Getting Metal tones out of a Dual Rectifier (Rev F)

[YellowJacket]

I'm sure there are those here who will remember all my frustrations with my Recto and my inevitable love affair with my Electra Dyne. Now, given the evolution of my playing over the last four or five years, I am really shocked to find myself jamming with some guys playing metal and actually putting some serious hours back on the Recto. Thanks to all of you who rallied for me to keep it for that rainy day. Well, it's raining.

Here's the thing. I've always played rock, punk, and hard / modern rock on the Recto and it's really best for these sorts of tones. In person it's chunky and plenty heavy but when I record, I really notice how squishy, gritty, and crunchy it is. I just want the sound to 'pop' more with more edge, if that makes sense. More cut / definition / and sheen in the harmonics. I guess this is why metal guys say the recto is 'loose' and it needs to be 'tighter'. I can get a devastating palm mute but my arm feels like it's going to fall off before I finish one tune.

Guitars: I have a Godin LG and a Gibson LP but I'm currently getting my 'new' Godin Redline III outfitted for this specific project. It will have BKP Juggernauts in it which should be vastly superior to the stock EMGs which I detest. They're just not musical which is what I need for lead guitar.

So, any suggestions on turning it into a metal monster? We're not doing any super drop tuned djenty stuff. We're 'only' downtuned to Drop C# / Db and it's chugging with tremolo riffs and dirt vocals mostly.

 

[JCDenton6]

I'd start with the preamp tubes, the tightest meanest combo I have rolled is:

V1 - Tung Sol 12AX7 (or an EH)
V2 - Shuguang 12AX7B
V3 - Shuguang 12AX7B
V4 - Shuguang 12AX7B
V5 - JJ gold pin ECC83s

Try TAD 6L6 GC STR power tubes, I have heard that they sound like they were meant for a Recto, I'm going to retube with these.
I currently have the stock Mesa STR 440's installed.

My EQ is typically everything around noon except I run my gain around 10:00 since my Rev G is pre 500 modded.

What type of EMG's are in the Godin?

 

[YellowJacket]

81 / 85. I don't care for them much. It's a really fuzzy sort of a sound. Super tight but terrible for leads. The guitar is currently in the shop getting some work done, which is why I have not posted a NGD yet. I'll get there eventually. I'm getting the nut taken down a bit, the neck angle reset side to side, and new pickup rings / electronics / pickups. The LFR bridge may be replaced with the OFR Pro / Schaller Low Profile string spacing as well. Still haven't heard from the tech regarding this. You know how it is, project guitars...

The BKP are fantastic by comparison. I have a Nailbomb (Alnico) in my Les Paul and a Rebel Yell in the LG. I'm not opposed to boosting if that's what it takes.

And yes, I just got a small handful of Tung Sol 12ax7s to roll in v1. They're a bit more noisy than Mesa's SP12ax7a but I think it's not so bad. I've been getting a crazy hum off the guitars but it's definitely not the amp doing it. NOt sure what sort of electrical interference there is in that basement but I suspect I should check my wiring in the guitars and look for any grounding issues.

[EDIT] I'm trying to keep up with a non scooped i.e. flat 5 band Mark V so my EQ is usually gain up around 2:00 with the bass slightly below 12:00 noon, mids high like 3:00 or even 4:00, and treble around 1:00. Presence is usually around 12:00. Like it sounds heavy but just a bit too rock. It doesn't have that 'edge' to it.

 

[JCDenton6]

Yeah, the BKP's should be right up the alley metal-wise, and I think the tube swaps should help tighten up the amp.

If the tubes swaps don't help much you can always boost, nothing wrong with that!

Another EQ trick which I think you have done in the past is completely dime presence, and cut all the treble, also helps to tighten the amp and push more mids.

 

[YellowJacket]

The Nailbomb is pretty heavy sounding but perhaps it is the low volume playing that's not really getting the aggression I'd like. The Rebel Yell walk the line between rock and metal but that's more of a rock axe anyhow. I think when the Redline III is ready, things will get interesting.

I've tried the low treble / high presence trick. It can work really well but then there's that Mark V...

 

[JCDenton6]

Ah gotcha, might be time to look into EL34's, my amp originally came with Svetlana EL34's and they were super mid heavy tubes.

Would've been killer but I'm not much of an EL34 guy. :|

 

[YellowJacket]

I love the crunchier texture of the EL34s but I'm not down with the terrible tube life. Luckily, all the bridge pickups I use are quite mid heavy which really helps. I may try EL34s again at some point because they're just so crunchy!!

What's your take on a KT88 / KT66 combo? I've heard it's quite a bit tighter and more aggressive but also really REALLY loud =-(

I've got a TS9 I'm going to try this week in spite of my 'no pedal' policy.

 

[afu]

Although the frequencies can be notched out with EQ when mixing, to get a track to stand out, you have to emphasize the frequencies that aren't being dominated by bass, kick drum, snare, and vocals. I've found that cutting back is better than adding, but YMMV. It sounds like you've got it about right. You might try backing the distortion off to around 11:30-12. After a certain point, distortion thins out the sound of a guitar. On my 3 Channel Dual, adding in a lot of Mids makes it mushy; maybe dial it back. High output pickups don't require a lot of mid boost (generally). You might try a little more presence or treble to get some sizzle.

If miking a cab, try moving the mic back and forth from the center of the cone to the rim of the speaker, until it hits a sweet spot.

My suggestion for settings would be something like:

Pres: 12-1
Vol: 10
Gain: 11-12
Bass: 11-12
Mids: 10-1
Treble: 1-2
Master Vol: 10-12
Diode rectifier
Full power

Maybe try a cab with less "oomph".

I don't know, there's all kinds of things to try. I hope this helps.

 

[YellowJacket]

Do you guys think that maybe simply turning the amp up a bit may help? I can't really get it loud all the time for various reasons. It's strange though, in the room the tone sounds pretty stupid heavy but once I record, it starts to sound really rock / modern rock.

I'm thinking that boosting with discretion may help. Like, watching some youtube vids on boosting, turning up the 'tone' knob on the boost adds a nice cut / sheen on the top end of the tone and it just makes the tone more aggressive overall. Right now, I play so hard that my hand almost falls off after one tune and that's the amount of energy that is required to get a properly heavy tone. It just feels like the tone is great but missing an 'edge' to it, like it needs a bit more of a push. Turning up the gain never really helps much, it usually just makes things squishy and overly saturated. I mean I can get the gain up to 2:00 - 2:30 with the BKP and I can retain clarity there, but past there it's still the same **** wall that you hit back around 1 - 1:30 with Duncans.

I think I may need to experiment with down tuning as well. The band plays in Drop C# but I may go lower down to Drop B on the Redline III eventually.

Luckily, someone is lending me a TS9 to dick around with this week. It should be loads of fun. I was jamming on a Bugera Trirec* at rehearsal (Don't ask, long story) and when boosted, it generated 'acceptable' metal tones. I'm thinking it may be a lot of fun in the Dual Recto.

Another :roblem:: may be the 'organic PAF-ness' of the Nailbomb and Rebel Yell that I'm hearing. I mean I LOVE how they sound but perhaps it's just a matter of working with my new axe once it's ready. Indeed, lots of things to try!


Has anyone experimented with KT88 / KT66 power tube pairs in a Recto? Eurotube dudes seem to think this will turn a Recto into a fire breather. Aside from this, I'll acquire more preamp tubes as I need to swap them. Finances are tight and all my gear fund is currently going into the new axe. Best to do my best with what I have!


*The Bugera Trirec belongs to a former guitarist of a former band and he has not yet materialized to collect it. Me and the other guitarist have affectionately dubbed it "The Booger".

 

[LesPaul70]

Not to play the devil's advocate or anything (at least not consciously).

Having been in a relatively similar situation (a 'metal' band with two guitars), I would suggest that you don't try to 'compete' with the Mark V for the same frequencies - go the opposite route. Provide a different tone, complementing his instead of trying to imitate it. As a Mark and Recto guy, I would say that the two sounds complement each other magnificently; together, those two should give your band a heavier metal sound than any band relying just on one or the other could ever hope to achieve - or if your sounds were otherwise very similar. Basically, let him provide the 'bite' (with the Mark) while you provide the 'growl' (with your Recto). Take advantage of the different sounds - the whole will be greater than the sum of its parts. Trust me.

I would say forget the EL-34s. They would only take you closer to the Mark-style midrange-heavy sound.

As for solos and leads where you need more cut and focus, try an EQ in the loop with a midrange boost (volume boost optional). Or even before the amp (but then you lose the volume boost option - it will just add preamp gain). Or the Tube Screamer in front - but an EQ is more flexible and should help pinpoint your ideal tone more easily.

Hope this helps, rather than confuses you even further.

 

[protest]

Don't worry too much about tubes, just get an OD pedal. Max level, tone towards upper mid focus, gain off, and keep your amp gain, bass, and presence in check.

 

[afu]

One other thing: Move your pickups as close to the strings as you can. Then, back them down slowly until the intonation and sustain are no longer affected.

 

[YellowJacket]

Not to play the devil's advocate or anything (at least not consciously).

Having been in a relatively similar situation (a 'metal' band with two guitars), I would suggest that you don't try to 'compete' with the Mark V for the same frequencies - go the opposite route. Provide a different tone, complementing his instead of trying to imitate it. As a Mark and Recto guy, I would say that the two sounds complement each other magnificently; together, those two should give your band a heavier metal sound than any band relying just on one or the other could ever hope to achieve - or if your sounds were otherwise very similar. Basically, let him provide the 'bite' (with the Mark) while you provide the 'growl' (with your Recto). Take advantage of the different sounds - the whole will be greater than the sum of its parts. Trust me.

I would say forget the EL-34s. They would only take you closer to the Mark-style midrange-heavy sound.

As for solos and leads where you need more cut and focus, try an EQ in the loop with a midrange boost (volume boost optional). Or even before the amp (but then you lose the volume boost option - it will just add preamp gain). Or the Tube Screamer in front - but an EQ is more flexible and should help pinpoint your ideal tone more easily.

Hope this helps, rather than confuses you even further.

Nowai, this is really cool. All input is greatly appreciated. I totally agree, I am definitely trying to create a different timbre than the other guitarist. Trying to go for more growl / open crunch since he likes a very saturated sort of a tone. He's running a Rhoads Jackson with a Dimebucker in the bridge into a Mark V with the EQ flat into an oversized 2 x 12 with v30s. I have currently been running a Godin LG with a BKP Rebel Yell in the bridge into a Recto Rev F (red / modern) which goes into an oversized 2 x 12 with a c90 / v30. I try to get that open chainsaw sort of a tone but my hand is just feeling like it's going to fall off after one song because it takes so much effort to produce a heavy tone. This sort of energy level will cause injuries in the long term!

I think I'm just wanting a more metal / less rock sort of tone, more aggression while retaining the openness and transparency.

EQ wise, I'm trying to have something with a similar balance between highs, mids, and lows. I don't want to provide the lows while he provides the highs. I'm the lead guitarist and it does complicate things slightly! I want to overall shape of the tone to be similar but the timbres to be quite different so that we can create that wide and heavy stereo sort of an effect. I definitely adjust my pickups but that's a great tip, it's easy to overlook. I'm curious to hear my rig with the Redline III / Juggernauts! :twisted: :twisted:

Don't worry too much about tubes, just get an OD pedal. Max level, tone towards upper mid focus, gain off, and keep your amp gain, bass, and presence in check.

I'm beginning to think that the key for an awesome rock / punk tone is a more PAF-ish humbucker into a high gain head while for metal, the trick is to dial in a mid gain crunch and goose the crap out of the front end for maximum tightness and sustain while still retaining dynamics and articulation. I've been listening to lots of examples of tones with boost pedals and I definitely like what the tone knob does to the high end. The added gain from the drive knob always sounds like garbage, which is why it's turned off. I'd have to experiment with the level to really find what works best, but I'm beginning to think that rectos need a bit of help to do a proper metal tone (while a Mark V DEFINITELY does not).

One other thing: Move your pickups as close to the strings as you can. Then, back them down slowly until the intonation and sustain are no longer affected.

It's pretty stinking important to get pickup height correct. I definitely like to mess around with that for sure!

 

[protest]

A Recto won't need help to do a metal tone, however it may need help to do the metal tone you have in your head. I'm not familiar with the older Dual Rec's, but I believe they are voiced tighter and brighter than they're modern day counterparts. These settings might not work for that amp, but it's worth a shot.

Gain: 11:00 - 12:00
Treble: 12:00
Mid: 1:00
Bass: Low, start with it off and then turn up to fill out the sound. On mine it's usually around 10 - 10:30.
Presence: Same as Bass, though I usually don't go above 9 as this is often the source of the "Recto Fizz"

Run these settings with an OD pedal, and see what happens. If nothing else they should be a decent starting point, unless the older Recs are vastly different.

Honestly though, if you're the lead guitarist you guys should probably just switch amps with your other guitar player lol.

 

[JCDenton6]

KT88 / KT66 power tubes might work as well to tighten up the amp and push mids without the upper mid bump of the EL34's.

Also the 6CA7 tube has the goods as well (so I've heard online)

 

[afu]

I notice you keep talking about the aggressive picking required to get the sound you want. What thickness is your pick? I used .4 to .7 for years, but switched to heavier gauges as I got older. When I bought the EMG Het Set, it came with one of his picks and I loved it, so I bought a big bag of Dunlop Ultex 1.14. The sharp point adds a snap to the sound and the thickness makes getting volume easy. Maybe try one out when you're at the music store.

A compressor might help, too.

 

[ryjan]

If you have to agonize over this many variables to get a sound you like then I suggest you buy an amp that suits your style better. Any Dual Recto should get a great metal tone without any pedals or magic tube combo.

 

[YellowJacket]

A Recto won't need help to do a metal tone, however it may need help to do the metal tone you have in your head. I'm not familiar with the older Dual Rec's, but I believe they are voiced tighter and brighter than they're modern day counterparts. These settings might not work for that amp, but it's worth a shot.

Run these settings with an OD pedal, and see what happens. If nothing else they should be a decent starting point, unless the older Recs are vastly different.

Pure destruction! I notice that the crazy input level from the OD can really squash some of the complexity of the tone but it tightens it up like crazy, really giving a more modern tone overall.

Honestly though, if you're the lead guitarist you guys should probably just switch amps with your other guitar player lol.

AHAHAHAHAHA!!! :lol: :shock: Yes, we've discussed this.

KT88 / KT66 power tubes might work as well to tighten up the amp and push mids without the upper mid bump of the EL34's.

Also the 6CA7 tube has the goods as well (so I've heard online)

The KT88 / KT66 combo sounds the most appealing to me but finding a good boost pedal used would cost less and probably have a more dramatic effect. Playing around with a TS9 I got some great tones.

I notice you keep talking about the aggressive picking required to get the sound you want. What thickness is your pick? I used .4 to .7 for years, but switched to heavier gauges as I got older. When I bought the EMG Het Set, it came with one of his picks and I loved it, so I bought a big bag of Dunlop Ultex 1.14. The sharp point adds a snap to the sound and the thickness makes getting volume easy. Maybe try one out when you're at the music store.

A compressor might help, too.

I'm thinking hotter pickups will help. I've switched to Dunlop Tortex picks and it does help. Maybe some of my frustration is due to low volume playing?

If you have to agonize over this many variables to get a sound you like then I suggest you buy an amp that suits your style better. Any Dual Recto should get a great metal tone without any pedals or magic tube combo.

I don't know of 'agonize' is the right word. If you look at my setup, it's geared {tehe} for Rock / Punk / Hard rock and I haven't really played much metal up until now. It's more like fun 'exploration' / tone chasing and I'm actually having quite a bit of fun with it. I just wanted to hear everyone's input so I had some ideas of things to try.
TBH I'm pretty happy with what I hear in the room or at rehearsal but it's trying to dial in recorded tones, especially at low volumes, which is really frustrating. The recorded tone would always sound much more 'rock' than what I heard in the room, but I guess playing a Godin LG and Gibson LP, both with passives, will yield a somewhat vintage / more rock vibe.
Well I AM happy, except for my arm feeling like it is going to fall off tehe.

I do have a project guitar / super strat that is currently a work in progress. When it's finished, it will be geared much more specifically to metal so this may get more more where I want to be.

I tried recording with a TS9 boosting my recto and I actually got a sound I was pleased with. It's just tighter and far more aggressive, especially on the recording. The amp gets squishier, deeper, and more growly without the boost but it's tighter, brighter, and smoother / less complex with it. But it is what it is. Half the fun is recording and finding what I like so I'm going to enjoy the journey!!

 

[JCDenton6]

Also try experimenting with thicker picks and strings, I use the purple Dunlop Tortex picks (1.14mm) and the Delrins (2.0mm)

As far as strings go I use 11s for E - D, 12s for Drop C tunings and 13s or baritone strings for B - Drop A tunings.

Try some forearm dumbbell curls for more stamina for metal playing as well if you find yourself tiring quick, it's all in the wrist, not so much the arm.

 

[b0nkersx1]

Hey

Logged in for the first time in a while to post here - glad to hear you've rediscovered your recto. Here are my two cents.

I'm sure someone will rush to jump all over me for this, but this is my experience - I never get a really heavy metal tone I'm truly satisfied with from my Les Paul, no matter the pickups. This is with a 6505 or a Dual Rec. At most, it straddles hard rock / classic metal. This is not a bad thing. Zakk Wylde makes it work for him, but I'm never able to. I do not know anything about your Godin. My suggestion is to bring your amp to a guitar store and try it out with several different types of guitars. I have the best luck for metal w/ mahogany strat-style body guitars (garden variety ESP/Schecter) with any sort of Tubescreamer boost. My other 6 string has DiMarzio Crunch lab, and my 7 string has a Duncan Distortion. Both sound great for metal.

Good luck