Mesa MarkV / Saturation 'mod'

[mace]

thanks for that wayno. That excercise works the muscles it seems (keeping the fretted fingers down as you go). The exercise I mentioned works at independent finger movement and works the tendons. In combination it all good. I’m adding yours to my set of finger stuff.

Also, when you’re alternate picking, don’t forget to start with an upstroke half of the time, so you get just as comfortable with that as starting with a downstroke. And mix up the different accents (eigth notes, triplets, sixteenths etc.). It doesn’t hurt to break out he metronome, set it slow, and to work on keeping time exact also.

I didn’t pay attention to any of this stuff until about 4 years ago. Kind of embarassing after playing for 30 years!

I just did a little test. Put all 5 finger tips on the table like a piano playing position (fingertips perpendicular to the table). Now lift each finger, one at a time, while keeping the other fingers touching the table. Notice how your ring finger just is hard to budge? I can lift my right hand ring finger about 1 mm. My left ring finger gets up about 7-10 mm. That’s how much the independent exercise will help. I used to not be able to move left finger at all like that.

Check out Petrucci’s warm ups at the beginning of his Rock Dicipline video (youtube). lt took me months and months just to able to do them at all (just the ones at the beginning). But it is all helped tremendously.

Oh, and I’m still enjoying a JAN AT7 in V4!

 

[bandit2013]

I like your suggestion Mace. Good idea for practice. Especially for muscle memory of the fingers.

Alternate picking style also helps. I generally practice chords with picking alternate strings in up or down ward motion so I can play any string in the chord individually in any order fast enough it almost sounds like I am finger picking the strings. I am used to playing a 12 string guitar that way as it generates an interesting sound if you do not strike the pairs of strings but the natural or the octave depending if it is a down or upward stroke.

Also a power chord has a different effect if you rake up vs down.

Finger picking, ouch, that I usually mess up all the time. Two good songs to practice for finger picking would be "Kansas Dust in the Wind" or "Led Zeppelin-Stairway to Heaven" They are both easy songs to pick up but to get it to sound right is all in the picking style. Stairway to heaven can be done with a pick but sounds better when picked with individual fingers with the right hand.

Also a power chord has a different effect if you rake up vs down.

Knowing your scales up the fretboard helps with tapping. I keep trying the two hand tap method but does not alway produce good results.

Don't forget to relax. being tense and stressed out will be reflected in your playing. Sure at first it is hard work but once you get it going just relax and enjoy yourself.

Learn to play with 4 fingers, yes, the useless finger that tends to be the shortest and weakest link but good guitar players use it all the time. I am basically a 3 finger player as I have had some injury to the left hand (must have broken the pinky finger a few times but not from playing the guitar). I have been working hard to use the pinky more often other than chording. The more I get that into my playing, It sounds better.

optional but not necessary:
If you need to build on finger strengh, play an acoustic for practice. That may be a bit different than the electric as the string guage is heavier and the strings are not as close to the fretboard.

If you need to strech your spread, get a bass guitar. That is a different animal all together. It can be fun too. I have a 6 string cross-over bass that is similar to standard guitar that I like to practice finger picking style. Stairway to heaven intro is quite interesting when done on Bass. Note that the 6 string bass I am refering to is a short scale not the long scale version. Reference to Ibenez SCR6 or the Fender Journeyman Relic or the Squire Vintage Mod Bass VI. All three are cross-over basses. these have a low E, A, D, G, B, E string. Not like the long scale 6 string bass which I think is B to B as that will throw you off from a standard guitar.

 

[jnoel64]

Back in the 80s, I did the Summer Session thing at GIT. The top 2 things I got out of that experience was: I learned to use my pinky almost as strongly as my ring finger. I don't do many bends with it, but I can if I need to stretch enough for it. The second thing was modes. The hardest thing to do with the scale modes is, once you learn them, FORGET them and just play what you hear in your head - or heart as the case may be. Don't think: ok, now I'm going to do a dorian thing. I discovered that I tended to do more dorian things than anything else, but once I discovered what all that meant, I moved on to other "feelings." If I want to get sinister, play the C scale over an E minor progression. That's phrygian mode and it's wicked in an Egyptian kind of way. But, I don't sit down and think: ok, now I'm going to do a phrygian thing, either. The feeling of the progression can feed the lead notes, and vice versa. It's all about what YOU feel when you play the song, whether you wrote it or not.

I tend to not just sit and play scales when I practice. I probably should to keep my muscle memory in shape. Instead, I play whole songs. I like to work with different rhythms to change the feel of a song, and then I will hear different lead tones in my head and work on those. It doesn't always work, lol!

I am not and never will be a shredder. I'm good with that. But, if I can feel a song and play what I feel, that just makes my day. If only I were more successful with that than not. I don't make enough time to spend as much as I would like with my instruments. That's totally on me.

When I did do the chromatic thing, I would do something very similar as what Wayno and Mace said. My only difference being that I would start on the low E, say at the 5th fret and climb up to the 8th fret, but then move to the A string on the 6th fret, complete those 4 notes, then the D string on the 7th fret....G string on the 8th fret...B string on the 8th fret, and high E string on the 9th fret. Then, work them all backwards, each time using alternate picking. Kinda makes me tired just thinking about it.

 

[APEMAN]

-

 

[bandit2013]

I tried to work on what you suggested Mace. It is much harder to do, especially trying to get past old habits. I keep lifting my pinky out of the way. No, there is no tea in that chord, put the pinky down you fool. :shock: Need to work it out and hope for the best. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Wayno]

I tried to work on what you suggested Mace. It is much harder to do, especially trying to get past old habits. I keep lifting my pinky out of the way. No, there is no tea in that chord, put the pinky down you fool. :shock: Need to work it out and hope for the best. Thanks for the tip.

It's a long, slow, bumpy lonely Road unfortunately. Keep it up though and it's pretty much guaranteed to work. After roughly three weeks now of regular one hour a night "exercise" I found band practise last night much better. Both tonally and fatigue wise. Still nowhere near perfect but definitely going in the right direction. Also shortened my strap a fair bit too. No longer down by my knees James Hetfield style. Feels a bit Beatles but I'll get used to it.

Still rocking V4 and 6 and it sounds really great. A much better balance for the whole band. Took the Jackson Dinky to practice last night and she sang. Always struggled to get enough beef out of it before so always stuck with the Schecter and Les Paul. If only I could afford to upgrade the stock Jackson pups it would be an animal of a guitar. Also tried to record a bit for you guys but the volume crapped out my phone mic. Will try again next week if I can.

 

[bandit2013]

I am back to using a 12AT7 in V4. This seems to refine the drive stage just enough that the amp sounds better. I am also running a set of Reds (STR440) in the power section. I used to think that the Red color code was a description of its operating mode (red plate) since that is all I used to get with Mesa tubes. That problem got resolved a while ago and discussion how I got there is taboo as it relates to a minor adjustment on the fixed bias circuit. Since the combo does not have an MC90 in it, I could get the bias back to stock as the speaker I have in the amp will not be immediately destroyed. Last time I restored the bias back to where it belongs I blew out the MC90 speaker I had bought to sell the amp. To be honest, that did not change the tone of the amp at all but did increase the peak output to 150W. It was actually pegging the RMS meter on the attenuator I use for recording purposes. No wonder why I kept red plating tubes when I was going through the Mark V woes early on. Perhaps my amp would benefit from an adjustable bias. Also would need a bias probe if that were the case. I should get one anyways. One place that would not be useable would be with the JP-2C as there is barely any room to get the power tubes into the amp, let alone tubes plugging into a bias probe socket. No need to do anything to the JP as that is (to me) the ideal Mark amp. I keep loosing interest in the Mark V and I keep finding myself back at square one, disappointed. Sooner or later I will have resolve which could only mean one thing, no more Mark V. Still, with the 12AT7 on board I am more satisfied with the end result which seems to keep my interest in the amp to some extent. Well, that is until I power up the JP-2C or the TC-50, even the TC-100, Roadster or RA100 I get back into loosing interest in the V. I have played through some other Mark V amps a while back and those sounded much better. Was tempted to sell the V and get another one but for now I would be better off waiting for the Mark VI if that will ever be a reality. Sorry this is more depressing than exiting to read. I sort of envy you if your V is more rewarding to you than mine is to me. It is all good, just have to leave it as is. No more mods, speakers, tubes, or the like as I know what I am striving for which is not obtainable with the Mark V I currently have. I think when that time comes to pass, my Mark V will become a hand-me down more than a throw away. I could sell it but I would feel guilty taking money for a product that performs this poorly. Perhaps I thought it was awesome to start but then again I did not know what awesome really was at that time. Now I do and that is not what I am getting with my Mark V.

 

[bandit2013]

I think I did mention on several occasions or posts that I have a love/hate relationship with my Mark V. Too bad really, the amp does have potential.

 

[Markageddon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfhm5-eebfM

Played live with the 90w on Saturday. It really ripped it. Got a lot of good feedback. Used the 2x12 recto. Crunch, Mark IV. FC loop/output on, triode, variac Still got the V4 in. It tweeted, purred, sang, screamed, ate lightning and crapped thunder all night. I wasn't feeeling it much before playing, but when those 1st chords kicked in, that oneness with it and inspiration that 'that' tone will bring out in you just took off and I was having a blast.

Sorry to hear you're not getting the joy from yours mate. Grim. And a shame as you've worked hard on this.

 

[bandit2013]

No problem. I blame it all on the JP-2C. There is still hope though as I changed all of the preamp tubes and found something enjoyable. Have a few tweaks to try out and see what happens. Also will have to blame the TC-50 and TC-100 as well. The Mark V still has its use and it blends well with the other amps. For some reason or another, I feel the Mark V is a bit far off from the norm in tone. I tried it with V30 loaded cabs and cannot find any pleasing tones. EV speakers helps a bit, OTR cuts the brittleness, Celestion Crème 90W Alnico was a godsend temporary thing (too bad I burned the voice coil on that speaker, should never have plugged in the JP-2C at full power as it pushes out more than the rated 100W, peaks at 140Wrms, come to think about it the Mark V has peak power ratings that are similar and the peak power is 110Wrms. After restoring the bias point to where it should be it was pushing 150W peak and I killed the MC90 in the combo :shock: no wonder why I kept red plating tubes from the start in 2012. Should have sent it in for the issues but the SED =C= 6L6GC were happy in that amp. Only reason I changed the bias point was to use the Mesa tubes. Swapped the 82k resistor with a 91k resistor (measures at 89k, raises the negative bias voltage, note it will never be at -51V as on the schematic unless you are using variac power mode, confirmed with oscilloscope and DVM) and it sounds good but not a recommended thing to do if your amp is not continually failing due to burning up tubes).

I shared a few ideas with the OP and will see how things turn out. My be interesting but not sure if it can be shared openly like I did with the removal of C39 Sorry Wayno for the issues this may have caused you. I am glad you got that up an running. I forgot did you get a report on what the issue was? I can look back a few pages to remind me.

 

[Markageddon]

Sometimes 'if it ain't broke...' has to kick in.
But if it actually is, have you considered buying another Mark V of a more recent ilk?
(Yours was a 1st or close to 1st rev amp, was it not...? )

 

[bandit2013]

Sometimes 'if it ain't broke...' has to kick in.
But if it actually is, have you considered buying another Mark V of a more recent ilk?
(Yours was a 1st or close to 1st rev amp, was it not...? )

It was close enough. April 2012 so that would be 2 years in the running. Not sure if it was in the time period they had issues with the diodes. Screen resistors, definate. JFETS yep.
If and when I feel I need to sell the Mark V, and if I replace it with another Mark series amp, I would consdier something else than the tired chassis and wait for the next model to come out. Who knows, if the next model that is released is the RK3 I may get that instead.

I still have to say one thing, the Mark V saturation mod is one trick that kept me from selling the amp in the first place. For the moment though, the amp will be pushed aside, not pushed over, but out of sight in the studio. That seems to be where amps go to die as whatever is in that room does not get the use it deserves. It will keep my drum set, Roadster half stack and bass gear company. Sometimes it is good to set something aside and go back to it later.

 

[Markageddon]

Sometimes 'if it ain't broke...' has to kick in.
But if it actually is, have you considered buying another Mark V of a more recent ilk?
(Yours was a 1st or close to 1st rev amp, was it not...? )

It was close enough. April 2012 so that would be 2 years in the running. Not sure if it was in the time period they had issues with the diodes. Screen resistors, definate. JFETS yep.
If and when I feel I need to sell the Mark V, and if I replace it with another Mark series amp, I would consdier something else than the tired chassis and wait for the next model to come out. Who knows, if the next model that is released is the RK3 I may get that instead.

I still have to say one thing, the Mark V saturation mod is one trick that kept me from selling the amp in the first place. For the moment though, the amp will be pushed aside, not pushed over, but out of sight in the studio. That seems to be where amps go to die as whatever is in that room does not get the use it deserves. It will keep my drum set, Roadster half stack and bass gear company. Sometimes it is good to set something aside and go back to it later.

Oh I agree. A bit of time and perspective works wonders...along with it having what it takes to roll with with tastes in tone, dialling tactics and mentalities behind various choices...requirements you have for styles at different times...different mixes with different bands with different sounds. The versatility of the V is just strength to strength the more things you apply it to.
The love may come again.

 

[bandit2013]

The love may come again.

Only if I loose the current one and get another.

Time to take the amp apart and see what a few changes will do. I may booger it up but anything that improves the tone would be ideal as this ain't no boogie to booger with. However after experimenting earlier it does not seem all that difficult but highly not recommended for anyone to mess with.

 

[Angle Loss]

The love may come again.

Only if I loose the current one and get another.

Time to take the amp apart and see what a few changes will do. I may booger it up but anything that improves the tone would be ideal as this ain't no boogie to booger with. However after experimenting earlier it does not seem all that difficult but highly not recommended for anyone to mess with.

I'd love to know what you come up with. I like the C39 mod, but still feel it could use a little something more.

 

[bandit2013]

I have not done much of anything at the moment. The CH3 tone stack, V6A circuit and GEQ may need some tweaks. The only thing that stuck out was C39 between the different models that use the same circuit (IIC+, III and IV).

 

[bandit2013]

Many thanks to APEMAN with his suggestion I found the cure for the Mark V blues. This does tie into the GEQ cap as well as the IIC+ mode and the end result blew me away. I compared the mod with the JP-2C each running through identical cabs. The Mark V is a bit brighter but not by much and definitely kicks with the big guns. This one does require a solder iron and is removable if you so desire to attempt. Also I wanted to keep the parts already installed as is. So no cutting out a part but the soldering can be a bit tricky.

NOTICE: THIS IS NOT FOR BEGINNERS OR OTHERS WHO DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ELECTRIONICS OR HOW THEY WORK. THIS AMP OR ANY TUBE AMP HAS THE POTENTIAL TO KILL YOU IF YOU ARE POKING AROUND INSIDE. LARGE ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITORS WILL STORE HIGH VOLTAGE FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME AND CAN BE CONSIDERED LETHAL. ANY MODS TO YOUR AMP WILL IMMEDIATELY VOID YOUR WARRANTY. ELECTRICAL SHORTS OR SOLDERING TO THE INCORRECT LOCAITON COULD RESLUT IN COMPONENT FAILURE OR TOTAL LOSS OR USE OF THE AMPLIFIER, LOSS OF YOUR HANDS, EYES, OR OTHER OBJECT OF THE BODY INCLUDING HEART FAILURE MAY RESULT. THIS IS NO JOKE SO PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE THINKING YOU CAN DO THIS JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN SWAP A GUITAR PICKUP OR SPEAKER AND SOLDER A FEW WIRES. YOU DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK! THIS MOD MAY NOT WORK ON EARLIER MODELS PRIOR TO 2010. ALL WORK IN THE FOLLOWING SEGMENT WAS PERFORMED ON A 2012 MARK V BY SKILLED AND SEASONED ELECTRICAL ENGINEER. THE MARK V IS VERY COMPLEX DUE TO ITS DESIGN AN LIMITED WORKSPACE BETWEEN COMPONENTS. PARTS ARE NOT CLEARLY MARKED AND REFERENCE DESIGNATORS ARE HIDDEN UNDER THE COMPONENT. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE TO CONFRIM THE CONNECTIONS FIRST BEFORE APPLYING ANY POWER TO THE AMP. IF THIS IS SOMEHTING YOU WANT DONE, BUT DO NOT HAVE THE SKILLS TO DO SO, SEEK PROFESSIONAL ASSISTANCE AND PAY AN EXPERT TO DO IT FOR YOU.


If you like the way your amp sounds with just the 12AT7 swap in V4 and or V6, do not read any further.


The credit goes to APEMAN on this one but I added a few things so you can remove the mod if you wish to do so. To correct the GEQ or the IIC+ mode, one trick is to add a 3.3k resistor to C99 and C49. There will be some cutting here though, but though the silicone adhesive blob that prevents C99 from vibration and is glued to the inductor array next to V5. The resistor should be soldered to the negative terminal of the 10uF cap (located out of view and is under the C99 cap, reason to cut the clue to get to the C49 terminal). The other end of the resistor needs to be soldered to the C99. Once you have the resistor soldered into place, confirm the body of the resistor is not touching the metal twist tab on the V5 tube socket. I placed a dab of silicone adhesive to isolate the resistor body from the sharp metal tab. Then move the C99 back into its original position and secured it with some more silicone adhesive. clear adhesive only. This helps regain some of that beef the IIC+ has, just as much as the JP-2C. The next mod really does the trick in making the Mark V on par or better than the JP-2C.
Fix for GEQ capacitor:

The next mod improved all three voices and definitely made the IIC+ voice on par with the JP-2C. Mark IV mode is almost insane and the Extreme mode never sounded better. For this mod I used a 150ohm resistor to couple the 15uF cap (C42) to the pair of 2.2uF caps (C104 and C106) that are used as cathode bypass caps on V6A. C42 is closer to V5 than V6 and seems a bit offset and the 2.2uF caps are close to the cathode of V6A triode. However by chance I found the via that connects the 2.2uf pair to the RMY7 relay which by coincidence is very close to the 15uF cap (C42). I formed the leads on the resistor and cut to proper length before soldering. One leg into the via and the other to the 15uF negative terminal as shown. (I actually did this mod before the GEQ mod and was amazed at the result). I feel the 12AT7 still sounds better in V4 than the 12AX7 so it will remain. Reason for the resistor, I did not want the full effect of 19uF active all the time. The resistor adds impedance to one or the other when the RMY7 changes state when using IIC+ mode or the other two. I am using the stock 12AX7 in V5 and V6. What a beast the extreme voice turns into which has improved bottom end. Actually I found the bottom end on all three voices have become much tighter in character. I was disappointed before the mod feeling that the amp sounded a bit loose and near flub. Now it is on Par with the JP-2C if not better.

 

[bandit2013]

I determined a better resistor value to use for the IIC+ GEQ correction. Instead of the 3.3k resistor, a 2.2k resistor would retain the shunt impedance to ground at 10K ohms. Which is the parallel impedance of the combined resistors 100k and (2.2k in series with 10k) that would be in the circuit at that location in IIC+ voice and 9k ohms for the rest. In essence you wind up with the .22uF and 10uF in parallel. This does not seem to pose any issues with the other channels and enhances the IIC+ characteristics. The huge change is with the 15uF and 4.4uF caps that bypass the cathode resistor on V6A. IIC+ mode switches to the 4.4uF and the other two voices use the 15uF cap. You could probably just use a wire jumper and get good results as the added capacitance did not make the Mark IV or Extreme voice muddy which is what I expected to happen. It actually improved the bass response considerably. Of course this is also related to the removal of C39 on V4B. Now since I have some tubes that are non-stock in the preamp (V1,V3 are Beijing square getter Chinese tubes, old Mesa 12AX7A and V4 is a JAN/Phillips 12AT7) I will have to conclude with changing the non-stock tubes back to the Mesa current 12AX7 and see what happens. Earlier I had found the Mesa tubes in V1 and V3 darkened the tone along with added brittleness but this was prior to any of the tweaks made. I will see what the end result is today.

The comment about making the Mark V sound like the JP-2C, it is very close but not identical since the power tube section is simul-class there is more treble in the characteristic but not harsh or overburdened. Note definition is about the same, Dynamic response is on par (first time I noticed a backing off on the guitar volume the signal cleaned up similar to the JP-2C, before it was just the same character but just lower in volume actually fizzy is a good term, The TC series do not clean up as well so to me the mod was worth the effort to experiment). One last note on the mod (if one is so eager to do it) it is completely reversible. No cutting or removal of parts were needed to achieve the end result (except the C39 removal but that may not be necessary, I just found that 120pF cab connected from grid to cathode robbed some tone and sterilized the character of CH3). Last night I removed the OTR speaker and replaced it with the EV black label speaker in the combo. Holy cow, my opinion on the EV has changed. I did like it before but I thought it made the amp sound sterile, it was not the speaker by any means as now the amp sounds alive and full of dynamic response I would expect from a Mark series amp. Also I was considering dumping the Mark V and moving on. With thanks to APEMAN, that all has changed now. I know this is not going very far and most if any will attempt this..... That is okay with me. You were warned early on that making mods or altering the circuits (including replacing a bad part with same part, which I would assume would include changing a bad pot with replacement part from Mesa would void your warranty unless you are a Mesa certified tech, the mod itself is a void in warranty even if a tech did it unless it was confirmed by Mesa to perform this task). Perhaps I got a Lemon and with no doubt I did. Now it has reached a different status in my mind, or at least closer to ideal. Assuming I assign the JP-2C as the benchmark, the Mark V with mod is **** close if not better now than it was with just the 12AT7 in V4 alone and nothing else. One last thing (count how many times I state this) yesterday was the first time I ever enjoyed the Mark V though a V30 loaded cabinet. Keep in mind it was the Mark V that made me hate the V30 speaker. It was the other amps that made me embrace it. Too bad I sold the head shell and turned my V into a combo as the current state the amp is in now would be awesome on top of any of my V30 loaded cabs. I may just have to get another one, but I digress as I want to see what is coming next as I would rather have a midi controlled format and some other features not currently available with the Mark V.

 

[Wayno]

No apologies Bandit, I am solely responsible for the mishap I had with the C39 mod, me and me alone.

As for this new development, aaaaahhhhhhh Bandit what are you doing to me??? You just know I'm going to try this at some point

Haha looking forward to that!

Glad you're back in the love camp though. I'll be gutted to not here your escapades in this Mark V forum if you ever do turn away from the dark side.

I have tried a coupling cap mod before but didn't get great results, hadn't thought of jumping them together though, good idea. One idea I did have was to try to disable the relay that switches this part of the circuit ( RYM7 I believe). Could also possibly do this for the bypass caps relay too. But when I thought about it some more the easiest way to achieve this would be to find and disable the M7 relay feed from the switching circuit but to disable both relays would turn iic+ mode into a clone of iv mode, pointless.

Do like the idea of your resistive jumpers though. Given that each channel retains its character as it were.

 

[bandit2013]

Wayno, since you just got your amp back and up and running, leave it as is. You do not want to go though that again, or do you? The mod is simple but yet is it necessary.

I did the V6A mod first and that effect was huge (made MKIV and EXtreme much better and improved the IIC+) I do not believe there was much to gain with the GEQ mod but once I found where the components were, why not try it, so I did.

I can delete the post, if others think I should i will do just that.