IIc+ Hetfield mod

[Masterof1angel]

IIc+ Hetfield mod...

1. What is it?
2. Do I want it?

What exactly does it do? I love tons of gain but don't know what to do about this. I like the Seattle 89 show along with the garage inc tones. Black album too. Does Metallica actually use this mod, if so, when did James get this mod? Most importantly, Did he have the mod for those records/shows?

Thanks,
Angel

 

[JOEY B.]

As per your "sig", you have a Mark IV and a Mark V. With all the options that these amps have, I would not even consider modding your C+. I am the proud owner of a 10/84 DRG, myself. Please do not F&#%K up a perfectly good amp. I was a metalhead, guitar playing teenager in the Metallica heyday. Their sound did not impress me then, and even less so now (20+ years later). :roll:

 

[steve_k]

Put a "Crunchberries" sticker on it and you are there dude....

Steve

 

[Masterof1angel]

As per your "sig", you have a Mark IV and a Mark V. With all the options that these amps have, I would not even consider modding your C+. I am the proud owner of a 10/84 DRG, myself. Please do not F&#%K up a perfectly good amp. I was a metalhead, guitar playing teenager in the Metallica heyday. Their sound did not impress me then, and even less so now (20+ years later). :roll:

Thank you joey b. I am only keeping the C+. That I'm sure on. I'm def. selling at least one of the others and probably both. I have a studio to fund. I only need The One. I don't want to mess it up of course. I worship the black album tones and love the seattle 89 tone as well as the garage tones so I guess you and I differ there. So, do you actually know what the mod does and if those tones were made with it? The question still stands as to If james actually used it and when.

-Angel

 

[Masterof1angel]

Put a "Crunchberries" sticker on it and you are there dude....

Steve

Thanks man. I put some JJ's in the power section and tung sols in the preamp and it's killing. I do however, find myself up in no mans land where many people say I have no business being (vol
lead drive treble ~10) so I was wondering what it does and it it loses the clarity or if it gets tighter etc. If you can switch it on and back off, ETC. I've always liked having tons of gain and a light touch.

-Angel

 

[Geiri]

I remember an interview with hetfield where he stated that the main difference between his and kirks tone was that he liked to plug straight into an amp whereas kirk liked to juice it up in the front end with a tubescreamer. This was in metalhammer around AJFA and the black album era. When I think about it I was wondering what amps had such thunderous gain at the time. I would bet it was a stock IIC+ aka "crunch berries".

 

[Masterof1angel]

I remember an interview with hetfield where he stated that the main difference between his and kirks tone was that he liked to plug straight into an amp whereas kirk liked to juice it up in the front end with a tubescreamer. This was in metalhammer around AJFA and the black album era. When I think about it I was wondering what amps had such thunderous gain at the time. I would bet it was a stock IIC+ aka "crunch berries".

That's what I was thinking. I get some awesome tone with mine. The amp does get pretty tunderous This mod though, I ran across some info on the net that there is a Petrucci/ Hetfield mod and another mod that is just Metallica mod. What is this stuff? I wonder if Metallica, James in particular actually uses/used it or if it's just named after him. There is surprisingly little information on it and what it does.

Thanks
-Angel

 

[Elpelotero]

There's info in old threads on this board. Just do some searches and you'll dig up some good info on it. In a nutshell, you get more saturation at less volume, but your clean channel breaks up too soon.

 

[chipaudette]

I'm not sure if this is the "Hetfield" mod, but I've read talk about a "C++" mod to a "C+". I'm familiar some of the mods that people have mentioned in conjunction with "C++" mod and, yes, it does make the amp saturate earlier and does have the side effect of diminishing the headroom of the clean channel.

I've done a couple of the mods to my amp and I've put them on a switch so that I can take them in and out. I've found that usually do NOT have them engaged...too much gain just turns the sound into mush...not into a brutal slamming metal rhythm tone. The only time I really use them is when I want a more fluid and compressed solo tone for noodling. Otherwise, it's too mushy and has no dynamics to kick you in the gut like a good metal sound should have.

So, as mentioned above, you can search for threads talking about C+ mods and "C++" is a keyword that might help. This does not, however, imply that Hetfield's boogie has the so-called "C++" mod. Sadly, I don't think that anyone knows for sure what's in Hetfield's boogie but Hetfield.

Chip

 

[cremona]

I have a simual c+ , its sounds 100% like and justice for all with the right settings and when i use my marshall 1960bv with vintage 30`s , and with different setting Like the black album.

If you want metallica sound use EMG 81`s wich i also do for heavy guitars and a marshall 1960 BV with vintage 30`s , a parametrical eq in the Loop if you want it as scooped as and justice for all, but IMO its not really needed.

James used his old trusty simula c+, marshall 1960BV with a Sansamp tech 1 and a Aphex eqf-2 Eq in the loop for the Black album .

He also dubbels or tribels the guitars when recording, the piece in ONE after the last chorus its 16 guitar tracks at the same time.

 

[JOEY B.]

Thank you joey b. I am only keeping the C+. That I'm sure on. I'm def. selling at least one of the others and probably both. I have a studio to fund. I only need The One. I don't want to mess it up of course. I worship the black album tones and love the seattle 89 tone as well as the garage tones so I guess you and I differ there. So, do you actually know what the mod does and if those tones were made with it? The question still stands as to If james actually used it and when.

-Angel

I'm not sure if this is the "Hetfield" mod, but I've read talk about a "C++" mod to a "C+". I'm familiar some of the mods that people have mentioned in conjunction with "C++" mod and, yes, it does make the amp saturate earlier and does have the side effect of diminishing the headroom of the clean channel.

I've done a couple of the mods to my amp and I've put them on a switch so that I can take them in and out. I've found that usually do NOT have them engaged...too much gain just turns the sound into mush...not into a brutal slamming metal rhythm tone. The only time I really use them is when I want a more fluid and compressed solo tone for noodling. Otherwise, it's too mushy and has no dynamics to kick you in the gut like a good metal sound should have.

Chip

Chip tells the truth here regarding the "mush" from too much preamp gain. I have had great results using the Xotic RC Booster in front of my C+ for the more fluid and compressed solo tone of which he speaks. The best way to get the slamming rhythm tone is VOLUME, and lots of it, with lead drive around 5-6. 8) The C++ mod supposedly ruins the clean channel of the C+, and to me this is a horrible trade off.

 

[Masterof1angel]

There's info in old threads on this board. Just do some searches and you'll dig up some good info on it. In a nutshell, you get more saturation at less volume, but your clean channel breaks up too soon.

Thank you Elpelotero. So I guess we're talking about the C++ mod here? I don't know if that's the "Hetfield mod" or not and it looks like maybe no one really knows what that is. So the C++ mod gives you more gain in which part, more vol 1, treble, or lead drive? Does it give you more gain overall or just sooner?

-Angel

 

[Masterof1angel]

I'm not sure if this is the "Hetfield" mod, but I've read talk about a "C++" mod to a "C+". I'm familiar some of the mods that people have mentioned in conjunction with "C++" mod and, yes, it does make the amp saturate earlier and does have the side effect of diminishing the headroom of the clean channel.

I've done a couple of the mods to my amp and I've put them on a switch so that I can take them in and out. I've found that usually do NOT have them engaged...too much gain just turns the sound into mush...not into a brutal slamming metal rhythm tone. The only time I really use them is when I want a more fluid and compressed solo tone for noodling. Otherwise, it's too mushy and has no dynamics to kick you in the gut like a good metal sound should have.

So, as mentioned above, you can search for threads talking about C+ mods and "C++" is a keyword that might help. This does not, however, imply that Hetfield's boogie has the so-called "C++" mod. Sadly, I don't think that anyone knows for sure what's in Hetfield's boogie but Hetfield.

Chip

Thanks Chip. Is it hard to do? I agree that the amp sounds great for rythm around 9.5, 10 and 5.7 with my setup (I put JJ 6l6 and tung sol pres in lately and like it) but I like more gain too. I have to have the bass down really low (0 pushed) with gain this high though for rythm to keep it tight. I am thinking maybe if this C++ mod (any one know if this what pettruci and hetfield use) adds maximum gain and is switchable, I could do that and add a switchable tightness that the non geq c+'s have (like the Mark V manual) so I could have maximum awesomeness and not spoil the integrity of the original circuit.

-Angel

 

[Masterof1angel]

I have a simual c+ , its sounds 100% like and justice for all with the right settings and when i use my marshall 1960bv with vintage 30`s , and with different setting Like the black album.

If you want metallica sound use EMG 81`s wich i also do for heavy guitars and a marshall 1960 BV with vintage 30`s , a parametrical eq in the Loop if you want it as scooped as and justice for all, but IMO its not really needed.

James used his old trusty simula c+, marshall 1960BV with a Sansamp tech 1 and a Aphex eqf-2 Eq in the loop for the Black album .

He also dubbels or tribels the guitars when recording, the piece in ONE after the last chorus its 16 guitar tracks at the same time.

Yeah, Mine's awesome too. I use a emg81 into different cabs. I like the black album (I actually can tell different tones on my step-dad's vinyl audiophile setup) and the seattle '89 setups. the black album live **** dvd is good too. I don't need to debate different setups because I know what I like, I just want to know about the Hetfield Metallica mod but If anyone's interested, Here's why I picked those... Kill em all is great guitar work and sounds great but is a bit thin in the low mids and bottom, Ride the lightning is really inspired playing and good tone but not recorded as tight I think. Also It has a pedal in front. Master is C+ finally but with passive pickups and a bit scooped. justice finally has everything but is recorded and engineered poorly. Seattle 89 is IIC+ and esp emg at it's best, mexico city is the same with a bit more scoop and thunder and possibly more engineering to sound more like the black album and the black album is many different tones and amps but some really really stick out to me. I can get into that later if you wish. Maybe we can talk about that elsewhere, right now I'm pretty tickled with my Metallica sounds, but I'm trying to go beyond as well.

P.s. That's an amazing fact about the end of One. Thank you for the info. I'd like to talk more about stuff like that on the board

Thank You,
Angel

 

[Elpelotero]

C++ is same as Hetfield/Petrucci mod. Although it's worth to note Petrucci also has another mod whereby the clean channel has its own separate volume/gain knob.

They are able to not compromise their clean tones because they have an arsenal of amps from which to derive cleans.

I personally wouldn't do it unless it was done by the mesa factory (if you can convince them to do it) and if it was switchable. However, 1 or 2 members here also know how to do it.

If you only have 1 C+, don't ruin the amp. Keep it stock. You can get metallica tone without this mod. All it does is not burst your ears by having to crank to volume 9 to get their tone.

 

[Silverwulf]

The Seattle '89 show and what you hear on the "Live Sh%t" recordings is only partially IIC+. James was using the IIC+ in combination with an ADA MP-1 Preamp for the dirty tones on that show (pumped into the Strategy 400's). There was a Mesa Studio Preamp dedicated for cleans back then (blended with the JC-120). Kirk was using an ADA MP-1, so you're probably hearing as much (or more) MP-1 as you are IIC+ on those shows.

The Black Album was mostly IIC+, with some MP-1 blended in. According to one of the assistant engineers, there's also a Jose modded Marshall that belonged to Bob Rock scattered here and there, but the IIC+ is the bulk of the tone.

 

[#2121313]

To answer your original post, see the reply by "jvk" here:
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32031

Here's a thread which discusses the recording of Puppets/Justice a member on this other forum here contacted Flemming Rasmussen who actually replies and gives a ton of info specifically to achieving guitar tones:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/58664-condenser-mic-identification-metallica.html

Here's as close as I've ever heard to someone re-creating the Black album tone:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=298888

Here's the original discussion to the above link with the Black album tones:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=1874041

My advice/opinion on achieving Hetfield's tone (86'-93'):

Simul IIC+ a MUST (you can get close with a Mark III, IV or V) but if you can afford and find a C+ get one

1960B Cab - another must in my opinion, although I do hear good things about the standard Mesa cabs (not the recto over sized, I believe the stiletto series are the good ones...). But just get a 1960B. G12T-75s for a Puppets like or V30's for a Justice like or I'd say you'd probably wanna mix em and do G12T-75's and V30's in an X pattern.

Parametric EQ - Something decent, it's a good idea to spend a few extra bucks on something decent, I have a Rane PE15 which is good but I'd say say to try a Furman PQ4 if you can find/afford one.

Pickups - Anything with high output, EMG 81's are great, I used to swear by them but am now using a Duncan Distortion but I think your picking hand is more of a factor than the pickups. But you will need a high out put humbucker of coarse.

Guitar - Solid neckthru mahogany body with a rosewood or ebony board.

This is what I have learned from my years of chasing those tones...I am as happy as ever with my current tone and it's right in the ballpark of the tone your after (from what you've mentioned).

Here's another link of a post I just made that outlines my current setup and settings, you'll probably find some useful info:
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=42412

To answer your question about the hi settings of your Vol1, Treb & Drive...I don't know what your exact set up is like, but I bet if you have the right cab, eq and picking technique down you'll find that you'll lower those knobs to somewhere around Vol1 9, Treb 7 and Drive 7, don't forget you can also experiment with the push/pull functions...

Good luck, lemme know your thoughts.

 

[Masterof1angel]

Thank you so much guys. It's funny I have an ADA MP-1 sitting around that I don't use. I thought they used that for the lead sounds. Anyway, I get **** right close with my setup (simul c+ with emg 81's) but lately I've found that the emgs are a bit brittle (solid statey) and have a slightly less organic feel. It's almost less immediate of a response. Anyway, I'll experiment with that. Thanks guys!
-Angel

 

[#2121313]

Try the 18 volt mod with your EMG's that may do the trick...I'll dig you out a link for details...very easy to do and to reverse...

 

[#2121313]

Here's one method:

This method allows you to perform the mod outside of your existing wiring, meaning you wouldn't have to interfere with your existing wiring at all in any way, so if you don't like it you can go back to your existing wiring configuration by simply unplugging the batteries - see diagram above, should be self-explanatory.