Roadster switching latency and loud pops addressed by Mesa?

[blackoutshred]

One quick question guys!

what the heck is this Roadster switching lag/latency and loud pops thing? I mean, I do know what is it, but, is this issue addressed? could be a deal breaker for me (specially that latency thing cause the pops I already know how to "fix them", cycle through every channel before turning stand-by off)

I'm about to buy one but with this issues don't know, came from a JVM that give me lots of headaches, last thing I want to do is buying another problem.

Read posts from 2009 or something that freak me up, guess a company like MESA would fix this 5 years later with new amp versions or not?

 

[bandit2013]

I have a new Roadster. The lag issue is related to the reverb. The signal is present immediately, however the reverb signal is attenuated and faded into the signal path which can be annoying. The Mark V does this as well, but I believe the Roadster seems to take longer. The pop issue, is only present after turning the amp on. I have not tried cycling channels before taking out of standby, however the best trick is to turn on the tuner/mute switch on the footswitch before taking the amp out of standby. No pop when channel switching or when you take the amp out of standby, release the mute and you are ready to go.

 

[blackoutshred]

hmm that's not good right? but... why did Mesa have such a great reputation on "quality" if this problems are still present, is a design problem! (and they dont really fix them)

Maybe those problems of lag and pop are the usual ones (in MESA owners this seems to be so normal that they don't really feel it like the real problem that it is) but they make the amp sorta of unusable in differents types of applications, "profesional uses". If I paid that kind of cash I expect nothing but excellence.

The thing is that they (Roadster and Mark V) sound so fu#@ing great, DAMN!!!

 

[bandit2013]

The pop issue is no big deal. Only occurs at first power up. I do not hear it during channel switching after the amp has warmed up. The lag is annoying. Sounds more like you got knocked out and finally you hear a rush of reverberating tone washing in. With the Roader or Mark V, it seems to be present when switching from a high gain channel to a clean channel. I would rather have a tail end in the reverb than quick fade and slow roll in. The Mark V is much quicker in response than the Roadster. Makes me want to get the schematic (and hope all is included) to reduce the time delay to a fraction or delete it all together. (the Mark V schematic is missing the essential parts to correct the issue ) I like Reverb, more the better but do not care much for digital artifacts in my tone, unless it is a digital/analog delay, At a low reverb setting it would probably go unnoticed. Would I buy another Roadster or Mark V? Yes. Would I be happy without either? no. Why? they sound awesome. The issue with the Lag, you need to cut back on the reverb level so it is not an issue when dropping to a lower gain channel. It actually does not bother me. If I was trying to record something, it would.
The Lag goes away if you turn off the Reverb Did I say I like reverb?

 

[bandit2013]

I totally missed the boat on the lag issue since I always leave the reverb switched on. I mistaken the term LAG. With the reverb off, there is approximately 15ms of signal loss when changing channels. It is significantly reduced with the reverb on (you can leave the level of reverb on the back of the amp dialed out for which channel you do not desire to have reverb in the signal chain). The Mark V on the other hand does not seem to have any lag with the reverb turned off, quite similar to the Mark IV or RA100. All I have ever noticed was the ramp up on the reverb returning. My BAD I had to read the sticky note on the Lag issue to get a better understanding....

 

[Eevil]

One quick question guys!

what the heck is this Roadster switching lag/latency and loud pops thing? I mean, I do know what is it, but, is this issue addressed? could be a deal breaker for me (specially that latency thing cause the pops I already know how to "fix them", cycle through every channel before turning stand-by off)

I'm about to buy one but with this issues don't know, came from a JVM that give me lots of headaches, last thing I want to do is buying another problem.

Read posts from 2009 or something that freak me up, guess a company like MESA would fix this 5 years later with new amp versions or not?

I've had the Roadster for about a month now and in "proper volumes" the popping is masked when you play at the same time when changing the channel. With whisper-low volumes the pop is freakin' loud I forget this every time I play with low volume and change to 3ch - "KA-POW" It happens only first time I change after power-up...

And for the lag - it is something you can live with if you learn how to anticipate the channel switching... I had the Mark III before and for crunch tone I had to click two or three pedals (ch-change & vol boost, or from heavy drive to crunch: lead off & crunch on & boost) and I was always late - so this small lag is cakewalk compared to that situation Also the tones i'm getting out from Roadster are just so great that I can live with small lag

I think Mesa used LDR:s before in switching circuits but they were not reliable enough..

 

[blackoutshred]

ok ok, I totally understand now (not really worried with the pop, think that I can live with it)... Couple of questions for you guys tho.

1. let's say I'm going to change from ch 3(vintage) to ch 2(fat) |both on the same wattage| and have no reverb on the mix... how much lag is consider "normal" (talking in seconds)? and just to confirm, the way to "solved" this is going to be with the reverb on all the time right?
2. All Roadsters are affected by this?
3. let say I buy the "new" dual rec multi watt, is this version affected by the same lag issues?
4. the mark V has the same problems and ways to solve them as the Roadster right?

Thanks for all the help provided at this point, really appreciate it!

 

[bandit2013]

Since I have both Mark V and Roadster ( I will keep the focus on the Roadster) I ran some experiments with both amps. When I switched over from one amp to the other, I left the amp not in use in standby.

For starters, Mark V. Build date 7/16/2012 There will be a loud pop when coming in or out of stand by. This pop is a result of sudden change in power supply voltage that is emitted in the tube rectifier due to arcing. Note: The Mark V runs a hot bias and seems to be hard on the Rectifier tube even when it is bypassed by silicon diode. As the Tube rectifier ages, the transient becomes more apparent. The Mark V is primarily a Class A amplifier and operates as an extended Class A with A/B push-pull enhancement. This amp is more sensitive to noise from external sources as well as its own. Channel switching generally has associated voltage shifting on the preamp tubes which will cause some noise.
On occasion there may be a pop when switching channels regardless if the Rectifier is used or not. With the amp set at 90W on all three channels (silicon diodes are used). It is obvious that when switching from a channel at 90W to one set to 10W there will be a notable noise or transient that results in audible pop. Channel switching delay seems non-existent but is in the meager 15ms to 30ms time which is typical for relay switching. Reverb re-entry is approximately 500ms. Resolve on the switching noise, Keep a fresh Rectifier tube handy. Problem seems persistent with old tubes.

Now for the focus: Roadster Build date 4/03/2014
Lag on channel switching with reverb off is about the same as with it on. Typical switch time is in the range of 15ms to 30ms. It seems that it is almost non existent. The reverb re-entry or roll-on is about 1 second when it is active and does not seem apparent when switching from clean to high gain. I set the Roadster up to your suggestion. CH3 on Vintage and CH2 set to Fat. Power set to 100W and both channels set to silicone diode tracking. No reverb (switched off). There does not seem to be any significant delay in the signal when channel switching back and forth. I have experimented at different volume settings, with the output matched or unmatched. No pops, and definitely any notable lag longer than 15ms-30ms. I have even tried tube rectification on both, silicon diode on CH3 tube on CH2, Tube on CH3 and diode on CH2. Nothing seems to jump out. However there seems to be a 30ms (or longer but not significant) lag since the power section is being switched between Tube rectification and Diode rectification. I did not notice any pops during the channel switching either by the monkey method (banging away at the switches back and forth) or at random. I even staggered the diode/tube tracking on all 4 channels, mixed the power section between 50W and 100W and the results are the same. I left the amp in standby for an extended period of time. So far nothing do demerit the current Roadster. Actually this amp is very forgiving when turning on or off the standby switch. Seems relatively quiet. (Case with the Mark V is loud pop). Keep in mind my Roadster is new and only has a few hours logged in on the tubes. On average since I have had the amp, it gets about one hour per day of use. I generally split my time between the three amps in the studio (Roadster, Mark V and RA100). If I have the Mark IV in the room it may or may not be used.

The only thing that can be annoying is the ramp up on the reverb after channel switching when it is active. It is more audible when switching to a clean channel or between CH1 and CH2 ( I tend to set it a bit rich but will figure out a happy medium eventually).

In my opinion, The Roadster is a much better amp than the Mark V. That may change for more time logged in on the Roadster. I have had more issues with the Mark V due to the hotter bias on the power tubes. Seems so far that only SED =c= 6L6GC or Gold Lion KT77 operate without issue (most other tubes I have used red plated under two months of use or degraded rapidly, all tubes I have ordered for this amp were requested for use with a fixed hot bias. Either the sources I used for the KT77 or =c= selected the right tubes and the other sources for the others did not (includes Mesa)

Historically, the Rectifier series amps run a cool bias on the tubes.

Unknown on the new mutli-watt Rectifiers. Some like them some do not. I have not played though one but I did like the clean channel in the Mesa video. However, the high gain channels seemed a bit too bright for me.

 

[blackoutshred]

ok, have one more for you...

this lag is only with the reverb effect, the dry guitar signal or both? in other words, when you change from channel to channel (with the effect on) do you have a lag on the reverb effect or in the dry guitar signal? do you really have a 2-5 second delay/lag with no guitar sound at all changing channels!!!!???

You guess it, confused has hell! hope you guys can help me.

cheers.

edit: sorry for posting this haha, didn't saw that you post back... let me read it carefully, just a sec.

 

[bandit2013]

The dry signal is immediate. Barely no lag on the dry signal (at least with my amp anyway).
The lag on reverb is the reverb effect returning to normal levels. Depending on what noise may be in the signal chain the return of reverb may go unnoticed or may not. With no signal and channel switching, you will hear the reverb return to active levels (depending on level of gain an white noise present you will hear a whoosh or subtle wave of sound). With a signal present during channel switching, the dry signal will be immediate (may have a 15ms-30ms delay depending on rectification tracking) but the wet reverb signal will roll in to full level in about a 1 to 2 second period, this is a gradual fad-in of the wet reverb signal only. The dry signal is practically immediate. I have not noticed the dry signal being absent when channel changing. However from what I have read, models from 2009 (not sure when RKII was released, if it would mean any updates to the Roadster, or if there have been any changes since 2009 to the Roadster if at all) had variable delay time in the dry signal (either depending on operating temperature, level of volume set, etc ) there have been reports of 2 to 3 seconds (or longer) of no sound at all (wet or dry) between channel switching. The discovered fix was leaving the reverb turned on. That would piss me off too. So far I have not experienced any issue as indicated by those that had the issues (reverb on or off, makes no difference, dry signal has been present every time channel switching occurs (given the typical relay switch over response of 15ms-30ms)

My Roadster has only been used for about one month. It was not a showroom model either (ordered sight unseen though sweetwater).
Nothing to complain about yet....

 

[blackoutshred]

ok sir, can't thank you enough for this detailed answer, can't ask for more!!!!!!

so, this lag/latency thing (on every post) is only with the reverb mix right (the seconds that the reverb take to really affect the dry signal)?, and not with the guitar dry signal lost (no sound at all) for 1-5 sec when changing ch.



That's a relieve!!!!

 

[blackoutshred]

umm so MESA did addressed this lost of dry guitar signal, thats good! I'm going to order mine from Sweetwater too in about 10 days!

I was so worried about this, I almost change my mind, you helped me not to.

Can you imagine changing from channel 4 (rhythm) to channel 3 (lead) and lose your guitar signal for 5 seconds in a gig!!!!!!!!!!!????? damn!!!!!!! NO SOLO IN THE MOMENT THAT YOU NEED TO!

Profesional head? dont think so man... First amplifier I've heard with a problem like that... is ridiculous!

 

[ryjan]

1-5 seconds? :?
Maybe I just got a really good example of the Roadster but mine switches every bit as fast as my Mark IV used to. Reverb on, off... doesn't matter.

 

[bandit2013]

I have not experienced the issues reported from others. I only hear the reverb mix or fade-in when changing to a clean channel with the reverb active. In essence, I have yet to discover the dry signal loss that is longer than a few milliseconds (with the reverb on or off).

:| sorry if the following changes your confidence. :|

I hope that Mesa had discovered the lag issue resulting from extended use during a gig. I may use the amp for an hour minimum and I do frequently change channels during my sessions. I would be quite upset if there was a 1 to 3 second or longer loss of the dry signal. My first thought would be damn tubes.... are they red plating? Did I blow a screen resistor? Unfortunately, one of the uncontrolled variables are the tubes and tube quality if that has something to do with it. So far I have not experienced any issues with the Roadster. My assumptions make me believe there was a fix implemented at time of manufacture. Also, how many amplifiers are effected by this problem? Considering the Roadster has been out for some time now (perhaps longer than 5 years). If Mesa Engineering did not listen to the customers and implement a design change or corrective action to reduce or eliminate the problem it may still be present. Is it tube life related? Age of components due to excess heat? When did the owners first discover this issue?, and when does it become an issue from time of ownership? I truly understand your concerns. Perhaps you have done more research than I have. I was originally after a Roadster but the Mark V won me over during a comparison of the two. After having several issues with the V, I decided to get the Roadster after all to replace the Mark V as my main amp.

After reading more about the channel switching lag, it has me concerned somewhat but so far I have yet to have any issue with the Roadster that I bought this year. I would not rely on just my opinion. I may seem like a Mesa Enthusiast, sure I have 4 Mesa Amps. I also have a Carvin V3MC. I would even consider a Fender Blues Deluxe (I fell in love with that amp not too long ago while shopping for a beginner amp for my nephew).

I would agree, the cost of the amp, it should be defect free... If Mesa wants to stay on top and continue to produce a quality product they need to listen to the customer base and be responsive with customer service as well as make design changes to correct the problem. My first Mesa Boogie I bought in 1987. That amp has served me well (despite a few burned up tubes during the extended use during band practice and jam sessions). I sold that amp in 2012 and it was still kick ass then as it was when I turned it on the very first time in 1987. The Mark IV that I bought in 2000 has also surpassed my expectations. I finally re-tubed it in 2012 (I suffered from an injury to my left arm that prevented playing the guitar for nearly 8 years, tubes had life left but replaced them with new tubes so I could use the old one's in the V, reason following :arrow: The Mark V has been a disappointment to some extent due to hot bias and having to use the high dollar tubes. I have had issues with the V including loss of screen resistors. Easy fix for me. I still like the amp despite its quirks. So far the Roadster has been perfect with no issues. Same goes for the RA100 (bought it used, unfortunately the tube sockets were drilled out and the key on the tube will not prevent indexing of the tubes) other than that, it's performance has been as expected, it too is a boogie after all. I would have gone with a Marshall or Fender but I still have not forgotten the issues I had in the past with those brands before I got my first boogie. So far my picks have been great and leave a good taste in mind, however the only booger I got may be the Mark V. That one is a bit hard (on the ears) but can be softened with change in tube characteristics. If it was not for the CH2 crunch and Mark I tones or the CH3 extreme tone, not to mention the super clean CH1, I would have sold the amp after the first 3 sets of tube disasters (this was prior to understanding the Mark V runs a bit too hot of a bias on the class A tubes).

 

[bandit2013]

Blackoutshred,

You have really captured my curiosity on how deep this issue really is since I am now a Roadster owner. I searched the forums for a while, then decided to find out what may be reported elsewhere... I do not believe there is enough complaints relevant to the lag issue, especially as of late. Seems most of the complaints were early in production. This may be a fraction of Roadsters sold. The only change that was implemented was the change in preamp tubes as it was found that the Russian tubes did not last very long in the cathode follower positions (V3 and V5). Mesa did use Electro Harmonix preamp tubes for a short time from what I gathered. Issue was the Russian tubes do not operate properly with the cathode follower circuits. Chinese or the JJ tubes did not exhibit the issue. Mesa no longer offers the Russian preamp tubes. The 12AT7 that they do offer is Chinese, the remainder are JJ tubes. Perhaps this may be the smoking gun or not... If all Roadsters were prone to this issue, it would be an ongoing topic of discussion. Those that seem to have the problem have been able to work around it by using the Reverb left on and either dialed out per channel if not needed or set to a desired level. I tired to see if there was any report on design change, apparently there is no indication of one. It is true that 1000 praises and one complaint can impact the reputation and question the reliability of a product. I wish I could say the same thing about the Mark V, it is a great amp but some may have issues. So far I have been able to correct or overcome the issues with the V.

I do not seem to have any issues with latency or lag while channel switching with the reverb off as I said before, actually I feel the Roadster is by far the best amp I own. I would be complaining directly to Mesa Customer Service as well as making a note of the potential issue and means to correct it in the Forums. For what it is worth, I do not believe there is a major issue with the Roadster. I would suggest, if at all possible, find the nearest dealer (if they have one) try it out. Before you do, print out the manual from Mesa web site for sample settings as the controls may not be as intuitive as they appear.

 

[blackoutshred]

1-5 seconds? :?
Maybe I just got a really good example of the Roadster but mine switches every bit as fast as my Mark IV used to. Reverb on, off... doesn't matter.

They had to fix it at some point, here are some posts about it:

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=38969

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=37624

http://www.forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=37594 (specially this one)

BTW, what is the build date in yours?

 

[blackoutshred]

Blackoutshred,

You have really captured my curiosity on how deep this issue really is since I am now a Roadster owner. I searched the forums for a while, then decided to find out what may be reported elsewhere... I do not believe there is enough complaints relevant to the lag issue, especially as of late. Seems most of the complaints were early in production. This may be a fraction of Roadsters sold. The only change that was implemented was the change in preamp tubes as it was found that the Russian tubes did not last very long in the cathode follower positions (V3 and V5). Mesa did use Electro Harmonix preamp tubes for a short time from what I gathered. Issue was the Russian tubes do not operate properly with the cathode follower circuits. Chinese or the JJ tubes did not exhibit the issue. Mesa no longer offers the Russian preamp tubes. The 12AT7 that they do offer is Chinese, the remainder are JJ tubes. Perhaps this may be the smoking gun or not... If all Roadsters were prone to this issue, it would be an ongoing topic of discussion. Those that seem to have the problem have been able to work around it by using the Reverb left on and either dialed out per channel if not needed or set to a desired level. I tired to see if there was any report on design change, apparently there is no indication of one. It is true that 1000 praises and one complaint can impact the reputation and question the reliability of a product. I wish I could say the same thing about the Mark V, it is a great amp but some may have issues. So far I have been able to correct or overcome the issues with the V.

I do not seem to have any issues with latency or lag while channel switching with the reverb off as I said before, actually I feel the Roadster is by far the best amp I own. I would be complaining directly to Mesa Customer Service as well as making a note of the potential issue and means to correct it in the Forums. For what it is worth, I do not believe there is a major issue with the Roadster. I would suggest, if at all possible, find the nearest dealer (if they have one) try it out. Before you do, print out the manual from Mesa web site for sample settings as the controls may not be as intuitive as they appear.

agreed with everything bandit2013!

Can't tell when but this appear to be addressed... I've read that this issue is more frequent when the amp gets really hot (maybe gig levels), have you giged with it? if not, how many hours have you played the amp in a row, got hot enough?

I'm glad that in your case the amp worked like its supposed to... I'm going to buy it now knowing all the info you provided... for one month or so I've been looking for the right amp for me and the Roadster vs Mark V were the serious options. I came from a Marshall JVM that gave me lots of headaches (maybe like you with your mark), don't want to buy another problem for $2000 +.

I was like blue that now that I've found the correct tone for me it appears to have serious problems, but guess what, not anymore!!!! hope everything goes well with mine!

 

[domct203]

FWIW-
I've owned my Roadster since '07. Any channel change pops are eliminated with cycling thru while in standby, and there is no lag. It's been this way since I bought it, and I play at band volume 4+ hours a week.

It's the best amp I've ever owned, and the favorite out of all my amps.

Dom

 

[bandit2013]

The longest time I have played thought he Roadster was today for 3 hours and no rest. God my ears are still ringing. I play my amps hard enough to feel it. I even pushed the envelop even further with an equivalent full stack (412 with EV and the other with V30, damn does that sound great 8) ) There was considerable heat emanating from the top vent but the chassis did not get all that hot. No issues to report, channels switched just fine when I stopped as they did when I started. This is the first amp I did not want to change tubes in. It sounds perfect as is. Actually I realize that I have way too much reverb set on the clean channels. It is almost like an echo chamber. I have heard some nice digital reverbs, huge hall, large plate, etc. I have to say the tube circuits used for the Roadster reverb is a job well done. Talk about some depth. I could probably go on and on about how much I like this amp.

I have not been on a Gig in almost 24 years. That does not mean I do not use my equipment just as hard as I would if I did gig. At least I am not getting any complaints from the neighbors. They have actually complemented me on my playing.

I did have some headaches with the Mark V. Perhaps with this amp I am one of the few that are having issues with it. To be honest, I like this amp a lot despite some of the inherited evils it may posses (gremlins). That has been resolved and have recently transformed the head to a combo (stuffed with an EVM12L) I have it positioned between the Roadster and the RA100 so I can make use of both 412 cabinets with this amp too. So far the Mark V is holding up. will see what may yet come to pass on this.

 

[blackoutshred]

Guys hi!!!! ok I'm exited as ffffuuuuuukkkkkkk... I did it, purchase the Dual Roadster today at Sweetwater!

hope they serve me well with my, not born yet, baby, wish me luck!

I've got the Roadster Black Jude grill version just because... dunno.

Expect pics soon (like a month from now )

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