Lonestar Special - preamp tube replacements

[timmerel]

Having gone with JJ EL84s for power tubes, I'm thinking about preamp tubes for my Lonestar Special. I'm aiming for as much clean, sweet headroom as possible on channel one and as smooth and vocal an overdrive as possible on channel 2. I have several questions:

- What would be the ideal tubes for what I'm after?
- Are Mullards as good as billed, and are they worth the money? Best price I've seen so far is £70 for 2 here in the UK. If anyone knows of any cheaper sources, please let me know.
- Should I go for 12AX7/ECC83 tubes for everything, or use different tubes in different locations (e.g. a 12AT7 or 5751 for reverb driver/phase inverter)?
- Any other suggestions?

Many thanks.

 

[tiger roach]

Based on what I have read here and elsewhere, I'm looking at NOS RCA 5751's for my V1 and V2, and maybe the reverb as well. Some sort of balanced NOS 12ax7 for the phase inverter.

I haven't ordered anything yet so I will hold back a while and see what develops in this thread...

 

[Guitarzan]

+1 to above. You can also get them at Groove Tube. I have also seen them at Vacuum Tube Valley. Their getting pricey, get them while you can!

 

[Timbre Wolf]

I'm aiming for as much clean, sweet headroom as possible on channel one and as smooth and vocal an overdrive as possible on channel 2. I have several questions:

- What would be the ideal tubes for what I'm after?
- Are Mullards as good as billed, and are they worth the money?

For "clean, sweet headroom" I'd recommend NOS Tesla E83CC (not JJ!) - great clarity and cleans from this late-breakup, low-microphonics frame-grid tube.

For "smooth and vocal overdrive" I'd recommend NOS RFT ECC83 - these don't clean up well, but they overdrive very easily (early breakup) for singing leads. I find that RFTs lack definition in both their lows and high frequencies, but the "rounded off" frequency spectrum is suitable to higher volume, mid-heavy lead work.

As for Mullards: there are several different versions of Mullard 12AX7, all of which are good. But I find the older, '50s long-plate (halo-getter) to be the one I prefer for outstanding clarity and articulation, lively dynamics, inspiring frequency extension (solid lows through airy highs) and versatility. I could recommend it for either cleans, or for overdrive. I especially appreciate the way these long-plate Mullards' lows bark with authority. Short-plate Mullards leave me shrugging, and wondering what all the fuss is about, and I'd rather recommend a Tungsram ECC83 for a similar, but somewhat improved version of Mullard's short-plate 12AX7A.

I have heard wonderful reviews of the new Russian "Tung-Sol" 12AX7 (which is not a "reissue" of the original NOS Tung-Sol), but have no direct experience with these yet - you may want to check them out.

I do recommend being open to mixing brands of 12AX7, and considering 12AT7 or 5751 alternatives. To see how I've done this with my Triaxis, check out this thread.

One piece of advice about NOS tubes and pricing: I recommend trying out samples that are used, but test as new. They sell for less, and if you really like what you hear, you can spring for the more costly new, truly NOS tubes later. Also note that one can easily spend lots more money on unsatisfying new-production tubes, in search for what a single-purchase NOS could achieve, then end up going NOS anyway. Choose your strategy!

Please report back on what you learn!

- T

 

[timmerel]

Many thanks - sounds like you like the Mullards across the board. So would these be long or short plate Mullards?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2pcs-MULLARD-ECC83s_W0QQitemZ5750123993QQcategoryZ39997QQcmdZViewItem

I've seen others for crazy prices.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

I don't really like Mullards across the board, since I use many different tubes in several different amps - whatever best suits a tube position. Perhaps I misunderstood you, though, and it is true that I could be happy with long-plate Mullard 12AX7s for clean and for lead use.

You can buy used, test-good versions of the long-plate/halo-getter Mullard (these have either f91 or f92 type etch codes: f91 is older, and has two getter halo support rods) for a reasonable price at SND Tubes. I've done business there, and do recommend them.

I don't think the eBay photo you linked to is for long-plate Mullards. In fact, without being able to see the etch codes, it is difficult to confirm that it is a true Mullard at all. Those boxes are certainly faked, so that doesn't make me trust that seller.

Etch codes are two lines of 3-4 characters, near the bottom of the tube. Mullard 12AX7s, that I'm describing, will read f91 or f92 on the upper line, and the second line will begin with B8 or B9.

I have been able to buy f91 or f92 Mullards on eBay for $20 or less, but you're taking a bigger risk than if you buy from an established dealer. Still, if you know what you're looking for, and you're patient, you may get lucky on eBay. On the other end of the economic spectrum, the Vacuum Tube Valley tubes are supremely tested and undoubtedly fine quality, but outrageously overpriced - I have never paid anywhere near the prices they charge for tubes.

Don't necessarily fixate on these Mullards. I do believe they're one of the best, for my taste, but there are other stellar tubes as well. Long gray-plate GE,RCA, CBS and Tung-Sol NOS 12AX7s are also excellent, and are usually a bit less expensive. And if you favor earlier breakup characteristics (which I do sometimes, depending on the circuit), I highly recommend looking into '50s black-plate tubes such as RCA, Raytheon or KenRad (but not Sylvania - a fine tube, but not "early-breakup").

By the way, if you're really serious about getting the best out of your amp by re-tubing it, I would recommend looking into some EL84 that will allow the clarity and response to come through better than JJs do. JJs are okay, but there are better to be had.

- T

 

[timmerel]

Thanks again for the explanation.

I think I'm more confused now though - as I want Channel 1 to be sweet and have more headroom (does this means later breakup?), and Channel 2 to give me smooth, singing overdrive without any grit in it (does this mean earlier breakup?) and there are 5 tubes to replace, what would you suggest by position for:

V1 CH2 Drive Stage and Input Gain Stage
V2 2nd and 3rd Gain Stage
V3 FX Loop Send and Return
V4 Reverb Return and Drive
V5 Phase Inverter/Driver

The Mullard focus was because I was told they were the best, but it looks like there is a lot more to it than that. I guess I'm after the best tubes for the job, whether they are expensive or cheap - they don't have to be a particular brand.

In terms of guitar tone, I like the sort of noises made by Dave Gilmour, SRV, Santana, Johnny Winter, BB King, Ry Cooder, Jimmy Vaughan, and Robben Ford amongst others - I also like Robert Johnson, but use my National for that! I'm not looking for Steve Vai, Joe Satriani or metal territory in terms of tone, nor am I hoping to sound exactly like anybody else.

Which EL84s do you recommend?

 

[Timbre Wolf]

I think I understand the source of confusion: it is because of the dual-purpose for the V1 tube - it is the clean input, and the channel 2 drive stage. And yes, late-breakup=more headroom, and vice-versa.

I think I would recommend the long-plate Mullard, over the Tesla E83CC, for V1, as the Mullard does both duties with style. Make sure you get a long-plate Mullard that has been tested for microphonics, as this can be a sensitive position, especially in a combo. And I'd still recommend the RFT ECC83 for V2.

I'm completely on the same page as you, as far as tonal inspiration. In fact, Gilmour's playing has haunted me and influenced me for three decades (!) now.

Here are my educated guesses for the other tubes:

V3 something lively and tonally balanced. This could be the Tesla E83CC, but that may have too much clean high gain (not high gain in the overdrive sense, but you don't want to overdrive the circuit immediately following this tube). A lower-gain, excellent clarity and tonally balanced 12AX7 option here would be a '50s Sylvania black-plate 12AX7 - superb tubes, and not too pricey. For a slightly lower-gain sub, I'd try any '50s black-plate 5751, and I tend to prefer 3-mica versions, and of those, I like RCA the best.

V4 I tend to like a darker, more liquid reverb, and for a 12AX7 I'd recommend '50s GE long-plates. Might also try an early '80s Mullard CV4024/12AT7WA.

V5 '80s Mullard CV4024/12AT7WA

These are just off-the-cuff recommendations. In reality, it takes a bit of experimentation to really optimize your amp. I find it quite useful to have a stash of tube options available, and the ones I named above are a very fine set of "characters" to have lurking about for this purpose. So even if you don't end up using them as I've said, I honestly believe they're worth the investment. You probably have more than one amp, and what doesn't work in one amp can often work in another amp. PM me with your email address if you'd like me to send you a document where I've attempted to describe the characteristics of many NOS (and a few current-production) preamp tubes.

As for EL84, there's one big issue: getting tubes with the correct rating for your amp. I believe Mike at KCA can do this for you, as can Doug at Doug's Tubes, and perhaps Jim McShane as well. You'd have to inquire with the last two sellers about EL84 you want, but which may not be posted on their sites. I recommend them all as very helpful resources.

EL84 can be early- or late-breakup as well, with some variation, based on the biasing. Probably the best deal I can recommend are the Tesla (not JJ) EL84 from KCA - great pricing, good matching to the amp, and these are very clear and clean sounding tubes, with late-breakup characteristics. Downside is that they can be somewhat bright and "hard" for some tastes. On the other side of the spectrum, old black-plate Sylvania 6BQ5 are early-breakup, and a little darker sounding. I've gotten some excellent sets of these from Doug's Tubes. Both these options will give you more clarity than the JJs, which, though good, sound fairly murky in comparison.

The most stellar clarity I've heard from an EL84 was from '50s square-getter Amperex Bugle Boys. Sparkly clear, without becoming harsh in any way. Good luck affording those, though. Mullard EL84 are highly regarded, and I find them to be very good, especially for their low-mids, but they can be too bright too. Nobody seems to talk about RCA black-plate 6BQ5 which I've found to be another superb option: bright, clear, lively, with late-breakup.

In my Mesa 20/20 amp, I use Tungsram EL84. I find these to have wonderful clarity and great growly lows - much like the Mullards, but a tad less bright on the upper-mids. They're much more affordable, too. I've bought many quads (stocking up: they last a long time) from Zeitmann Tubes, whom I recommend highly as well. These guys are in Hungary, but don't let that stop you - they have top-rated service, and are very trustworthy. You can keep an eye out for them on eBay as "Zeitmann" or buy direct.

Okay, so this is a very long-winded reply. Hope you find it useful, no matter which way you go. And I hope you don't end up cursing my name when all your money is tied up in NOS tubes! :lol:

- T

 

[Russ]

I agree with Timbre wolf. Mullard is a good choice for V1 but don't waste your money loading your amp with them. There are many good choices for the other positions. Your best bet is to get a handful of different tubes and try them in different positions to find the mix you like. I like the GE and RCA long plates also but they do have the long plate tendency to want to go microphonic. Tesla (original) are nice, RFT, Telefunken, Amperex, and Sylvania are also nice tubes. Look at the plate structures. Different plate types and colors make different sounds. Look at the getters. Different getter types will yield different sounds also. The micas will add stability and control microphonics a little. Grid posts will vary from tube to tube. You will find some more to your liking than others also. I wouldn't worry about the actual pins so much as the other parts I mentioned above. Rebrands/ unbranded can be ok at a cheaper price provided you know what you are looking at as long as they have been screened. Try to buy from reputable dealers. There are too many schmucks selling crap for way too much out there, especially on e-bay. Sometimes it is better to spend a few more dollars to know what you are getting from a reputable vendor. Remember this... your tubes will eventually burn up so do not waste your money buying high dollar treasures or paying too much for tubes with relatively no life left to them. You might buy a few at a cheap price just to taste their flavor though. This way it is not that big of a loss if you don't like them. There are positions you can always use them in that are less critical and less tone affecting if you decide to go ahead an use them just because you bought them.

 

[Mick]

Hey Guys, got my LSS 4 months ago and have tried a few tube combos since the stock V5 took a dump the 2nd time I tried to play thru the amp.

1st try was all JJ's (12AX7's and EL84's) due to info obtained on this board. Overall sound was more to my liking but like Timmerel, I was looking for all the clean I could get in ch 1 and a real smooth breakup in ch 2. (also got a pissy taste in my mouth due to one of the JJ pre amp tubes cracking around the pins and the vendor blaming me saying that it probably happened when I replaced the metal cap on the tube. When I told him I didn't replace the cap at that point it took 2 more calls and 17 days to get a replacement)

Next step was about 6 wks ago I started lurking at the board for Dr, Z amps (several models also use 12ax7's and EL 84's) and bought 2 NOS Tesla 12ax7's( $45 ea,) for V1 & V2 and a quad of NOS Tesla EL84's($110 for 4) from Mike at http://www.kcanostubes.com The LSS now sounded better than I ever imagined. I mean I liked it with the stock tubes and the JJ's but the Teslas opened up a whole new deal.

After reading some more stuff from some guy named Myles who I think works for Groove tubes I wanted to clean up ch 1 just a bit more and called Mike at KCANOS tubes and bought 3 NOS JAN GE 5751's for $18 bucks apiece planning to put them in V1, V2, and V5. Mike told me to try them 1 at a time in the different positions to be able to tell which tube is affecting which sound.
1st tried a 5751 in V1 with the Tesla 12ax7 in V2 and JJ12ax7 in V5 and it kinda killed the chimey clean in ch1 that I like so I switched the 5751 to V2 and the tesla 12ax7 back to V1 and BANG! Sweet creamy chime, both channels now do what I could always hear in my head but couldn't quite get 'till now. Also, the distortion is so smooth and really responds to variations in pick attack. I'm not changing anything else, I got the toe tappin'est twang that I could ever hope for! I did however put one of the 5751's in the V5 and while it wasn't a drastic change, I like it better than the 12ax7 JJ.

All my playing here was done with 2 G&L ASAT's. One semi hollow and one solid body. Also, play mostly blues or blues based, raw, roots kinda this and that and have been doing so for 40 yrs give or take. Hope this helps somebody who's deciding whether or not to start playing with differen't tube combinations. I look at it this way. I already spent close to 2 grand on the amp so what's a couple more hundred to dial it in?

Note to Timmerel, I'm into the tones of most of the artists you listed and have no qualms recomending the tube combo I wound up with, Also, I have NO financial interest in any tube vendors mentioned or not, Later.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

Nice to hear of your tone success, Mick. And I'm glad Mike Kropotkin helped you so much in achieving it.

Look, I know I'm a NOS tube enabler, and I apologize for spurning you and others on to spend more money (also no affiliation with tube sellers), but I feel compelled to tell you that you can improve still from the '70s/'80s JAN GE 5751. '50s black-plate 5751 are much more lively and articulate, in my experience.

I do appreciate the Tesla E83CC you mentioned - its got nice sparkly clarity, as do the Tesla EL84. Can't hurt to make a good thing better!! And inspired playing is what this is all about.

Cheers!

- T

 

[kulibu]

Thank you guys for the NOS recommendations, and special thanks to Timber Wolf!

After a rather limited testing with various tubes my setup is now like this:
V1 Mullard ECC83 long plate
V2 Mullard ECC83 short plate
V3 Philips Miniwatt ECC83
V4 General Electric JAN 5751
V5 Mullard 12AT7WA / CV4024

Tungsram EL84

The sound is much more open, with better dynamics and a tighter (but really full) bass. For my taste the improvement is even more pronounced on channel 2, where I can now get those crunchy/medium gain sounds that I had been missing with the standard tube set. Among the valves listed above, the Mullards in V1 and V2 made the biggest difference. I can support Timber Wolf's statement that the long plate Mullard is superior to the short plate ECC83, there is more transparency and more reaction to picking dynamics. I also have the impression that with the Mullards in V1 and V2, my LSS cleans up more nicely when reducing the volume at the guitar.

Again, thanks a lot for helping me to get such an improvement!!

kulibu

 

[Timbre Wolf]

Right on!!

Glad to hear of your success and enthusiasm, Kulibu. Hope it continues to make your playing more fun!!

- T

 

[Mick]

Messin' around last nite with the reverb/V4. Had a JJ 12ax7 to start with which I replaced with one of my NOS JAN GE 5751's and really had a tough time hearing any difference. Took that out and tried one of the NOS Tesla 12ax7's and I really can't hear a noticeable difference between them. No problem though, the LSS has excellent reverb IMO and I'll be saving a few $ by running the JJ's or stock Mesa tubes in V4. Anybody else have similar experience or am I ready for a membership in the "Tin ear club"?

Didn't have time but I wanted to try swapping the JJ 12ax7 in the V3. I don't use any effects but I keep the loop open for the solo feature. Will different tubes in this position have a noticeable result for most people?

Any and all opinions welcome.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

Messin' around last nite with the reverb/V4.

Will different tubes in this position have a noticeable result for most people?

The reverb driver valve is probably the least likely to have a perceptible impact when swapping tubes. Unless you're really a reverb freak, with reverb set waaaay too high (at least for my taste). Any other (active) preamp tube position is likely to have a greater potential sonic impact.

Is the Tesla a E83CC (short, frame grid), or ECC803S (long-plate) version? Either way, this would be a very good candidate for your first input tube.

- T

 

[Mick]

Messin' around last nite with the reverb/V4.

Any other (active) preamp tube position is likely to have a greater potential sonic impact.

Is the Tesla a E83CC (short, frame grid), or ECC803S (long-plate) version? Either way, this would be a very good candidate for your first input tube.

- T

Is the FX loop an active pre amp position?

My Teslas are marked E83CC with the #32 below the E83CC and I currently have one in V1 and one of the 5751's in V2 and am really having a tough time getting a lousy sound out of this amp. Also have one of the 5751's in V5. Thanks for the input.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

[ I mistakenly applied Triaxis tube lore to the LSS here; this info applies to the Triaxis V5 only. Sorry guys - total flubmummery on my part]

I would not recommend using a 5751 in V5, unless you're experiencing audible clipping on the FX loop. V5 receives the return from the FX loop, but it is also the master output. Dropping the gain level on the master out will make it so you have to turn your power amp up, and any preamp circuit noise will also be more amplified.

Compare the noise level, at same room volumes, when using a 5751 in V5, vs. a 12AX7 (or 12BZ7), and I think you'll hear what I mean.

- T

 

[Mick]

Still experimenting. Now my tube set up in the LSS looks like this.

V1 NOS Tesla E83CC
V2 NOS JAN GE 5751(had this in V1 but I like it in V2 better)
V3 New mfg Tung Sol 12ax7
V4 New mfg Tung sol 12ax7
V5 NOS Phillips/Sylvania 12AT7
Power tubes are a quad of NOS Tesla EL84's

Haven't tried it with humbuckers yet but is great for clean to smooth distortion tones with the single coils in my ASAT's.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

I'll bet your LSS sounds sweet.

On re-reading this thread, I have to apologize for my previous reply: I was on the wrong track, thinking it was a Triaxis thread, and I probably made the wrong recommendations. Trying to apply Triaxis tube ideas to the LSS, I'm sure, just doesn't translate. Oops!

- T

 

[treedroppings]

I have a 1965 packard bell stereo that I bought down the street at an estate sale from dad's house for $35 :lol:

It's loaded with Packard Bell tubes and they say 'Holland' and 'by Amperex'... they are all Amperex tubes ( 4 el84s, 2 12ax7s 1 5u4gb) when I played the stereo it was moderately loud with good balanced headroom, but the breakup was really smooth and creamy ( with just enough upper midrange and treble)... if you can get amperex go for it!!!