JCM800

[ytse_jam]

Hi, could anyone explain to me which were jcm800 models (not the reissue or signature series) and the diferences between them? I'm asking this because a friend of mine bought a jcm800+4x12" cab through e-bay. When it arrived, he realized it was in very bad conditions: there was no fuse anymore and the junction was bridged, and it had some other problems. So he had his amp fixed by a tech and did a full retube.
well, i tried the amp and it was very bad sounding: awful cleans and, surprising, not a noticeable sign of overdrive even with all the controls crancked. what could be happened??

 

[Russ]

There are several JCM800's.

For starters there is the simplest 1987/1959 heads. These are Non-Master Volume heads. They have 4 inputs and are basically what the plexi of old became. The circuit is basically the same. This model requires a lot of volume to get it to where it sounds best. You can put pedals in front to get distortion earlier but for the amp to shine it is really loud without anything but the guitar plugged in. There are two high and two low inputs on this amp. Some people jumper the inputs from low to high to get a different sound with these. Others just plug straight into them.

Next is the 1986/1992 heads. These are bass heads. They are basically the same 4 hole NMV but voiced for bass. Again they are basically the same circuit as their plexi brethren. Another amp that requires a lot of volume to sound good.

The most popular of the JCM800's were the 2204/2203 heads. These are the Master Volume heads that most people end up getting. These amps allow you to turn up your front end to get distortion earlier but still sound great as a cranked beast. These amps have 2 inputs either vertical or horizontal. There is some preference towards the earliest vertical inputs because the circuit remained closest to the JMP's. After 1985 they changed the inputs to horizontal. Not only did this amp have cosmetic changes but the circuit changed as well. The 2203 received changes that reduced the number of caps from 6 to 3. This really changed the way that the amp sounded. Also the circuit board changed from a PCB with flying leads to the pots to having the pots mounted on the PCB itself. This is another reason that the earlier models were preferred. The use of the low or high input will change the way that the preamp sounds. The low input has less gain and the high input obviously has more. There are combos of this amp available as 4010 (1x12 2204), 4104 (2x12 2204), 4103 (2x12 2203).

The 80's ushered in a new wave of sound for Marshall. This was when they began to make footswitchable 2 channel amps. The head models here are 2205/2210. In their effort to create a "split channel" head they ran into some difficulty with the circuitry. The amps debuted in 1982 with the rest of the JCM800's but they had some issues with channel bleed. The amps offered reverb also. These amps went through a makeover at some time in 1986. It is safest to say that a post 1987 2205/2210 has the new design. The newer version fixed the channel bleed and became a real contender as a 2 channel amp. The voicing of the amp went from basic Marshall tone through to what was their highest distortion ever (at the time). The amp's distortion stayed raw and was a true beast. It became a staple for those that wanted a little more than the 2204/2203 could offer. Many Marshall purists turned their noses but it became widely known by those in the know that played in the 80's that these were "the" amps. These also had their combo versions. There was the 4210 that was a (1x12 2205), the 4211 (2x12 2210) and the 4212 (2x12 2205). These featured a single input and stayed in the gain channel by default unless the footswitch was used to change it to the clean channel. Without the footswitch installed you cannot access the clean channel. The amps featured an effects loop and DI also. The effects loop was tube as was the reverb.

I am assuming that your friend bought a tube head. So, I won't go any further because the rest was either solidstate or early hybrid amps (ss with tube power).

You say that the fuse was removed for a bridged connection.... That is some shady hack repair. Even with that obvious problem fixed there may have been other things wrong with it. I am sure that the tech did his best to fix anything out of the ordinary. Again, you say it was retubed? It should sound great. Depending upon the amp, your input will change. On the 2204/2203 heads try the "high" input. With a 1987/1959 try bridging high on 1 to low on 2 then plug into high 2. The split channel heads there is no choice but to use the single input. You might also want to clean the tube sockets and reseat the tubes. The older amps can have oxidation on the tube sockets and/or even loose sockets. Be sure that you have the proper impedance selection on your amp also. Improper mismatch can fry your amp. Acceptable mismatch will just change your tone. Always mismatch with your speakers having more impedance than your amp. Without enough load your transformer will not last.

I am assuming that there may have been tube or transformer issues with the amp because to bridge the fuse means that someone was having a tough time keeping the fuse from blowing. If the amp continues to blow fuses then look to the transformer as the culprit because he just got retubed. Something else to consider is that there may have been mods that removed the gain from the amp. Marshalls are known to be one of the amps that people love to mod for whatever reason. There are mods that affect tone and gain as well as output. Without actually checking out the amp it is difficult to assess the problem without more detail.

 

[ytse_jam]

many thanks Russ, it is always worth to read every line of your long posts!
i think amp model is a 2203 or 2204 (don't remember the front panel exactly, but the amp surely hasn't got an fx loop), but next time i see my friend (who is the singer of my band btw) i'll watch to find out the model exactly. Cab impedance was set right, and i tried every input. The amp doesn't blow fuses and everything seems right, the only problem is the tone. It seems strange to me that they modded it removing gain, also because the cleans are very bad. it makes me think they've changed the whole circuitboard! I'll try to discover something more about this misterious amp.
thanks again

 

[fatboy135]

good job russ

 

[Aramism]

sick post russ.


which one was the famous slash tone? i believe it was the silver jubilee but which jcm 800 model was that based on? or was a totally seperate jcm 800 model???



i think slash's sig marshall head is pretty much the same thing as the silver jcm 800. howeer i think that on "apetite" he used a regular jcm 800, i don't know which specific model though. i think it was "use your illusion" that he used the silver jcm 800.

if you could help me clarify my claims as well as clarify which particular model he used it would be much appreciated.


thanks

 

[Russ]

Ok I figured this would come up but the thread topic only asked about the JCM800. So here goes:

In 1987, Marshall celebrated their 25 years of business and Jim's 50 years in the business. Yes, he was in the business well before Marshall Amplification came to be. The amp that was produced was the 25/50. This amp came in gray tolex and had a chrome chassis. The series was affectionately called the Silver Jubilee/ 25th Anniversary. After 1987, the gray tolex left and the typical black tolex was used but the chrome chassis stayed. These were then called Jubilee amps (no gray, no Silver designation). They continued to make this amp and even made a signature series for Slash in 1996 (3,000 units). The beauty of the Jubilee amps was the ability to switch them from pentode to triode thus cutting their power in half. The Jubilee amps came as:

2550 (25w/50w head), 2553 (mini head version of 2550), 2554 (25w/50w 1x12 combo), 2555 (50w/100w head), 2558 (25w/50w 2x12 combo), the speaker cabs carried were basically the same as the 1960A + AV and B + BV (these were the 2551 cabs) but they also had 2x12 cabs that were slightly smaller than the 1960 cabs but also came in A + AV and B + BV cabs (these were the 2556 cabs).

A little more about the 80's and Marshall. They reissued for the first time the Super Lead in 1988. These were 1959S and 1987S. The cabs were 1960AS and BS. Then there was also the mini 2204 that showed up in 1986-1987 as the 2204S. This matched the smaller size of the 1965 A+B (4x10 cabs) and the 1966 A+B (2x12 cabs). JCM800's ceased to exist as of 1989. There were some JCM800 reissues since such as the limited run for GC (2203LE) and the current "slightly improved" version of the 2203 (2203x). The GC versions came in both plain black and also red tolex. In 1982, there were some limited edition JCM800s that were issued in white. During the course of the 80's there were red amps here and there also. There was also a period that had a bad batch of grille cloth that appeared brownish instead of black.

I hope I covered most of the basics here with regards to the tube amp lines. Of course, there was always the custom orders but those were mainly cosmetic things. I did not address the other hybrid and SS models as I am not so interested in those.

As far as what Slash played on Appetite goes... I don't know. I do know it was a Marshall. I do know that he auditioned over 100 Marshall amps before choosing the one he chose. I know that in early footage he is seen playing a Jubilee. But then again, he is also seen playing a split channel and a master volume head. I think I even saw footage of him playing a non-master volume head. So what exactly he used is questionable to me. I know that Jose Arrendondo was modding amps and they seemed to be very popular with the scene at the time. But so were Lee Jackson's and other modders' designs. It may have been bone stock it may have been modded. I do know that he used his 59 LP copy (made by a guy in Redondo Beach) as his recording guitar. I thought that was cool because I lived there (Redondo Beach) for a while as did the boys from Motley Crue and many others. I actually worked at a little liquor store for a while right around the corner from Billy Idol's pad too.

 

[Russ]

Oh, so he claims all he ever uses is a single half stack, a Jubilee (whether it is his signature or not), even though his stage is full of amps. I am sure this is the case with many artists too though with just putting gear on stage for the effect or for the endorsed company. He was bummed when he lost a bunch of amps in the St. Louis riot incident though, as I would be too if I lost gear like that.

 

[Nomad100]

Great info Russ.

Not to hijack this thread, but didn't Marshall make some 'Fawn' colored JCM 800's back in the early-mid 80's?

 

[Russ]

They may have. I know that they had the fawn covered JMP's. Fawn is a Marshall color. There again, the 800 you saw may have been recovered in fawn or even ordered that way too.

 

[Elpelotero]

you have no idea how long I've awaited an explanation like that...NO IDEA!! AMAZING INFO!!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!

 

[Russ]

That speal didn't even include the Canadian market amps that remained internally fused as well as vertically input with toggle switches all because of their version of the UL Code. They did things a little differently up there. I think that the cold does something to the thought process or maybe it was the French blood? Just kidding, eh? Honestly though, the Canadian models were a little odd with their red writing on the back in both English and French and the afore mentioned quirks. One good thing though is that they maintained the flying leads to the pots longer. I am not so sure about the while fuse board inside the head though. Being that I haven't taken the time to fully research the Canadian models I couldn't tell you about any changes that were made as far as caps or resistors or anything like that that would change the sound of the amps though. Maybe we could have someone well versed in Canadian Marshalls pipe in here.

 

[Russ]

Oh yeah , and before anyone says what about the 2203ZW? It is basically a 2203x equipped with some cosmetic detailing and 6550's instead of the typical EL34 much like the USA models in the 80's were. Which reminds me, the USA Marshalls tended to have 6550's as opposed to EL34's during the 80's. Originally this was because the 6550 tended to be more durable and cost efficient for the transport as opposed to the EL34. After a while people began to favor the 6550 as opposed to the EL34 so it further stuck though you could still get your Marshall outfitted with the EL34's if you wanted. The UK versions maintained the EL34 configuration. Again, Canadian market Marshalls are a mystery to me though I believe that they may have had EL34's staying more true to the original design.

 

[Russ]

Ok, so now I know what amp he was using for Appetite.

It was a modified 1959T also known as a Super Tremolo. The tremolo circuit was turned into a an additional gain circuit and a master volume was added because we all know that the 1959 4 hole non master volume amps were very loud. The tech that modded the amp was Tim Caswell. He also did amps for George Lynch and for Queensryche. The mod was called #39 because it was the amp # at SIR. SIR was a rental company that rented to different recording artists and had studios. Tim was one of the amp techs there. The JCM800 that you see in the early media was used for cleans as #39 wasn't very clean anymore. Neither the Silver Jubilee nor the Jubilee existed yet so Slash could not have used the Jubilee. Slash loved that amp so much that he actually tried to steal it from SIR. His roadie accidentally brought it back to SIR for a rehearsal and they snatched it back up. George Lynch had rented it for his tour a couple months before Slash got it and actually had thoughts of how he could steal this amp too. He even claims to have had thought about removing the brain and replacing it with a different one. George eventually had Tim mod some amps for him. I am not sure if Tim modded any of Slash's but it wouldn't be too far fetched.

 

[Russ]

I almost forgot... that 1959T head was not a JCM800 at all. The 1959T was made sometime between 1965 and 1973 because it was a handwired amp. It is unsure if it was a plexi or metal face though. You'd have to ask Slash, George, Tim, or whoever else has played it.

 

[Nomad100]

Cool info Russ,

I always thought that early GN'R didn't quite sound like a Jubilee. Saw them live at a small venue right when Appetite For Destruction came out, didn't sound like a Jub live either?

Kind of cool that even Slash's greatest moment involved a modified Super Lead.... Like so many other greats.

 

[Russ]

I guess it is just from playing them and really getting to know about them over the years. I have never sat down and read the History of Marshall. I have flipped a couple pages though, literally just a couple pages.

The JCM800 split channel amps 2205/2210 genre did have the little change some time in the 1986 model year. They were completely done by the next year. This is why if in doubt just buy an 87 model if you want the later design. Some actually prefer the earlier version. It just isn't my cup of tea. Most don't want the channel bleed though. And yes, you can get a work around for the channel bleed on the earlier model.

Jimi used Sunn amps as well as the Marshalls but I am no authority on Jimi so I can't say what he used for the Blues album.

Morello is actually a pretty good guitarist and his choice to use the 2205 worked for him. I am not so sure about the Peavey cabs though. They kind of sound cheap to me.

A superbass is a cool amp. You can get basically the same SLP type tone but you have the option of using a little more bottom. They sound pretty thick.

I never cared for the TSL but the DSL is an ok amp. I am not much for anything after the JCM800 line except maybe the 6100's. I guess it all just depends upon what you play and what you want to sound like.

As far as Marshalls all sounding the same, it depends upon what you do with it. Like a Mesa you just have to work with it. The amp only provides a base for your tone. I can tell you right now that in no way do the 900 or 2000 series sound like my 2210. The 800's were more raw and less compressed. I think that Marshall tried to compete with Mesa and take some of the popular market share and this is the reason for the deviation from what had been a decent->great amp. The thing is, most manufacturers have somewhat of an identifying undertone that sets them apart form other companies amps. So with that in mind, the thought that an amplifier company's amp should sound similar is feasible. You cannot say that a 1959T sounds anything like a DSL201. Another obvious comparison would be the SS v. tube amps. Even though the amps in general may vary there is however a distinct core tone that says Marshall. I think that is done so that someone that is looking for that tone has an easier job of finding what it is that they are looking for. If this is lame, all other amp companies are too including Mesa.

Another thing to look at too is that Marshall was and still is a cornerstone to the foundation of tone as we know it. Had there not been a Marshall sound then we might all be playing Fenders still. There have been other Fender offshoot modified designs and guess what... they all still have a similar sound and most still want some variation or connotation of that gainy sound. Some will favor Marshall others Mesa. A common thread being that they all are looking for a particular tone. When they buy an amp guess what... they look for a particular brand that has a particular sound. More often than not it is the dominant stereotype of a manufacturer's tone if not a particular design. Sometimes that common tone is what makes them so great. The mids that Marshalls produce actually cut well and are typically pleasing to the ear. If they weren't the company would have gone belly up years ago.

I think that what we have to look at here is the broadening of our thinking. It is easy to say oh yeah this company's amps sound like this or that. Of course they can. But they don't all sound the same. An unsuspecting would be Mesa owner might be a little unhappy if he thought that all Mesas were Marks or all Mesas were Rectifiers. There is common ground between even those series but they share a common sound... Mesa. I know that if I never played a JMP and had little knowledge about Marshalls that if I played a TSL I would avoid all together Marshall like a plague. I still do but I have the knowledge that they have good amps too that don't sound the same.

As a guitarist I see mids as something that you must have whether you want tehm or not because they fall within your register. Without mids your music is somewhat lacking. Try listening to your music and then cut them out. Sounds like A$$... There is a point at which even amp settings without enough mids sound much the same. You eventually get lost in the mix. With too much mids you are still heard at least. this brings me to another factor many overlook. Gain can sound great at low volume but it slowly loses effectiveness as you turn up. High gain amps try to overcome this with headroom and clean power. Guitar tone gets better as you lose preamp gain and let the power tubes take over for saturation. The funny thing is, many artists play much cleaner than most would think and still achieve excellent tone. In fact, most of the scooped sound comes from mixing, mic'ing and after eq'ing.

Regardless of what anyone says, an artist is an artist. They can be rather odd but they are human too. Saul had an interesting background if you read about him. I think that if you had been given the opportunity to play multiple amps you would play them to find the one you wanted with the sound you wanted even if you weren't recording. I know I do. I played hundreds of LP's starting in 1992 before buying one in 1994. I was on a quest to find one that I could bond with. I still have it. If you care about your tone then you are picky about what you use no matter what it is and even if others like different stuff than you. This is why it is important to play before you buy. You may decide that you don't like how that Gibson LP Custom feels, sounds and plays afterall. You might like a Studio better regardless of price.

 

[treedroppings]

^^ Jimi played thru Marshalls

thats all the technology I need! they have REAL good power distortion!

however I use a peavey XXX because I play near residential areas...
so I understand

my mark 3 simul-class 112 combo was a badassed thing and it could be heard for a mile or two! HECK YEAH!!! but the low volume sound was NICE as well esp with a jackson/emg guitar! and the eq option!

 

[Finnster]

Russ,

since you seem to me as the Marshall guru here. What should I expect to pay for a two channel JCM800 from 1986 with no channel bleed. It is in near mint condition.

Thanks...Im gas'n!

 

[Nomad100]

I'm not Russ 8) , but expect to pay around $750 for a channel switching JCM 800 in good condition. (And it's interesting that the single channel 2204 & 2203 amps seem to go for more cash).

 

[Russ]

There are some minor modifiers to consider here. If the amp is near mint I would assume perfect structural condition, no mods (some people mod these using the reverb circuit as a basis for the extra gain stage without having to install yet another tube), original caps and Drake transformers, near perfect tolex, grille cloth, logo and silkscreening cosmetics, pots and jacks that are original and not noisy, missing or loose, a crack free non-warped vent cover (these amps tend to have warped and cracked plastic vent covers) and corners (these are plastic and crack or break without much force typically), an intact handle and end caps, reverb tank that still works, an intact DI knob (common for these to have been broken off), feet that are intact and still spring, a good two button footswitch and a set of good tubes. It would depend also on 2205 or 2210. I would say that a 2205 in that condition could go as high as $850. The 2210 might fetch $1100. This all depends upon the immediate demand for the amp and what the buyer is willing to spend on such a specimen. Some people don't know what they have. Though some of the criteria above is more show than go, depending upon your intention, your willingness to pay more or less can and will change.

These amps aren't your typical Marshall fare which is why I am sure that you are GAS'ing for one. They were a great highgain design that Marshall gave up on in lieu of the Dual Reverb heads of the 900's (mistake). The 800 channel switchers had a much better RAW Marshall sound. The clean isn't real clean but in a Marshall who plays clean? The reverb is a nice touch but isn't formidable. The original footswitches sucked for these amps. The replacement ones are much better. You can even find them that say Channel and Reverb. Marshall footswitches of the 1/4" stereo plug type are all the same. The footswitch takes you out of the "Boost" channel and also turns the reverb on and off. Without the footswitch you are in Boost by default. This is not so bad but you don't have full use of the amp either. Again some mod the reverb channel into a footswitchable highgain boost circuit. I have the schematic here somewhere if you want it and it is available if you look hard enough online. It takes the amp a little further without having to have a boost pedal because it is then built in and it is tube at that. There is also a tube buffered effects loop that I am sure can be modded into another gain stage or boost effect. I just haven't seen the schematic for that yet. There also isn't a footswitch for the effects loop either. I assume that the DI could be modified into an additional Master too but then again as often as the knob breaks off I would be careful going there. Really this amp was the cats meow for early highgain Marshall style. It won't sound like a Mesa or even try. It doesn't need to. It sits well in the mix due to its voicing and it can be pretty **** brutal. I would take one hands down any day of the week over a 2203/2204. Oh wait, I already did that before.

Mine is in fair condition with a few snags in the tolex with a dime sized repair on the front edge at the top. My DI is cracked off (I don't use it nor care to). The vent has the tips of the corners cracked off but the screen is intact. All my knobs work well and are quiet (again I don't care about the DI). I have a Randall replacement footswitch because I couldn't find a Marshall one when I needed it. There is a little chip out of one side of one of the handle end caps. Sounds like a trooper huh? It rocks so hard you better check your sister's socks. So cosmetics aren't everything. BTW mine is a 1988 with original Drakes and caps. I have Siemens EL34's in it with a hodge podge mix of 12ax7's. I keep that old mixed set in there to be able to swap around a little if I want different flavor. The Chinese makes it livelier in V1 while the Russian makes it darker. There is even an RCA in there just for kicks. The others I believe are an EH and another Chinese. I haven't run Mullards in it but then again why would I? This thing is all about being brutal. I can make it icepickier with the Chinese or mellow it out some with the RCA. I tend to run the Russian or Chinese in V1 though. This is not your mother's amp by any means...