Parallel to Series conversions... alternative solutions?

[MichiganboySB]

I'm taking it that Series is much more desirable than the default Parallel efx loop thats in a Dual Rect. Besides getting your amp modded is there some kind of unit that I can buy that I can just plug in lol?
Also if you could explain why you desire a series over parallel that would be cool.
Thx,
Ken

 

[confused]

No

It would be pretty cool if there was though.

 

[Jaroslav]

Guys, I see absolutely no advantages of series loop compared to parallel. Could somebody name them? I have always preferred parallel loops. Not mentioning, that you get a virtual serial loop, when you set MIX to 100 %.

A well made parallel loop (as for example in ENGL amps) is as good or better than a serial one provided you know how to set up your effect devices. Right now, I cannot comment on the loop of my DR, because I am still waiting for the FX processor to arrive (but I used a parallel FX loop on Engl Fireball for quite a time).

 

[Elpelotero]

update when it comes in.

 

[confused]

Elpelotero explained the difference in another thread.

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=5200&highlight=paralell+parallel

 

[tele_jas]

I've never been able to use much more than time based FX in a Parallel loop, and they work great in a Parallel loop.... but when trying to use an EQ, BBE or a modulation FX it just isn't as prominent as it needs to be. It's still there, but just burried in the blend/mix and when I tried turning up the FX mix on the amp it started sounding out of phase (and I was using a $600 FX processor, not some cheapie). When I converted my T-verb to series, all my problems with FX were gone and I could use a volume pedal as a lead boost too which you can't do in a parallel loop.

Maybe I had the wrong cables or bad cables that made it sound out of phase, but I've read several complaints about the "out of phase" sound when turning the FX mix up on the amp.

 

[Jaroslav]

I agree, that and EQ does not work best in a parallel loop. I've had some good results with flanger and chorus and even wah in a parallel loop. In fact, any high quality FX device mixes the dry and wet signal the same way as a parallel loop does - but the FX level can be controlled better. If you set the loop to say 50 % mix then you can get maximum of say 10 % dry to 90% wet (if the fx device can control the output level). It is a must to set the processor to 100 % wet, otherwise you can get some phase cancellations.

The moral of the story is: If you do not need many different effects while some of them must be 100 % wet, you do not need a serial loop.

But still, when looking at the schematic - mesa's solution is inferior to Engl. When you set the mix to 100 %, you still have the original signal connected through a 50 kohm resistance. In the case of Engl, a dual potentiometer is used - and the second half shorts the dry signal to ground if set to 100 % wet. If I was to mod my Dual, I would have it modded to have a parallel loop as Engl amps - best of both worlds serial or parallel.

 

[MichiganboySB]

Ok thankyou for clearing this up for me. Seems to be not that significant then, I'll stick with my series... its all good :lol:
Ken

 

[OneMoreAugust]

I had my DR modded to series at a Mesa Auth repair shop, so it was a mod that came right from Mesa...which is aslo completely reversable. I needed mine modded so that I could use my volume pedal in the fx to completely cut the signal. When it was parallel with the wet/dry at 100%, there was still some bleed through.
I use my volume pedal in the fx loop as a kind-of swell pedal and also to be able to turn down my amp volume when I am playing w/ some feedback (for that "controled feedback-background noise" effect). I also like to turn the pedal all the way down when I am switching guitars. I have three guitars on wireless and when I turn off one backpack and turn on the other, there is sometimes a popping noise. By cutting the amp signal down, you don't hear it.
But that's pretty much the only reasons I switched it.

 

[PDad]

I needed mine modded so that I could use my volume pedal in the fx to completely cut the signal. When it was parallel with the wet/dry at 100%, there was still some bleed through.
... I have three guitars on wireless and when I turn off one backpack and turn on the other, there is sometimes a popping noise. By cutting the amp signal down, you don't hear it.
But that's pretty much the only reasons I switched it.

OneMoreAugust--this is a perfect example of when a series loop is necessary. There seems to be some conflicting info on this board about the difference between parallel and series loops. The concept is simple to anyone who's used a mixing board. Series="Insert," Parallel = "Send."

Series is meant to affect the entire signal (e.g., volume or EQ) and parallel is meant to process a portion of the signal, then add it back to the original signal (e.g., reverb, chorus, delay).

A series loop can be used for delays and reverbs if the processor has a wet/dry control. That's enough of my soapbox.

OneMoreAugust, THREE wireless axes is a neat thing! Why do you turn off the backpacks at all? Are you conserving batteries, or is it not sufficient just to turn the guitar's volume down when using a different guitar?

 

[nosajwp]

If you set your mix to 100%, then your parallel loop becomes a serial loop, because 100% of the preamp signal is diverted into the loop, with 0% bypassing it.

 

[PDad]

If you set your mix to 100%, then your parallel loop becomes a serial loop, because 100% of the preamp signal is diverted into the loop, with 0% bypassing it.

Ummm...not necessarily. Not all the amps have a "100%" setting on the pot...Singles and Rect-O-Verbs, for example, are 90% max!

 

[Jaroslav]

The design of Mesa's parallel loop is not the greatest. I get some bleed throughs at 100 % wet setting, it does not short the original signal to ground. This also I suppose causes some of the problems with certain multi-fx devices - I got some uncontrollable feedback with GNX-4 while in the loop of a three channel DR (GNX-4 set to bypass).

 

[OneMoreAugust]

If you set your mix to 100%, then your parallel loop becomes a serial loop, because 100% of the preamp signal is diverted into the loop, with 0% bypassing it.

nosajwp, There was still a small amount of dry signal, trust me. Or else I wouldn't have modded my amp.

OneMoreAugust, THREE wireless axes is a neat thing! Why do you turn off the backpacks at all? Are you conserving batteries, or is it not sufficient just to turn the guitar's volume down when using a different guitar?

PDad, All the backpacks have to be on the same frequency in order for them to go through the same receiver. Because of this, only one can be on at a time...if you leave one on, you get a bunch of nasty noise!

 

[NoGlassNoClass]

Would it be possible to use a different pot or add a short to ground so that a setting of 100% on the fx mix pot would give a true series loop while still having the option of parallel, thus leaving the output and solo features functioning? Seems I read these functions are disabled when converting to a series loop.

I am happy with the parallel since I really only use time-based FX, but it seems like a cheap-and-easy fix for a lot of the guys here (assuming it could be done)

 

[broknstuff]

I had my DR modded to series at a Mesa Auth repair shop, so it was a mod that came right from Mesa...which is aslo completely reversable. I needed mine modded so that I could use my volume pedal in the fx to completely cut the signal. When it was parallel with the wet/dry at 100%, there was still some bleed through.
I use my volume pedal in the fx loop as a kind-of swell pedal and also to be able to turn down my amp volume when I am playing w/ some feedback (for that "controled feedback-background noise" effect). I also like to turn the pedal all the way down when I am switching guitars. I have three guitars on wireless and when I turn off one backpack and turn on the other, there is sometimes a popping noise. By cutting the amp signal down, you don't hear it.
But that's pretty much the only reasons I switched it.

how much did that cost you? I'm Thinking of having it down to my dual recto.

 

[OneMoreAugust]

how much did that cost you? I'm Thinking of having it down to my dual recto.

It was a shop minimum...i think like $45

Would it be possible to use a different pot or add a short to ground so that a setting of 100% on the fx mix pot would give a true series loop while still having the option of parallel, thus leaving the output and solo features functioning? Seems I read these functions are disabled when converting to a series loop.

I'm not an amp tech, but from what I know I believe the only way to convert it is to do the mod. Which like I said, isn't very intrusive and can be reversed.
I still have the solo control, but not the fx loop switching, which may matter to some people, but it didn't to me. I've heard that you can run an a/b that goes in your loop before your effects and also back to your return. This will allow you to bypass your effects just the same...only not on your amp footswitch. I notice no difference in my tone w or w/o the effects, although I don't have much in my loop.
Also if you mod it, you must always have something in your loop, even if you choose not to run anything in your loop. You just plug in a 1ft guitar cable from the send to the return to complete the signal.

 

[diamondschwin]

i called mesa boogie today and somebody named mike kale(sp?) said that the mod does NOT void the warranty if done by a mesa boogie authorized service dealer, he also mentioned that he believes the out put of the send on the loop at 'normal' position stays at line level (+4) not being bumped down to -10 but thats what the send level thing is for!


thanks to who pointed out that you always needs something in the loop, i was considering it and that wouldve been a weird surprise!

 

[Grandor]

Wouldn't you only NEED something in your loop if your fx loop was ON?

Otherwise the FX loop wouldn't be being used whatsoever?
Or am I incorrect.

 

[Jaroslav]

NoGlassNoClass - a different pot or a short to ground (maybe a suitable push-pull pot could be found) would definitely help.

OneMoreAugust - I see no reason, why should the fx loop switching cease to work after parallel to serial mod - and also, I can see no reason, why there must be some cable always in the loop. It can be done so, that FX loop switching works and if there is no effect in use, the loop is bypassed internally (using a switching jack).