Having trouble getting a good heavy guitar sound

[jjmathews202]

Hey everyone, Im having a lot of trouble getting a good heavy guitar sound for hardcore/punk/metal music coming out of my dual rec. My chords sound ok but definitely sound very amateurish, and lack presence. They dont really sound like they are right in your face but sort of like the were recorded from 5 feet away. The palm mutes sound too fuzzy, and lack definition, especially when i play palm muted octaves in drop d where i change the high octave note and continuously play the low d along with it. Im having a lot of trouble getting the higher notes to stand out as it usually just mixes in with the low d. Altogether it just sounds sort of fizzy and it seams like the notes (which should be completely seperated because of the palm muting) sort of bleed together along with a bit of fizz to make this really amiteurish and bad sounding recording.

Heres my rig setup.
Les Paul -> mxr dyna comp w/ sensitivity at 9 oclock and output cranked ->(bypass) digitech hardwire cm-2->vox wah->ernie ball VPJR-> mesa dual rectifier. Im playing on the 3rd channel on the modern setting with presence at 9 oclock master somewhere between 10-12 oclock gain at 12-1 oclock, bass at 3 o clock mids at 9 or 8 oclock and treble at 2-3 oclock.

Im going into a 1x12 closed back cab with an eminence legend inside it. (which actually sounds really good although im saving up for a bogner 2x12 or an avatar vintage 2x12.)

im recording this with an sm48 (at an axis of 30 ish degrees from the cone of the speaker about 2 inches from the grill) going into a behringer eurorack mixing board then going thru the 2 track tape out into the headphone input jack on my macbook recording into garageband. (its a relatively crappy rig, i know )

Any help as to how i can get rid of the fizz and bleed between my palm mutes would be much appreciated and general guidelines as to how to make distorted guitar sound good in recordings as well would all be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

 

[screamingdaisy]

Double track your guitar.

In my limited experience recording a single guitar track tends to sound thin and wimpy no matter what. The trick is to double track the guitar as this will fill in the sound and beef things up.

The compressor is likely the source of your hissing between mutes (if it's on). A good practice is to remove any effects that you're not actually using from the signal path. So, if you're tracking dry guitar (no effects) then remove all of them from the path. If you're tracking a guitar solo, then put your wah and overdrive back in for the solo.

The dialled down midrange and/or cranked up bass is likely why your notes are lacking definition.

Also, don't try to fill in the bottom end with guitar. That's what the bass is for.

 

[jjmathews202]

Thanks for the response! I think Ill record without stomboxes and such and just go straight into the amp for the rhythm tracks.

The dialled down midrange is likely why your notes are lacking definition.

Also, don't try to fill in the bottom end with guitar. That's what the bass is for.

How much should I dial back my bass? and how much should I increase my mids? Also is my treble ok as is? The other thing is ive heard that turning down the gain is a good idea, is that true?

thanks!

 

[screamingdaisy]

Thanks for the response! I think Ill record without stomboxes and such and just go straight into the amp for the rhythm tracks.

The dialled down midrange is likely why your notes are lacking definition.

Also, don't try to fill in the bottom end with guitar. That's what the bass is for.

How much should I dial back my bass? and how much should I increase my mids? Also is my treble ok as is? The other thing is ive heard that turning down the gain is a good idea, is that true?

thanks!

Me personally, I like my bass dialled back to around 10:00. But, when I was younger I used to like it up near noon. I also run my mids around 11:00 and my treble up around 1:00. That said, tastes change, and I wouldn't say that mine are any better or worse than others. Long story short... I wouldn't worry about what I like. Try recording a bunch of different tracks and write down the settings, then take a break so your ears can have a rest before you start comparing tones. Once you find a setting that records well check your notes and go back to it.

As for gain, lower gain can work well, but it may not give you the sound you're after. The Recto tends to pop out a bunch of harmonic overtones as you pass the 1:00 mark on the gain knob, and if you want those overtones then dialling the gain down to 11:00 is counter productive.

And yet another trick you can do is stack tones. Track once with a midrange heavy sound for definition, then track again with a scooped mid sound for girth and top end bite. A lot of guitarists speak poorly about scooped tones because they don't cut through in a live mix, but in a recorded version you have more options than you do live... such as multi-tracking a part to get the sound you want.

 

[gummx97]

Just to add to the suggestions, after recording, try "carving out" an EQ for your guitars. Screamingdaisy is spot on with the bass guitar handling the lower frequencies of the recording. Remember, the sound spectrum is limited and you'll be trying to fit in all the instruments and their frequencies into that limited spectrum. Imagine trying to fit the sound of a bass drum and bass guitar, then adding the low end of heavy chunking rhythm, it's a daunting task since they are all within a common frequency.

Try searching for articles on EQ, it's a very good tool to use in recording. Double tracking is also a great way to thicken guitars. Pan one side about 3/4 to the left and the other track pan it about 3/4 to the right, it'll sound wide and open. It will open up "sonic space" for the snare and even vocals if those are panned in the center. Some folks have tried copying and pasting to double track and then pan, but nothing beats playing it twice because of the little variations in your playing and dynamics.

It's also good practice when using EQ to cut first before boosting. Listen to your guitar tracks within the context of other instruments, since if you solo the track, it might sound "thin" by itself, but when other elements are added, it will sound different and maybe even good enough for what you are trying to achieve.

Good Luck!!!

 

[paintballnsk]

I would add to everything said, try getting rid of the dynacomp especially, and maybe some of the other pedals. I have one and I hate it for high gain. It sucks all the life and tone out of the guitar, it's unbelievable. Use a TS808 or OD808 instead. Also I'm not familiar with a sm48, I don't know how it responds to a guitar cab. I couldn't recomend an sm57 enough.

Also be gentle with your EQ. If you're eqing more than say 5db for your mid and bass, I think your settings or mic are probably setup incorrectly. You're using a paul and a dual rect, they'll rule when you get everything talkin right.

 

[Scooterjohn]

I don't know, the SM57 has been recording guitar tracks in the studio for a long, long time now.

 

[gonzo]

Try a Palmer ~!

i use one...


a few palmer users


Alex Lifeson
Palmer PDI-03 speaker simulators (4)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_equipment


Eddie Van Halen's Rig and Tone Techniques
van halen's PDI-03
http://www.cathedralstone.net/Pages/PalmerPDI03.htm



joe bonnamassa, actively using a Palmer
(palmer info starts at 3:05)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7S9b...ayer_embedded#!
also:
http://www.palmer-germany.com/9-1-guitar-tools.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJXUIgBRElQ




and a pdf from mercenary audio, about the PDI-09 in particular:
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/merce...lmer-PDI09.pdf





phil collen (def leppard) live rig:
we also use two Palmer PDI-05 speaker simulators for the rig. I run a Drawmer gate for a good noise gate on the outputs, which works fantastically well. The output of the Palmers actually goes to the monitor rig, FOH, and then the jump out of that goes into two old Randall RRM-2-250 solid-state power amps, which Phil’s been using since the early ‘80s. Those two amplifiers run four Marshall 4 x 12 cabinets on stage for the on-stage sound, but everything goes through the in-ear monitors on stage, so there’s no microphones on stage anywhere as far as the guitar rig goes!”
http://www.performing-musician.com/p...s/techthat.htm



Michael Landau uses a palmer pdi-04 for sends to effects......


SLASH
"We're using two heads and two cabinets set up on top of each other that go direct (via Palmer PGA-04)"
http://www.performing-musician.com/p...cles/slash.htm


Jimmy Johnson: Guitar Tech for Styx
"Jimmy has made a major change to Tommy Shaw’s guitar rig in introducing Palmer PDI-03 speaker simulators."
One major change that Jimmy Johnson has made to Tommy Shaw’s guitar rig in the last year or so is introducing two Palmer PDI-03 speaker simulators, which have not only saved space on the truck, but have also improved Shaw’s tone! Jimmy used to use the original Palmer simulators when working with Rush, but a tricky legal wrangle meant that they went out of production for quite some time.
“So I talked to Tommy and JY [James Young] about them.
As soon as I plugged them in, they loved them, and they almost sound better than a Marshall 4 x 12, if that’s possible, so we loaded up on them. I’ve even got our bass player on them now!”
http://www.performing-musician.com/p...hthat_0309.htm

 

[Drewtone]

How much should I dial back my bass? and how much should I increase my mids? Also is my treble ok as is? The other thing is ive heard that turning down the gain is a good idea, is that true?

thanks!

Yes, I've been reading that a bunch... lowering gain can deceptively produce a more powerful track.

Also, that in mind, as the others have said, double the track, panning one track toward left and the other toward right.

As for the frequencies, I don't recall where it would start fighting the bass for spectrum space, but Frank Zappa always talked about the guitar's tone living around 700-750htz, so that's a good benchmark.

 

[Yetti]

Wow those palmers sound pretty freaking cool would eliminate any need for being too loud!!
So if i run a Triple Rec with effects and run my 8ohm out into say a pdi-03 i dont have to worry about it changing the sound to drastically?
Then If i want to run it into my protools M-Powered can i just do the output into my line in on the Fast Track M thingy and Boom recording?

Gawd that would be just awesome. let me know if im on the right track here?

My only concern is the Triple is 150 watts and it says particularly the pdi03 seems the most popular harness' 100 only? would 150 kill it i guess?>

 

[gonzo]

YETTI-

i use the palmer junction.
it is the small unit, that only has the speaker filter in it, no load soak....
i use a WEBER MASS LITE for attenuation. that combination is cheaper than a pdi-03.
if i could afford the pdi-03, that's what i would have preferred.
as it is, i like the weber just fine.



you have to match your attenuator/load box, with the wattage of your amp.
it's better to have more, than your nameplate wattage.

you'll have to research, to figure out what's available.....
but the idea is as you have it in mind-
control the volume with the load box, dial in the gain on the amp (preamp versus power amp, and wherever that mix hits the sweet spot, that's what you go with, and then attenuate the volume down to be something you can handle/use)

then, use the output of the palmer (whatever version), at line level, to record with.

this will not sound like your cabinet in a room.

it will sound like the palmer has decided it will sound like.

it's simply a matter of whether or not you agree with the decisions that palmer has made.
i happen to dig the sound of it, so it works for me.

i a/b'd MY rig, close miced with a 57, with the junction, and it was SO CLOSE, there wasn't enough difference to matter, whatever differences there are, i can easily tweak inside my DAW, and the point was to drive my amp HARD, but not have the volume.
i can alway mic the amp, at the same time as capturing signal with the palmer, and blend them.
i do this whenever i can crank my amp loud enough to get some cabinet thump.


but be aware:

the cab sim, does NOT capture the sound of the room your in, which is probably HALF of what most guitarists think their rig sounds like.

and then they wonder why it sounds different when recorded in the studio.

if you get down on your knees, in front of your cabinet, while your wailing away, and stick your ear about a foot away from the grille cloth, THAT is what your cabinet sounds like to the microphone!
LOL

you use room mics, to get that BIG sound you hear when you are 10 feet away from the rig, hearing it bounce off the walls and shake the floor.

 

[Yetti]

Alright sweet, you pretty much cleared everything I was thinking and I agree with that. I'm going in expeting it to sound different but Im willing to tweak to get it close. And the idea of mixing in real mic and the sim really is what I want. I think im gona snag the 04. Got a guy near me with for 330, but there is an 03 on eBay at a decent price.
Thanks gonzo

 

[gonzo]

you're welcome.
let us know what you do, and then, POST CLIPS!
LOL


i did a review on the junction a long time ago, when i first got it.

did a recording, of clean and dirty guitar tracks, in stereo.

left side, a SM57 close on the grille.
right side, the Palmer.
no eq or effects on either side.

that way, you could mute either side of the recording, and listen to the differences in the tone and sound between the two.

got very little interest in it at the time, bottom line was, you couldn't really tell any difference between the two.
the palmer sounded a bit drier, and had more bite, but only slightly, in a mix, it's actually an advantage.

the PDI-04 has much more tweakability than my Junction.

 

[Yetti]

Hell yeah I will already got a 04 commin at the end of. tHe week. will be killer.

 

[gonzo]

just to be clear:
you're talking the PGA-04 Speaker Simulator, right?

 

[RectoStudioGuy]

I don't know, the SM57 has been recording guitar tracks in the studio for a long, long time now.

++++++++1!

 

[gonzo]

yep. i got a 57.

got my first one, in 1979.

i've been recording with them, since then.

great mics, they're tailored for the guitar frequencies.

something would have to be pretty **** good, to make me move laterally from that.

 

[gonzo]

my whole thing, is that i'm in a situation where i can't drive my boogie into it's sweet spot.

between the weber, my 57, and my palmer, i've got a lot of sweet spots now!

plus, live, my rig has never sounded better thru a P.A.

 

[VijfZiel]

There are many things that don't help you getting the sound you want. You need and interface and a AD convertor other than the ones in your computer. There are no comparison between that convertors and an apogee of 4,000 bucks!

But try a graphic EQ, it helps a lot! If you can get one phisycal, connect it to your rig (FX loop), or put the EQ plug in on the DAW. Try increasing 100Hz, cutting 1KHz, and increasing around 2-5KHz for clarity. Try to aproach a "V" style curve like in the mesa's mark, that's the common EQ for rock music in general (works well for drums too) and that type of EQ also works for your car's stereo, iPod, etc.