From great debate:IIC+ or not IIC+ (that is the question :p)

[visualrocker69]

Still fairly new to Mesa products, but I’m starting to get the picture. Kinda. There’s really a lot of subjectivity involved.

Now I’d like to get two distinct perspectives sorted out.

It seems there’s quite a bit of hype about the Mark IIC+ …and after hearing clips of it, I can see why. It’s very much justified, and all. I think Elpelotero sums up the “status quo” opinion:

I don't think anyone ever needs another amp besides the Mark2C+.
[...] the C+ makes you forget about every other amp in existence when you play it.

once you hear the cleans on a Mark2C+, you will utterly forget that Fender and Roland even exist as companies. I used to think the same thing. My friends fender twin is very very nice, but the C+ steps up to the plate like you wouldn't believe.

I guess I got caught up in the cult-ish following the amp has, but then scrolled to other threads and read a very interesting and *completely* different perspective, presented by none other than Boogiebabies:

The IIC+ is in a class by itself. No offense, but no self respecting IIC+ owner would disagree. Especially those who have been chasing the dragon for 22 years. One persons "Close" is anothers unnacceptable. The evolution of the C+ to the III and IVA and B are variations on a theme. They sound different from each other and the next amp off the line regardelss. They are not the IIC+.
[…]The MK IV is the most refined Boogie ever. It should have it's own posistion in amplifier history instead of being compared to the IIC+.
[…]The point? They all sound different for many reasons. You would be hard pressed to find two Boogie that sound identical off the production line yet alone two that are 15-22 years apart.

You can find the entire quote here: http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?p=77074&highlight=#77074
I highly encourage anyone unsure of their opinion to do so, it’s highly enlightening.

Anyway, how do the rest of you feel? Is the IIC+ truly the final answer? The only amp a guitarist could ever want? Is it worth putting everything else on low priority just to pursue it?

Or are each of the amps truly unique in that they are not better or worse persay? Would it be more practical for someone such as myself to buy a Mark IV first to lay a foundation and then worry about novelties like the IIC+?

The rational part of me agrees with the latter, but the idealist in me will settle for nothing other than the IIC+. Of course, a huge part of it is fixation and idolization. But it IS the Mark IIC+ we’re talking about… it’s justified, like I said before.

In other words, after this summer (taking out the cost of a new guitar and cab) I’ll have enough money to buy a IIC+ should one come up. Should I just obsessively pursue it or should I instead relax, settle for a IV (which, everyone seems to agree, is an oustanding amp on its own) and worry about the IIC+ later?

…it just frightens me that I might do just that, and then miss an opportunity to get a IIC+. I’d kick myself forever if that happened. (Well, at least until another one came along )

Gah! I just don’t know. HELP.

Thanks

 

[Russ]

I think that before you buy anything you should at least know what you are considering. You are obviously interested in the Mark series. Go play some. You might be completely satisfied with a III of all things in one of the nice rainbow of colors. No disrepect intended. It is just that there were a bunch of color stripe designations that classified them as opposed to letters. There are some that are closer to the IIC+ than the Mark IV. I would play a new Mark IV but realize you will not achieve full appreciation of it until you spend some time with it. Then play an older Mark Iv if you can find one. Take some settings from the settings page with you to try out with the amps. While you are out and about check out the used gear and see if you can find any other Mark series amp Mark III's tend to be out there the most from my experience. Then there are Mark II's and IIB's. There are even the original Marks from time to time. This might become a slight obsession looking in every music shop, pawn shop, etc. You might go check out what is offered locally in your classifieds.

Listen to clips but take into consideration that these are other people playing. Usually clips are of people that have had their amps for a little bit and have gotten to know the amps a little. I totally respect Boogiebabies and elpelotero and everyone else who has put the IIC+ up high on the must have list. I myself want one.

There is a part of me that feels like I may become disillusioned though once the honeymoon is over with the amp. This is just from experience in finding my tone. I have cycled a lot of amps and rack gear over the years. In the process, I have learned to look at the amp from a distance so to speak and really listen to it to appreciate its qualities. With this in mind, I have grown to really enjoy my Mark IV and would find it difficult to part with it. But, I am not so tunnelvisioned that I cannot see the bigger picture. For example, I just sold what is touted as one of the best Marshalls ever built. Why? The Mark IV does what I wanted the Marshall to do better than the Marshall did as far as my tastes are concerned. I still have another great Marshall to cover my Marshall tonal needs. The reason I moved the amp was to explore other territories. With the proceeds I am bringing home my 2ch. Dual with a Traditional cab. I could have easily bought another Mark IV but I want to have a broader tonal palette. I could have picked up a IIC and saved to have it modded to C+. But I wanted to give the Dual Rec a shot first. It isn't a pre500 but I feel it is a decent representation of what one sounds like. Will I make up my mind about it in the first week? Probably not. I probably won't even start to think about keeping or dumping it for at least a couple months. It will probably take me that long to figure out all the ins and outs. I know the Mark IV took me a while to figure out. That amp still has little things here and there to surprize me with. I am actually still working on completely knowing everything about it.

In any event, these Mark series choices you presented are not cheap. Take your time to think about things. Your cup of tea is your cup of tea not someone else's though some have the same taste. I would probably steer towards a Mark IV only because they are more common and you could probably find a better deal on one than you could on a IIC+. If you later feel that you still want the C+ you could always sell the MarkIV and put the $ towards a C+ or a C and have it made into a C+. Being that you obviously have yet to really experience Mesa amps it doesn't make sense to drop a lot of money on something that is so rare as a IIC+ right away. Boogiebabies has said that the IV is in his opinion what Mesa intended all along. This makes sense as the amp has only seen a single revision in over 17 years. Compare that record to other amps. I don't think there are many that can make that claim. Again it is your choice, so take it for what it is worth.

 

[Baconator]

Is the IIC+ the final answer? I guess that depends what the question is. I'm not being facetious here, I'm serious.

There are certain things it does not do or doesn't do well. It doesn't have the 'chime' that certain other amps such as AC30's have and it doesn't really do certain Marshall sounds well - at least not in my unskilled hands. What it does do is give a very rich clean sound that really works nicely for me, especially since I've never been a big fan of AC30s. The overdrive is sweet beyond compare, but even that is a little touchy. It's an amp you have to learn to use (like many others) even though there aren't nearly as many comtrols as on a IV. This may well be sacrilege, but I find at the volume levels I tend to play at that I often prefer boosting the clean channel with a dirt box for leads since it seems to be a little more forgiving that way (i.e. more compressed). In the hands of a great player this amp has a ton to offer, but it still isn't the most versatile amp. It works for me, even with my lack of skills, but there are other amps I find myself lusting after for various reasons. I'd like to have an earlier Deluxe amp, either tweed or reverb, because they have great sounds that cannot be reproduced by a IIC+ - it won't do the lower-fi dirt nor the same shimmery cleans of these amps. I'd also like an 18 watter just because I've never been able to get the master on my 60-watt C+ more than a hair above 2 on stage without drowning out other band members. It's a wonderful thing when I do get the chance to turn up past 3 or so, but the opportunities are rare - it's a helluva loud amp! Some day I'm going to try an attenuator with it and see how that works.

In the end, I don't know if I'd suggest laying down your life savings on one unless you get it at a price that you know you can recoup if it doesn't turn out to be everything you hoped it would. I'd suggest this for ANY used amp purchase though.

Of course this is just my .02.

 

[Boogiebabies]

Well, if you started obsessing sooner you could have bought a Hardwood IIC+ Simul-EQ-Reverb-EV for less than $ 1500. Now both the MK IV and the MK III are getting more respect than ever as they are the only alternative to the C+. Green Stripes are popping $ 850+ on Flea Bay. Now, we also have dirt bags tipping sellers off that thier 60W non EQ C+ is worth $ 3500. It's like the guys that complain about Dumble's. Either buy one or don't. It's up to you if it's worth $25K. We are all victims of supply and demand. Mystique is an upcharge.


My advice, call Emmitt Brown in Hill Valley CA, or get a Red/Green Stripe MK III, IVB or both. If this is unsatisfactory, as a last resort you can buy my 84 IIC+ Simul-EQ-Reverb Hardwood head for $ 4500. I'll even throw in a Ionic Breeze bathroom unit.

 

[disassembled]

It seems the Mark IV market is going all screwy on ebay. My wide B combo was 1050 and another went for 965. Then there are some heads that went for 1600 and 1500 so i don't know what this says about the market in general but i think people are buying into hype with some of these amps instead of thinking about what they're worth. Art's mark iv with 412 cab went for like 1500 which is a good price imo but should have sold for more.

I bought a 290 power amp that had a bit of cosmetic damage for like $250 but it doesn't bother me 1 bit (looks and sounds pretty **** good racked up) I can wait for a deal to come but it seems like a lot of buyers can't or the ones that want the stuff just don't have the money but would be willing to pay more than what somethings worth. Patience is a virtue that I hold near and dear to my heart because it has kept me from overspending and has even made me some extra cash in some instances. I use Ebay as a reference because you can see the trends if you keep up with it.

This might be the peak for the IIC+ who knows? At the current avg prices i am not in any hurry to pick one up and don't even know if one would satisfy me (i am extremely picky).

I do know a lot of the stuff I bought 6 or 7 years ago has gone way up in value (some stuff has doubled or tripled) which will be great for me when I get out of the military I can pull it all out of storage to sell and make a few bills to put into my car. I remember when noone bought pv amps and they were going for like nothing on ebay but now they are regaining popularity by luring in the metal heads which has brought up the value of the older stuff.

I bought a Mark IV based off of the recordings i've heard and the reviews of people on the board but I won't find out if it's the amp for me until i get some good knob time. I kind of expect to like the amp based on what i've heard so far and since i really dig the tone of the Triaxis.

I think it would be great if the Mark IV market picks up for boogie because honestly I had no idea what any amp but the rectifier was from mesa up until a year or so ago. Everything else looked like it was just a piece of crap and the recto was the amp to have. I think most people on the board are sucked in by the marketing scheme and their favorite bands using the recto that they discount anything from being as good let alone better.

BB:

You have a PM about the IIC+ as long as long as you keep your word on the ionic breeze!


Greg

 

[Schmoog]

My advice, call Emmitt Brown in Hill Valley CA, or get a Red/Green Stripe MK III, IVB or both. If this is unsatisfactory, as a last resort you can buy my 84 IIC+ Simul-EQ-Reverb Hardwood head for $ 4500. I'll even throw in a Ionic Breeze bathroom unit.

why no love for the blue stripe? blue stripes kick just as much as the reds, and were it not for those 10 extra watts, they'd be just as good as the greens

 

[Boogiebabies]

If you find me a mid to late 70's Ibanez Destroyer, I'll throw in a hamster too.

 

[user 2126]

My Mesa is the best amp I ever played and it a Mark III Blue stripe JUST AWESOME.

 

[Schmoog]

don't worry. I'm not gonna do what everyone thinks i'm gonna do. and FREAK OUT man. I just wanna know, who's comin with me? WHO"S COMIN WITH ME MAN?

My Mesa is the best amp I ever played and it a Mark III Blue stripe JUST AWESOME.

darkirish, thank you man!

 

[Boogiebabies]

Blue gets you cast into the Gorge of Eternal Peril by the old man from scene 24.

 

[Platypus]

Blue gets you cast into the Gorge of Eternal Peril by the old man from scene 24.

which is a smashing scene with some lovely acting....

 

[Boogiebabies]

Right.

 

[Schmoog]

WHAT is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

what do you mean? african or european swallow?

I don't know that! AHHHHHHHHh

how do you know so much about swallows?

well, you have to know these things when your're king...

 

[eltrain858]

I had no idea what any amp but the rectifier was from mesa up until a year or so ago.

+1

 

[JOEY B.]

I must agree with Boogiebabies about the "tipsters" to Ebay sellers. If they do not research the item that they are trying to sell, and price it for $2000 less than it would bring properly marketed, it's their own fault. :!: :!: :!:

 

[sundaypunch]

This might be the peak for the IIC+ who knows? At the current avg prices i am not in any hurry to pick one up and don't even know if one would satisfy me (i am extremely picky).

Just one opinion, but I don't think we have come near a peak market for a IIC+. For many people that are into amps $2500 doesn't buy much. Forget about Trainwrecks and Dumbles. Prices on "collectible" amps have been climbing in general. People spend $10k on a tweed Bassman, $5k on a tweed Super, $4k on a plexi Marshall, $4k on a nice TB AC30, the list goes on. Heck, people spend way more than IIC+ money on a new Two Rock or Fuchs. The entry level to get into a C+ is way too low for the market to soften.

Buy a nice one at market price if you want one. You will thank yourself a year later.

 

[Russ]

If you find me a mid to late 70's Ibanez Destroyer, I'll throw in a hamster too.

I owned one (Destroyer). I loved it. I sold it. I cried (figuratively of course). I have since not been able to find one.

 

[visualrocker69]

This might be the peak for the IIC+ who knows? At the current avg prices i am not in any hurry to pick one up and don't even know if one would satisfy me (i am extremely picky).

Just one opinion, but I don't think we have come near a peak market for a IIC+. For many people that are into amps $2500 doesn't buy much. Forget about Trainwrecks and Dumbles. Prices on "collectible" amps have been climbing in general. People spend $10k on a tweed Bassman, $5k on a tweed Super, $4k on a plexi Marshall, $4k on a nice TB AC30, the list goes on. Heck, people spend way more than IIC+ money on a new Two Rock or Fuchs. The entry level to get into a C+ is way too low for the market to soften.

Buy a nice one at market price if you want one. You will thank yourself a year later.

Boogiebabies and disassembled are talking ONLY about the IIC+ market, not relative to other amps.

I know of someone on these boards who bought one for like $3700 and seems to think you CAN'T buy it for less than $2500... then we've seen a few imbuya combos sell for like $1600 in the past few months... and the very recently a NON-simul class head whose owner refused to sell it for less than $2250 or something like that... a few missed the reserve by like $50, hahah... poor bastards.

And now, we have something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/MESA-BOOGIE-Mark-IIC-2C-Vintage-Head_W0QQitemZ130099176406QQihZ003QQcategoryZ10171QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

$3000 for a modded IIC??? Even if you combine the average price for a IIC head, and III head (ONLY to swap the tranny), shipping fees to Mike B, and all the upgrade costs (including +, simul-class, reverb, EQ, HELL even the **** imbuya shell...) it's less than three fucking thousand, haha.

On top of that, he's an aussie and wants 800 AUD (about 660 US $) to ship it to the U.S.

Do you see where I'm going with this? Prices fluctuate - it's just what they do.

 

[Elpelotero]

I got mine about 2-3 months ago for $1500. It was one of those cases where the seller didn't know what he had and I just hit the Buy it Now. it has no EQ, but for 1500, who cares. I got a steal.

You can find anything if you look hard enough. Exhaust all possibilities several times a day and you'll find yours.

 

[Shep]

This might be the peak for the IIC+ who knows? At the current avg prices i am not in any hurry to pick one up and don't even know if one would satisfy me (i am extremely picky).

Just one opinion, but I don't think we have come near a peak market for a IIC+. For many people that are into amps $2500 doesn't buy much. Forget about Trainwrecks and Dumbles. Prices on "collectible" amps have been climbing in general. People spend $10k on a tweed Bassman, $5k on a tweed Super, $4k on a plexi Marshall, $4k on a nice TB AC30, the list goes on. Heck, people spend way more than IIC+ money on a new Two Rock or Fuchs. The entry level to get into a C+ is way too low for the market to soften.

Buy a nice one at market price if you want one. You will thank yourself a year later.

Boogiebabies and disassembled are talking ONLY about the IIC+ market, not relative to other amps.

I know of someone on these boards who bought one for like $3700 and seems to think you CAN'T buy it for less than $2500... then we've seen a few imbuya combos sell for like $1600 in the past few months... and the very recently a NON-simul class head whose owner refused to sell it for less than $2250 or something like that... a few missed the reserve by like $50, hahah... poor bastards.

And now, we have something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/MESA-BOOGIE-Mark-IIC-2C-Vintage-Head_W0QQitemZ130099176406QQihZ003QQcategoryZ10171QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

$3000 for a modded IIC??? Even if you combine the average price for a IIC head, and III head (ONLY to swap the tranny), shipping fees to Mike B, and all the upgrade costs (including +, simul-class, reverb, EQ, HELL even the **** imbuya shell...) it's less than three f%&# thousand, haha.

On top of that, he's an aussie and wants 800 AUD (about 660 US $) to ship it to the U.S.

Do you see where I'm going with this? Prices fluctuate - it's just what they do.

it's $3700 Aus which is pretty high.. i got my mint mk III silmi blue stripe eq rev median head for $1890 with a brand new road case..postage is that high but..i got my US mk IV for $1800 AUS and $1000 Aust shipping..