Rectoverb 25 Combo vs Roadster Combo

[afu]

After my last mod to make the 500 k pot reduce in value, I needed the bleed. I use 37 feet of cable, plus pedals. When I'd roll it back, it was mud from 9 down and I darkened the overall tone on purpose. I know I said the mod loses bass, but the whole signal is decreasing, it just helps the quieter settings maintain the edge. Also, I misspoke. The cutoff is 723 Hz, so it's not terribly bright, it just sounds like a super wide bandpass after 8.

I'm not trying to convince, you. I wanted to clarify.

I suppose the other situation, which would not impact your wiring would be to change the cap value into your tone pot.

I had a GCB-95 for years and it never bothered me. The tone suck wasn't that bad and the buffer helps the wah sound good when a long cable was used. I now have 535q and I have sometimes wished it had a buffer for long cable runs.

 

[YellowJacket]

It's hard to know if you want a big, loose low end, or a high, tight one. I prefer an articulate tone with lots of clarity and string separation for complex chord voicings. I know this isn't the same thing everyone wants.

I think I was recommended the Rebel Yell and Cold Sweat by Tim years ago. At the time BKP was just becoming known and I was looking for something that was similar to a Super Distortion (Cold Sweat). I think he recommended the Rebel Yell neck, but it's been so long that I could be remembering things wrong.

My only real issue with going BKP is that I've never liked any of the Alnico V humbuckers I've tried. Conversely, I've liked every Alnico II pickup I've tried and almost every ceramic pickup I've tried. BKPs A2 range limits me to more of what I already have. By the time the output gets ramped up a bit he's already into A5. I've been curious about the Mules for years but I've never tried A4 thus don't know how it'll feel. If I could find them locally I probalby would've had a set by now, but that hasn't been the case.

One of my Les Pauls currently has Lollar Imperial Highwinds. Overwound Alnico II PAFs (8.4k and 9.4k). The sound is thick in the mids with a rolled off top and bottom end response. They have a thicker, smoother 70s hard rock sound and are probably similar to the BKP VHII or Black Dogs, although A2 vs A5.

What I'm looking for with this specific Les Paul is to retain the old school (bright/edgy) PAF sound I'm getting with the stock Burstbuckers (1 & 2), but a bit fuller in the midrange so that it holds together better with higher gain. The problem I have at the moment is that they're a little too scooped, so when I dial the amp's bass back the sound looses all body because there isn't enough midrange present to fill in the gap, yet boosting the mids on the amp sounds artificial and actually reduces clarity.

What I'm leaning towards right now is a set of Seymour Duncan Slash signatures, which based on various descriptions I've read have more mids of a higher wind while still retaining the brighter response of a traditional PAF. Plus, they were specifically designed for modern CS Les Pauls and higher gain settings.

And, if they don't work out I'll try something else.

On the BKP forum, they'd recommend a Mule neck and Abraxas bridge for you. I can guarantee it.
Bare Knuckle will give you your choice of magnets if you would like but they cannot guarantee how the pickups will sound!



I'm honestly chucking a bit about your Mark V experience. I definitely have a preference for my guitar with the dark, phat pickups with a Mark V. The other two with the Rebel Yell and the Alnico Nailbomb are much more at home in a recto!!

 

[screamingdaisy]

Yeah... I think the thing with the Mark V is that it hides nothing.

Makes me wonder how many people who tried and disliked a Mark just have a sh*tty sounding guitar?

 

[Given To Fly]

Yeah... I think the thing with the Mark V is that it hides nothing.

Makes me wonder how many people who tried and disliked a Mark just have a sh*tty sounding guitar?

Do you mean the Mark V "hides nothing" or is "sensitive to everything?" To me there is a difference. This is actually a hard topic to discuss on other forums with other guitarists because it ultimately becomes suggestive of a persons ability as a player. There is no quicker way to hurting a guitarists ego than criticizing their gear and then their playing. Since we are all grown ups and own the same gear I'm hoping no ego's will be bruised.

To me, an amp that "hides nothing" is suggestive of persons technique. These amps are often described as being unforgiving, dry sounding as opposed to wet sounding, and the implication is if you like these amp you are a good guitarist. VHT amps (original brand) are often described this way.

An amp that is "sensitive to everything" is suggestive of how it responds to different strings, pickups, picks, etc. "Nuance" would be a good noun to apply to these amps. An amp that is "sensitive to everything" is usually seen as being a good amp and the guitarists ability rarely comes into the discussion. The Bogner Helios and Goldfinger 45 are good examples of amps that are "sensitive to everything."

Within Mesa/Boogie, I feel the Mark Series and Rectifier Series carry their own stereotypes. The Mark V is viewed as a "sophisticated tone machine of bliss" and the Dual Rectifier is viewed as a "neanderthal's noise maker." When I got my Roadster, it "hid nothing" and was "sensitive to everything." The amp itself sounded great, it was the player that needed work. :lol: I'm a better guitarist now because of my Roadster. I can not say the same thing about the Mark IV I owned or the Mark V's I've played. They were just good amps, but feel like the Mark V is treated like the "holy grail" of amps by many people with the worst offenders being Mesa/Boogie themselves, when in reality the Mark V is only a "really nice cup."

Your thoughts.

 

[afu]

(Saving Space )Lots o' good stuff.

May I get in on this?

Well directed criticism is incredibly useful. People often get butthurt and pay it forward instead of stopping long enough to evaluate if there's any truth, but critics often forget to add insight or solutions.

When I got my Recto, I thought there was something wrong with it. I had a very difficult time, because it not only shone a light on my playing, but it also reacted in dramatic ways to intonation. Even now, when I flare and I can barely grip the strings, the couple of cents the note is from the rest of the chord can be ugly. That is distracting with equal tempered tuning and takes time to get a hang for the feel. I would compare this difficulty curve to when I began recording in 1999 and realized my playing wasn't tight enough, but with time I became like an atomic clock. Similarly, with time, my playing improved with the Recto as I got the feel for its sensitivity.

Part of the thing with the Rectifier Series is that it has a massive amount of asymmetry in the preamp. While you can get the buzzsaw, part of the signal is cleaner and clearer until a certain point around 2:00-ish. The coupled cathode follower plays a big role in the sound as well, since it introduces more overdrive into the signal than an amp without one (like a Mark Series amp).

The Recto has 2 stages which are pretty flat and pretty clean for a high gain amp (V1a and V3a). The cold clipper (V2b) and the cathode follower (V3b) end up doing the most work on the distortion and/or overdrive character. These other stages are basically trying to make a larger, fairly faithful, reproduction of the input signal (V1a) or the cold clipper (V3a) and the result is a distortion machine with a lot of clarity mixed in, where part of the signal transitions out of distortion before the other side does.

A Mark Series has some asymmetry, but not to the same extent and uses alternating bias points. By controlling the amount of signal passed along to cascade from stage to stage, it creates a complex overdrive or distortion that is much more even on each half of the signal. When pushed into a massive, monstrous, distortion, the whole signal is decaying to lesser amounts of drive much more evenly. The harmonics are being overlapped and re-amplified and become quite complex, but no single stage contributes the same amount of massive harmonics which a cold clipping stage would produce. The result is smoother and less lopsided. The dynamics are going to be easier to control with the guitar and hands and could be more suitable to a person who wants to use a single channel for all sounds.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Do you mean the Mark V "hides nothing" or is "sensitive to everything?"

Ironically, when I first wrote that paragraph I said "sensitive to everything", then I edited it to "hides nothing". And honestly, I think it's a mix of both.

On one hand a Mark hides nothing as it is very precise and articulate, it gives you exactly what you give it, and if you play it long enough it will force you to become a better player. It's also capable of being very touch sensitive and dynamic, although that sensitivity is diminished at the gain levels some people are using them at due to the compression.

On the other hand, it's probably the most sensitive of all my amps as to what's being input into it. Without changing settings my Les Paul will push it to heavy distortion and picking lightly will produce slightly less distortion, whereas my Telecaster sounds like it's still in overdrive and picking lightly produces a clean sound.

The Recto IMO is a totally different beast. I find it's sensitive to input, but in a drastically different manner. As adults touched on, the cold clipping stage is basically a distortion generator and it doesn't need a whole lot of signal to produce it. So, without changing settings on my amp my Les Paul will push it to heavy distortion and picking lightly will produce fairly clean, whereas my Telecaster produces a different character of heavy distortion, and picking lightly produces a different character of mostly clean.

As for the "hides nothing" aspect of a Recto I think it's true, and I think a lot of people have a hard time thinking in the 3rd dimension (time) with this amp. The Mark is a simple input=output paradigm in that it tracks tightly, so when you strike a note you hear it and when you cut a note off you no longer hear it. The Recto on the other hand allows you to shape and control the response of the note using your attack and muting technique, so while you're attacking the note now, it might take the better part of a half second before the full impact of the note is fully resolved, and a simple cut off might take a few fractions of a second before the amp fully ramps down. IMO, it causes a feedback loop where there's a time gap between what your right hand is doing and your ear is hearing that many people perceive as looseness, but once you start to learn how to manipulate it the amp really starts to become fun.

Of course, just like people can kill the dynamics and touch sensitivity of the Mark by turning up the gain levels to add compression, people can kill the dynamics and touch sensitivity of the Recto by boosting it for more compression. Neither of which is inherently negative... The only rule is that there are no rules and people should do whatever it is they need to do to get their sound.

I don't know if I actually answered your question, or if I went off the rails there, but that's how I feel about it.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Within Mesa/Boogie, I feel the Mark Series and Rectifier Series carry their own stereotypes. The Mark V is viewed as a "sophisticated tone machine of bliss" and the Dual Rectifier is viewed as a "neanderthal's noise maker."

Well, they say stereotypes exist for a reason! :lol:

I'm probably not the best person to comment on this because I generally play Neanderthal rock (aka, stoner rock, sludge metal, grunge, etc) and like the Recto for its ability to sound like impending doom and hit like a sledgehammer.

FWIW, the thing I like about the Recto is that I can get fairly high levels of distortion with very low levels of compression. It's what lends the Recto impact and weight that something like a fuzz box is incapable of, and it gives me a level of control with my fingers that I haven't found it other amps, and definelty not in pedals.

Conversely, the problem I have with Marks is that to get the levels of distortion I want they produce too much compression, and to get the level of dynamics I want they sound too clean.

The Recto lets me have my cake, and eat it too. Just don't expect it to sing like a Mark on leads. :lol:

 

[afu]

My Stoner riffs come through nicely with a Recto. The feel is like having two amps in one box. Since I use the tube rectifier most of the time, the response you're describing (and the swirl you pointed out awhile back) is exactly why I love it. I sang, played bass, and listened to horns a lot as a kid. That slower, melodic, approach works really well with the way the amp reacts.

I don't think I would ever sell my Recto, unless I did an upgrade to another. The way it works is too awesome for my taste and weird musical tangents. I do want a brighter amp to play around with and also to compliment the Recto, but other amps just don't do the same thing. Even if my hands begin to deform and I can no longer play, I don't think I could part with it.

In regards to the stereotypes: the Roadster/Road King is a challenger to the stereotype, since the clean channels' crunch tones are similar to the cascading gain of the Marks, but the amount of cascading is done with fewer stages.

 

[Given To Fly]

Ok, I'm glad I brought it up because I felt like it was an elephant in the room that only I could see.

In regards to the stereotypes: the Roadster/Road King is a challenger to the stereotype, since the clean channels' crunch tones are similar to the cascading gain of the Marks, but the amount of cascading is done with fewer stages.

On top of that, I probably play the clean channels on my Roadster more than Channels 3 and 4 and I don't use a boost in front of the amp. :shock: Good discussion. I think everyone's ego has remained intact too! :lol:

 

[screamingdaisy]

Traded the Mark V in on a guitar.

Now I can start a nü-metal band. :lol:

 

[jc986]

I'd say you got the better end of that trade. Very nice!

 

[screamingdaisy]

I feel as though I've been shunned.

Come on guys! I've got my Tremonti signature Wah and Chad Kroeger signature hair crimper and styling mousse in the mail! Can we still be friends? You guys can come to my place and we'll jam Photograph while we style each others hair and beards! It'll be fun!

:lol:

 

[LithiumZero]

beards? Beards are the new mullet. Shave that **** off :mrgreen:

 

[afu]

I feel as though I've been shunned.

Come on guys! I've got my Tremonti signature Wah and Chad Kroeger signature hair crimper and styling mousse in the mail! Can we still be friends? You guys can come to my place and we'll jam Photograph while we style each others hair and beards! It'll be fun!

:lol:

Ah, dude, I've been busy.

Is that root beer colored? Now I'm thirsty.

 

[screamingdaisy]

The colour has some other far more fancy name, but root-beer is a pretty adequate description.

You know, since your post describing the way the cold clipping in this amp works I've been able to start picking up on the octave harmonic. I think this new guitar makes it a little more obvious as the bridge is a bit dark with a honky midrange, which gives the amp a midrange grunt that's making individual strings pop and doesn't burry the detail in top end sizzle (aka, fizz). Overall, everything is a lot clearer. It's like this guitar and this amp were designed to work together. Even modern mode, which I've generally been unable to stand in the past (too scooped) sounds great now. It's like there was some frequency that was absent in my other guitars that this PRS is pushing, and it's making this amp fire on all 8 cylinders. I'm actually playing cowboy chords at levels of gain I thought were previously bordering on unusable and getting string to string definition. I suspect it has something to do with the way it's intonated.

It's been a long time since I've been this excited about a new piece of kit.

 

[dlpasco]

I feel as though I've been shunned.

Come on guys! I've got my Tremonti signature Wah and Chad Kroeger signature hair crimper and styling mousse in the mail! Can we still be friends? You guys can come to my place and we'll jam Photograph while we style each others hair and beards! It'll be fun!

:lol:

There's sure as hell no shunning here, I have a huge amount of respect for you and I traded in a couple of my amps to get a Les Paul. Your new guitar is beautiful and, like you, I traded my Mark V in order to get my guitar.

FWIW, it took me about three weeks to check out the V:25 after I traded in my full-sized V. Also, as I've said previously, I actually like it more.

This circle of experiences eventually (and recently) taught me that I really love my dual rectifiers, that my Mark V:25 is wonderful, and that my Road King II is so great that I needed to get it out of hock and bring it home.

I hope that helps. Much respect. I'd love to hear some clips of your Roadster and your new guitar.

-Daniel

 

[afu]

The colour has some other far more fancy name, but root-beer is a pretty adequate description.

You know, since your post describing the way the cold clipping in this amp works I've been able to start picking up on the octave harmonic. I think this new guitar makes it a little more obvious as the bridge is a bit dark with a honky midrange, which gives the amp a midrange grunt that's making individual strings pop and doesn't burry the detail in top end sizzle (aka, fizz). Overall, everything is a lot clearer. It's like this guitar and this amp were designed to work together. Even modern mode, which I've generally been unable to stand in the past (too scooped) sounds great now. It's like there was some frequency that was absent in my other guitars that this PRS is pushing, and it's making this amp fire on all 8 cylinders. I'm actually playing cowboy chords at levels of gain I thought were previously bordering on unusable and getting string to string definition. I suspect it has something to do with the way it's intonated.

It's been a long time since I've been this excited about a new piece of kit.

That's the McCarty, right? I might have to check that out.

 

[screamingdaisy]

There's sure as hell no shunning here...

Thanks. It was more of an internal joke. When I was younger I swore I would never own a PRS. I'm not a Creed fan and I hate Nickelback. I don't play nu-metal and I'm not into pop-punk. Quite literally, none of my musical heroes play PRS. I thought the PRS Single Cut was a lame copy of a Les Paul with narrow shoulders and a fat ass. I hated their over-the-top finishes in stupid colours. If I met someone in real life that was into PRS I took it as a sign that we probably wouldn't be friends.

The fact that I have a PRS plugged into Dual Rectifier strikes deep into my soul, and the humour of my situation has me laughing whenever I pause to think about it.


And truthfully, I figured people didn't reply because they were busy. 8)

 

[screamingdaisy]

That's the McCarty, right? I might have to check that out.

Yes. It's pretty sweet. What surprised me most is the single coil mode. I spent awhile A/Bing against my Telecaster, and while it's definitely not a Telecaster it's of a similar vein and I don't think most listeners would know the difference unless you demonstrated it to them.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

PRS are GREAT guitars. What pickups does that one have?

I'll tell you first hand, the newer PRS pickups are serious high end killer pickups (like the guitars always have been!). I have an EBMM JP12 BFR, and it is a great guitar, but the pickups don't compare to any of my three newest PRS guitars. The PRS pickups are like comparing a real high end stereo to a regular home stereo. Just more clear, detailed and transparent. And yes, even with high gain beast amps.

Congrats!