactly that -- a Recto.

 

[YellowJacket]

Tubes are definitely subtle. Changing speakers gives a far more drastic effect but probably the biggest I have heard is swapping guitars. From my Les Paul to my buddy's Jackson was instant Rock to Metal transformation all without altering the settings.

 

[mikey383]

Learn to use the volume control on your guitar. It will do wonders

 

[Blaklynx]

Another suggestion (and I guess a little insight into what I think):

Dial in your amp while you are listening to a rock album, say ACDC (or what ever), at the same time. Have that rock tone/crunch rhythm pumping through your hifi while you dial in. I feel that many try to dial in their amp by 'hearing memory'. It doesn't work too well because what you 'hear in your head' is almost always different to what you actually hear then and there. It's the subtle sounds/nuances of the tone that you want to capture as close as possible, which can make the biggest difference. I've run back and forth from hifi to amp as these two were in seperate rooms. What you think is close tonally or gain-wise is sometimes reasonably far off.

Speaking of gain, you'd be well surprised how little you may need. I think we tend to like that chugga-chugga-palm mute rhythms, a la Iron Maiden, and when we turn the gain down it seems that the amp is dead and you can't play. Not so. The style of playing ACDC type rhythm vs Iron Maiden is so different that we need to appreciate and understand the styles. If you want the amp to go from ACDC to Iron Maiden in a split second, you'd need an OD pedal in front and maybe an EQ pedal to change the tone; obviously you can't change the amp settings then and there while playing. For solos, you'd need an OD pedal simply for more gain/sustain, if the solo requires it, especially if your amp is in 'classic rock' settings.

The amp is versatile enough to do many styles..... We get caught up in the high gain palm mute stuff because we believe that's what a recto can only do, plus we have probably played the high gain stuff for a very long time.... so our ears and mind and playing is 'brain washed' into only hearing that sound.... namely high gain.... so low gain tones sound a little odd when you have to play for 3.5 minutes, LOL.

Best suggestion? Play low gain rhythm progressions (classic rock) for a few days and forget the high gain stuff completely. You'll have a different appreciation of this amp as you dial it in.

I may well be incorrect with what I've written but I'd like to hear from others what they think. It's a great topic to discuss as many think the Recto is a 'metal amp' only.

Rock on and keep us posted in your findings.

 

[Blaklynx]

Before I forget....LOL....

If you want to smooth out the recto tone/gain, which is famous for the fizzy/buzzy stuff, use an OD pedal in front. I'll try to explain as best I can....

Many use an OD pedal with the volume maxed, tone around 10-1 oclock and gain 0. This is great if you want the 'recto sound'. To smooth it out and this is based on my findings, I use a MI Audio Blues Boy Pro pedal and an EQ pedal after it. It's a great pedal, well made and I think better than the TS9 pedal.

There is a direct relationship between the amps gain and the pedals volume and gain. I'll leave the EQ out for now. Lets' start with some 'assumed' settings so we can 'see' what's going on. I won't talk about the pedal's tone control for ease of understanding. So.......

If the amps gain is at 12oclock and the pedal is set at Vol=max, gain=0, you'll get the classic Recto sound; fizzy/buzzy/full on. To smooth it out, turn amp gain down to say 10oclock, the pedal Vol down, to say 10oclock and pedal Gain up to 12oclock. This should immediately smooth out the tone. If it still sounds Recto-ish, turn the pedal Vol down further or the amps gain down. If there's too much overall gain, turn the pedal Gain down a little.

What you don't want is the gain from the amp overtaking the gain (not volume) from the pedal. In this particular case with the pedal gain up, the Recto sound from the amp is brought about two ways: the amps gain dial and the pedals Volume dial. If you turn up the pedal Vol higher, you'll push the front end too much and you'll start to hear the Recto sound. If you turn the amps gain up, you'll start to hear the Recto sound.

There is a balance between the three dials. Basically:
1. Set pedal gain say to 12 oclock.
2. Set amp gain say to 10 oclock.
3. Set pedal volume say to 10 oclock. Adjust to push or 'pull back' the front end. This push and pull will smooth out or increase the Recto sound.

If you feel that more gain is required, turn up the pedals gain. If you want a balance between the recto sound and a smoother sound, use the amps gain or the pedals volume.

Now, the amp may sound a little wishy-washy, a little flat or not quite right. This is where the EQ pedal comes in and the tone control on the pedal. I find that a tone control isn't quite great on most pedals (the MI pedal is good, though). They make an amp sound flat or dull. You really want more adjustment on the bottom and top end. On the MI pedal, I have it set somewhere around 12oclock give or take. Now the Eq pedal is where it's at, setup after the OD pedal. I boost the bottom end and top end a little. One or two sliders at each end by a couple of dB's (depends on amp settings). This makes the amp more alive and fills out the tone overall. Which EQ sliders you adjust depends on your setup/equipment.

Obviously, everyone's gear/setup and so on is different, so what may be OK for me, may not be right for you. All I can say is experiment with an OD pedal and EQ up front (I also have an EQ in the loop). Go to a shop and try it out and play for a while. You may find it's not for you. I don't suggest that my way is the best way or the right way or whether it will work for you. It's just another idea in the search for 'tone'.

OK..... my fingers and head a getting sore.....LOL.

 

[Chris McKinley]

Some things I posted a while back relating exactly to this topic:

http://www.forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=38168&hilit=+Marshall

http://www.forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5271&hilit=+Marshall

 

[Blaklynx]

Some things I posted a while back relating exactly to this topic:

http://www.forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=38168&hilit=+Marshall

http://www.forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5271&hilit=+Marshall

Just read both posts. Agree entirely with your findings. That's what I discovered, too, when I got my amp about a year and a half ago.

The clean pushed mode is killer when pushed with OD pedals. At one stage I used two MI Audio pedals cascading the pedals thus: guitar>Crunch Box>Tube Zone>amp. I didn't expect anything fantastic but I kid you not, totally blew me away. Need to re-visit and with an EQ pedal enganged.... it's been several months.... :shock:

Glad you brought this up.

 

[BostonRedSox]

Also, at least it works with the Roadster, if you kill the presence completely you will lose a lot of the perceived Recto "fizz."

Be aware that with some albums, merely listening to a song and trying to match its tones will not yield good results. Albums are produced and layered with different guitars, amps, and effects, so much so that it can be tough to come close to resembling a specific sound without employing some effects of your own. I used to try to achieve this, but I've found that my success rate is better when I use my G-System and some of its effects lightly (compression, chorus, delay, etc).

 

[YellowJacket]

This thread is proof that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
I personally dislike pedals so a second axe would be the best option for me even with the added cost. I really need to get myself a Strat one of these days . . .

Learn to use the volume control on your guitar. It will do wonders

I discovered this hot tip this summer. I changed the pickups, electronics, and wiring on my Les Paul which has allowed me to really exploit all the tones present in my guitar/amp.

When using the volume knob while playing with gain, I can go from a light sparkle to a phat crunch and then a searing saturated lead on the SAME CHANNEL. The awesome thing about lowering the volume is that it drives the preamp less hard which really kills fizz and gives an awesome and much more vintage style crunch. It also gives a thick and elastic feeling to riffing. The rig feels FAR less stiff this way.

The tone also really shapes how the guitar sounds. Even with the CTS 500K pots and aggressive 50s style wiring, you can roll down the tone to get buttery sounds as well as cranking it to get the ballsy chunk and thwack out of the guitar.

This being said, don't rule out playing style. It is just yet another dimension to tone. I am shocked at how many tones I can get out of my two channels and one guitar now.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Turn the gain down and the volume up.

Also, EL34s.

 

[pboogie]

Thank you all for your input. Very educational. So I just purchased a Keeley modded Boss DS-1 Ultra Mod pedal.
I put that in front of the amp. Went to raw on the green channel and I think I'm much closer than I was before to that "sound". It also made the other channels sound nice and crisp. I even removed my MWR 10 band eq because I didn't think it was needed anymore. I still favor my metal sound but the guys in the band were digging the new"rock" sound my recto was blasting out for those older songs.

 

[cradlefish]

Turn the gain down and the volume up.

Also, EL34s.

I agree with turning the down the gain and get some El34's. Yes it does sound smoother and breakup is quicker but it also has more mids than the 6l6. Also as the others have said to turn down the bass. Of course you'll have to tinker around more or less the presence and treble since they work interactively together. I usually turn it down. For the mids???? I max mine out especially playing live. It cuts through the mix better along with El34's and a speaker like the V30 helps as well. A cheap way to do it it get an EQ pedal like Boss GE7 and bump the mids through your loop.