Mesa MarkV / Saturation 'mod'
- Thread starter APEMAN
- Start date
Help Support The Boogie Board:
APEMAN said:Wayno said:
...LOL, I record bootlegs and band rehearsals with my good old galaxy S3- I set it up with an modded kernel which enables you to set the voltages on the audio preamps individually. I think I could record the jet sound of a plane with that thing...
LOL I thought based on the filename it was from an iPhone. They really do a fantastic job recording live, loud rock and roll.
Wayno
Well-known member
mace said:APEMAN said:Wayno said:
...LOL, I record bootlegs and band rehearsals with my good old galaxy S3
LOL I thought based on the filename it was from an iPhone. They really do a fantastic job recording live, loud rock and roll.
Haha i get ya 8) 8)
Wayno
Well-known member
Better quality i hope you agree here.
Dialled in a crunch i liked on Ch3 Mark iV mode and Ch2 Crunch mode and recorded one of each. Will re-record same songs with exactly the same settings soon as i can with both V4 and V6 and then V6 only for comparison.
SM58 square on edge of dust cap approx 1" from grill
Cubase no processing whatsoever
AT7 in V4 only
Ch3
https://youtu.be/pZi8Lyu-i_I
Ch2
https://youtu.be/x74ip64478k
Enjoy
(hopefully)
Dialled in a crunch i liked on Ch3 Mark iV mode and Ch2 Crunch mode and recorded one of each. Will re-record same songs with exactly the same settings soon as i can with both V4 and V6 and then V6 only for comparison.
SM58 square on edge of dust cap approx 1" from grill
Cubase no processing whatsoever
AT7 in V4 only
Ch3
https://youtu.be/pZi8Lyu-i_I
Ch2
https://youtu.be/x74ip64478k
Enjoy
(hopefully)
Markageddon
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2017
- Messages
- 274
- Reaction score
- 1
Wayno said:
Nice. Particularly on the SG one...
After reading all the pages in this thread, I decided it was time to experiment a bit. I use my Mark V channels, as many: ch1-clean, ch2- crunch, ch3-heavy rhythm/solo. For the most part, I was using Mark IV mode, when using channel 3. I have a great clean dialed in, and a very good, cutting crunch tone, but channel 3 was lacking something. I posted a thread asking about favorite overdrives to use with the Mark V, because of this. Some of you responded on that as well (thanks, BTW) . I am glad I found this thread. I first tried the 12AT7 in position v6, played for a few hours. It was much better, but not overwhelming enough (for me) to keep it. So, I put the 12AX7 back in and left it. A few days later, I thought what the heck, I'll try the 12AT7 in v4. I am glad I did- much better tone for me on IIC+ mode. In the past, I really didn't use this mode, now it sounds great to me; and meshes well when switching up from crunch in ch2, within the same song. I am not using Mark IV mode much now, it sounds a bit too compressed for the music I generally play, and I don't think the settings I have will allow it to cut through the mix as well. Playing alone at home, sure it sounds fine, but this is my main gigging amp, so I rather keep it set for playing out. I have yet to use a 12AT7 in both, v4 and v6, together; but just may try it as well.
royslead said:
I have found that the Mesa grid slammer or Flux drive works well with the higher gain channels. I much prefer the grid slammer more than the Flux drive. This added more of a balanced tone to the Mark V. I have not tried it after the V4 tube swap though. The grid slammer also works incredibly well with the JP-2C. I got the flux drive first in hopes of using it with the clean channel on the JP to get a softer crunch tone. A bit too much so I opted for the grid slammer. That worked out better than expected and on CH2 or CH3 it definitely was better than the shred mode. As for the Mark V when using the grid slammer I was able to get my tone closer to what I like with the JP-2C. Will have to try it again with the 12AT7 in place. I found that the grid slammer enhanced the midrange on CH3 of the Mark V. Both the grid slammer and the flux drive are the mark in the box solution for those that do not have one. And a surprise how well they worked with a Mark amp.
Let me ask this, might seem a bit off topic but not really. I have been using the Mark V with 12AT7 in V4 quite a bit these past few days. I thought I smelled something get hot but never noticed much of a change in things. I played on channel one quite a bit last night and noticed something I had not before. I have this set on clean, gain at noon, treble at 10 oclock bass about the same, mid at 9, channel master about 9-10, 90 Watt mode. In a progression I was following with normal open chords, I switched to a power chord (G); and got a bit of a breakup I was not expecting - almost farty sounding or blown speaker type noise. Only happens with power chords - almost anywhere on fretboard. I never really noticed this before changing that tube, and it seems like there could be no relation, especially looking at the tube task chart. Do your amps exhibit the same? I put the 12AX7 back in and the same happens. Maybe I am just being a bit paranoid, but I expected no breakup, regardless of chord type on that clean setting. I just want to make sure I did not hurt the amp in any way. All tubes are original (except V4), in correctly and correct positions. My speaker is good, I have two 1x12's loaded with Emi Man O Wars. It is not the guitar (tried another) or cable, or speaker cable. it may just be a normal characteristic, I do not often play that way or use the clean. Picked notes, or arpeggiated chords or good, it is only with a power chord I notice this. All other channels and modes behave as I would expect.
Markageddon
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2017
- Messages
- 274
- Reaction score
- 1
No its not a part of the tubemod result... could be that you've got one of the others on their way out.... Sounds like time for a tube roll test...! The burning smell I cannot relate to either.... Hmmmmmmm.....
I would check to see where the FX loop send level is at if you are using the loop in active mode for the global master volume and solo. If the send level is on the high side it will cause distortion. Also this may overdrive the speaker depending on the volume settings.
You may have a different preamp tube issue or your power tubes are near end of life if you have not changed them in a while. The Chassis will end up heating up if one of the power tubes is on the onset of red plating.
The only part of V4 that is in all circuits is the V4A portion of the tube which is the reverb driver circuit. The 12AT7 results in a slight reduction of reverb when compared to the 12AX7 tube. It should not be the issue. What 12AT7 were you using. Not all of them are created equal. The JAN/Phillips versions are very robust and probably one of the better tubes still available though it is out of production since 1980. I have used the same tube in V4 since I found out about this concept.
You may have a different preamp tube issue or your power tubes are near end of life if you have not changed them in a while. The Chassis will end up heating up if one of the power tubes is on the onset of red plating.
The only part of V4 that is in all circuits is the V4A portion of the tube which is the reverb driver circuit. The 12AT7 results in a slight reduction of reverb when compared to the 12AX7 tube. It should not be the issue. What 12AT7 were you using. Not all of them are created equal. The JAN/Phillips versions are very robust and probably one of the better tubes still available though it is out of production since 1980. I have used the same tube in V4 since I found out about this concept.
bandit2013 said:
The send level is straight up, active loop. I use a GMajor in the loop, but removed it while "troubleshooting." All tubes are original, except the JAN Phillips 12AT7 in V4; and though it doesn't mean much, because tubes can fail whenever - this amp has not been used much at all. It is a 2014 model. I tried testing with and without reverb "on," and suspected the V4 tube change would not be a factor in this. It may well be normal. Using the settings I have posted, do any of you guys have the same results? If so, then it is probably just an anomaly.
royslead said:
This does not help your issue. I have no issues with the clean channel or CH2. Both sound the same with or with out the 12AT7 in V4. Only difference I have noticed when returning to the 12AX7 is more reverb present at the current settings I have dialed in. Actually seems that there is too much reverb. Other than the PI tube (V7) the only tubes in the circuit path for channel 1 is V1 and V3. (signal path for clean channel is as follows: V1A -> CH1 tone stack -> V1B -> (feed to the reverb driver, return from reverb) V3A -> CH1 Master -> V3B -> GEQ -> FX loop if active boosted by V6B -> V7A/B phase inverter.
What is the gain setting on CH1? This will contribute to clipping if set high enough (I am sure you know that by now) V3 can contribute to distorted clean channel if the tube is past its prime just as much as V1. Characteristic of preamp tubes becoming weak may include several factors such as weak bass, low treble response and distortion. If you are using the 12AT7 in V6 the result will be lower output levels when using the FX loop in active mode compared to the 12AX7. It will not alter the characteristic of the FX loop send levels as that is derived from the GEQ circuit. Effects in the loopp if used will also contribute to compression or distortion of the signal due to the line level of the send circuit. The Mark V is the one black sheep in the FX loop in the Mesa line up as it seems to have an odd impedance. (note that the TC sereis is also a line level but works well with most effects including the lline level shifter, Mark V does not work with the line level shifter as I have tried it with the V and end result was less than satisfactory).
I would elimiate contributors for the distorted clean such as removing the FX in the loop (unplug send and return), feed the amp direct from the guitar. If the distortion characteristic is still present, turn off the FX loop (set to bypass) and use the CH1 master to control the volume. Followed by turning off the GEQ. Your issue could be preamp tube related but it can also be a factor of the power tubes as they begin to fail, the amplified signal will not be clean with a clean signal.
I would look at the manual as there are some diagnostic descriptions of preamp and power tube issues. You can download a manual from Mesa if that makes it easier to find vs taking the manual out of the plastic sleeve it came in. I have all of the manuals downloaded for each amp in my collection even though I have the paper versions that came with the amps. Always good to have the resources available when you want to review them.
Not sure what you’re hearing (of course) but try lowering the GAIN to maybe 10-11 o’clock. With humbuckers (active) I can still get some breakup on the clean channel if the gain is too high. Remember, adding some treble and mid will add back some of the body/gain you may lose with lowring the GAIN knob. If low GAIN makes no difference in what you’re hearing, maybe try tube rolling.
I appreciate the time you guys have given to help me with this. I have played with the amp, having the fx loop bypassed and using the channel master control volume - no change. I had the fx loop on and nothing plugged into it - no change. I did some tube rolling in V1 and V3 - no change. Channel one gain was slightly past Noon, and the guitars I normally play have both: active electronics and hot passive humbuckers. I brought the gain down to 10-11:00, - no change. I switched to my old Strat with single coils- clean, no distortion. I went back to my humbucker equipped guitar, turned the gain down to nearly 8, still had a bit of distortion present. I think I just may have to try some power tubes, but that will have to wait until I can free up some cash to throw at them. For now, I will just deal with it; and not derail this thread any further.
I do not think you are derailing this thread. We all have different experiences with the Mark V and I believe most if not all are willing to help out another Mark V owner. One question I am not sure if it was brought up, what voice are you using on the clean channel. If you are on tweed, that in itself will be running hotter than the Fat or clean voice. It basically acts like a hyper drive for the clean channel and will easily clip into distortion especially with active electronics or hot pickups. Typical signal levels from a guitar are around 750mV with humbuckers and perhaps 500mV with single coils. When actives come into play they may product signal levels around 1.4v. I had taken the liberties to measure peak voltages on a few of my guitars that have active tone controls and sure enough the output was much higher than expected. Considering the strat resulted in no distortion but the actives are causing lack of clarity, it may be the battery in the actives that is in need of replacement. I would start there if your guitar does use a battery. I actually have several guitars with actives. Three Carvin DC400s and one Kiesel DC600 with piezo Floyd Rose bridge. When the guitar signal is less than satisfactory (not often) I generally find the battery to be the cause due to low voltage (less than 8V as it used a 9V battery). Also active electronics can place a dc level on the signal if it is not filtered properly it may pose an issue with signal integrity. Just an observation based on what you said. As for a guitar with hot pickups (overwound or with very strong magnets a similar result may occur without the dc shift on the signal). If you roll back on your volume control on the guitar (equipped with actives) does it clean up or remain distorted. If not, I would check the battery or replace it. Zapping the tip of your tongue is not the best way to measure battery voltage (I am guilty of such myself). When it comes to diagnosing signal losses or distortion effects in a tube amp when clean is expected it is easy to overlook a few things which may not be amp related but something else.
Well, ok - I appreciate that. I am using clean mode on channel one. I probably should change the battery in my Carvin - it is an ST300, with the active/piezo bridge. My other guitar used frequently is a Jackson with the Sustainiac. That is the one with hot pickups - a Hot rails in middle and a JB in bridge. I do not use the electronics (Sustainiac) when playing clean. I should point out the distortion I hear is at the end, as the chord decays. If I play normal, "cowboy" chord progressions, there is very little, if any present. I cannot really make a recording very well, if I use my phone, it may not capture it (or may add it's own to the mix).
royslead said:
IF the ST300 is anything like the Ghost system I have on the DC600, there should be a gain control on the internal circuit board. I had to adjust mine on the DC600 but may increase it again as the piezo sounded more acoustic with a higher setting. As for my Carvin DC400's and one DC200 (all using the latest active tone control module before the model was discontinued) also have a gain control. This really can drive the amp hot if set too high and clean will not be clean. Alost like putting a grid slammer in the mix with a lower gain setting. If you have not noticed, I am a huge Carvin /Kiesel fan and have 9 Carvins and one Kiesel in my collection. Used to have 11 (DC100 but gave it to my nephew). What I ahve noticed with the DC600 ghost system, there is no difinitive tone control (not much in treble cut on the passive lithium pickups), as for the piezo, no tone control what so ever. The piezo just sounds awesome though the fat mode on the clean channel of the Mark V. The odd thing about the Ghost system (not sure if the ST uses it but it may if the bridge is using the graphtech piezo saddles ) is if the battery is dead or removed, the piezo bridge will actually drive the circuit and this will become dominant even if the magnetics are selected. The magnetic pickups actually run through the Ghost system preamp so there is no easy means to get the raw tone of the pup. This piezo system will definately degrade when the battery becomes weak.
That is about as much as I can think of at the moment. If the power tubes were on the way out, the strat would have distorted signal too ( I would think, may need to boost the master control volume a bit more to compensate for the differences, also channel volume as well). Preamp tube generally do not crap out, mostly they begin to get noisy and may pop and crackle a bit, sound dull and lacking the treble.
I wasn't aware of the piezo driving everything on those. I had my ST300 built in 2011, it has GraphTech saddles on a TOM bridge. I had hoped to some day order another with a FLoyd, but My Jackson covers what the ST300 doesn't. I have always been a fan of Carvin, once I discovered them, including their amps. It's too bad they are out now, but that is for another thread. I may have to look in on my board to see, but I think you are right about it having a gain adjustment. The mag pickups in that are hot, too (Holdsworth in the nek and MSD22 in the bridge). I have a couple other guitars that I have yet to run through the amp, something I may enjoy tomorrow.
