ED Dissapointment

[toneocaster]

After owning my ED for 5 months now I took it to a gig last night, to a venue that holds probably 250 people.....a fairly good sized club. I couldn't wait to start the evening and see how she performed. I've spent countless hours at home experimenting with my ED and using different guitars, i.e. strats, PRS's and I could get the sound I was looking for with no problem. So I set the amp like I always do, 45w and right from the get go I had to turn the volume up. I turned the master up till I was blending with the mix. I was using a CS 56 strat with stock pups. The clean tones were great. When it was solo time, I was very disappointed. The minute I hit the gain (and I tried both stages) it was like someone reached over and turned all the treble off and the bass all the way up?? It was muddy as hell and sounded awful. I had a Keeley modded Blues Driver just in case and it saved my biscuits! Next set I switched to my Tom Anderson DT Classic, Humbucker in the bridge and, switched to the 90w mode. Clean sounded wonderful, the minute the gain was engaged the muddy bassy tone returned. I stayed on the clean channel and used the Blues Driver for the rest of the night. Even reaching down and turning the treble up, it didn't help at all. It just made the clean channel more bright....and with a strat that's not needed.


Guys, what am I doing wrong? The amp is loaded with 25 w greenbacks wired at 8 ohms and as it stands, I ready to sell this amp and stick to my trusty Fuchs ODS for my live gigs. 2k is a bit much for a bedroom amp. Any and all help and input would be greatly appreciated!

 

[screamingdaisy]

What were your starting settings? What cab/speaker? Did you have the opportunity to ask anyone how it sounded out front?

 

[DWAKO]

I'm sure you'll hear this from many others on the forum, but as you turn up the volume the bass response on the ED GREATLY increases, it's an extremely bass heavy amp. Many run their bass knob as low as 9 o clock to get a balanced tone. I know I play a very different style than you but at times I use a Tube Screamer to tighten up the low end response. But I would start out by dialing back the bass more the you usually would, it should fill out even on the clean channel as you turn up.

 

[toneocaster]

The volume was between 11 and 1 o-clock , treble was straight up 12, mid 10 or 11, bass 12 to 10, presence 10 to 1. and the master at 9. The reverb was set on for all modes and the rear "clean level" was on hi-low, but from what I understand, as the volume increases, this function bypasses?....Fairly straight ahead settings. I gotta tell ya, the owner's manual confuses the dog out of me. I've been through it many times while experimenting and honestly, a simple amp my ***! Maybe it's all me and I was expecting something different, but the amp sounds way better to me at low house volumes? I was going to change the speakers to Weber's, Thames or a blue, silver mix, but kept the greenie's in place. After last night I know that it's not a speaker issue, but rather the amp itself..........I really don't want to give up so quickly?? Help! lol!.......my wife and some friends told me that my sound was totally different last night. They either hear me with my Fuchs or for some smaller gigs a Hot Rod Deluxe and all could tell a difference, but then again, I had top use a pedal to get the bite I needed. Like I said, the clean was to die for, any attempt to overdrive sucked and was muddy.

 

[primal]

That is hard to say. I don't have experience with greenbacks so I don't know how they react to volume.

I run the 1x12 combo which uses the MC90 and I can say that it brightens up at drum volume nicely (tends to be a little dark at bedroom volumes).

Definitely disappointing to hear that. Do you have the opportunity to try it with another cab?

My settings which I think sound great at high volume is

volume 4:00
Treble 2:00-2:30
Mid 2:00-2:30
bass 9:00
Presence 2:00
Master to taste.

Also, the amp is much tighter in 90 watt mode then it is in 45 watt mode

Edit: missed the part where you said you switched to 90 watts

 

[toneocaster]

Thanks DWAKO....I'll give it a go.

 

[toneocaster]

"Also, the amp is much tighter in 90 watt mode then it is in 45 watt mode"...Primal, agreed!

 

[jeffp]

you`re scaring me. I love mine but haven`t been above 10 on the volume and that was only for a minute.

 

[YellowJacket]

The volume was between 11 and 1 o-clock , treble was straight up 12, mid 10 or 11, bass 12 to 10, presence 10 to 1. and the master at 9. The reverb was set on for all modes and the rear "clean level" was on hi-low, but from what I understand, as the volume increases, this function bypasses?....Fairly straight ahead settings. I gotta tell ya, the owner's manual confuses the dog out of me. I've been through it many times while experimenting and honestly, a simple amp my ***! Maybe it's all me and I was expecting something different, but the amp sounds way better to me at low house volumes? I was going to change the speakers to Weber's, Thames or a blue, silver mix, but kept the greenie's in place. After last night I know that it's not a speaker issue, but rather the amp itself..........I really don't want to give up so quickly?? Help! lol!.......my wife and some friends told me that my sound was totally different last night. They either hear me with my Fuchs or for some smaller gigs a Hot Rod Deluxe and all could tell a difference, but then again, I had top use a pedal to get the bite I needed. Like I said, the clean was to die for, any attempt to overdrive sucked and was muddy.

Weird.

OK.

Here's your problem. TURN THE MIDS UP!!!!!

That is my first piece of advice. Mids at 10:00 is great for bedroom tones as it phattens up the tone while simultaneously lowering the perceived volume of the amp. The mids on this amp act like a second volume knob and they really add a lot of cut to the tone. To cut bass, you CAN roll the bass knob back, but turning up the treble will feed less bass into the signal, thereby also dialing out muddiness. To get more cut, turn mids up. The Presence adds clarity to the tone.

My general cheat sheet for Mesa amps is that for gigs, bass goes down and mids go up and volume (gain) goes down. It says in the manual that if the low end gets too thick and boomy, you can turn down the volume and it will thin out the tone. That is worth trying as well.

Live, I was running a little less hot than you last night but I had the treble up at 1:00, Mids at 1:00, Presence at 1:00 and bass back at 9:00. This was with the volume at 1:30 and the master at about 8:30 on 45watts. (gain trim switch set to normal)


Second piece of advice: I never thought I'd say this but ditch the greenbacks. They tend to be very bass heavy / muddy sounding speakers with this sort of an amp. You want something like a v30 that has a similar overall tone but with more clarity and cut in the midrange, at least for gigging. I like the c90 / v30 combination mostly since it gives better lead tones. Honestly though, soundguys just mic the v30 so the c90 is more there to keep me happy and playing well. Screamingdaisy says that a v30 2 x 12 has cut and clarity but he likes the c90s because they provide a more unique tone. All preference, I guess.

You're running a combo though, right? I find I prefer a close back cab since this gives less booming in the bass as well. Just a thought.

you`re scaring me. I love mine but haven`t been above 10 on the volume and that was only for a minute.

I've never gigged this thing above 10 yet. Loud amp is LOUD!

I'm sure you'll hear this from many others on the forum, but as you turn up the volume the bass response on the ED GREATLY increases, it's an extremely bass heavy amp. Many run their bass knob as low as 9 o clock to get a balanced tone. I know I play a very different style than you but at times I use a Tube Screamer to tighten up the low end response. But I would start out by dialing back the bass more the you usually would, it should fill out even on the clean channel as you turn up.

This is mostly because of how we 'perceive' loudness.

http://community.calrec.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Equal-Loudness-Contours.gif

As sound gets louder, our perception of it changes.

Cradlefish and I have had numerous discussions about this. He turns up the mids even for practice because he wants to be 'used' to mid heavy tunes. I just set 'bedroom tone' for practice since I want to sound good to myself and because I don't want to go deaf prematurely. I always re-eq my amp for gigging because I understand both how psychoacoustics work and how a guitar blends with a bass. So ya, live I set my tone and then put in ear plugs afterwords. I also angle my cab up at me so I can hear it. If you have a semi - decent sounddouche, it is profitable to keep stage volume as low as possible so they can get a better mix.

 

[screamingdaisy]

I'll echo what the others have said... the amp produces a lot of bottom end. I generally run

Volume - 1:00
Treble - 1:00
Mids - 12:00
Bass - 10:00
Pres - 10:00

Les Paul with PAF pickups (Lollar Imperials) or SG with PAFs (Gibson '57s).

With single coils (Les Paul w/ P90s) I can get away with a bit more bass without mud (12:00).

I prefer to use 45w mode as I find it gives more of an emphasis to the mids, whereas 90w seems to bring out the bottom end more.

I defeat the reverb in Vintage Lo. I use that channel as my primary rhythm channel and I don't like the reverb smearing my rhythm stabs together.

Regarding the manual, I'm not a fan of the way the ED manual was written. I like how detailed Mesa manuals are, but I've noticed that the author has started giving opinions as to what is good or bad tone in the text. I feel this poor judgement since it gives people preconceived ideas over how the EQ should look instead of listening with their ears. I'd much rather people dial in the amp to sound good than keep the mids knob below 12:00 just because some guy wrote down a subjective opinion when writing the manual.

 

[tubby_cosmos]

Sorry to hear that the first gig didn't work out. The ED is a totally different beast at gigging volume, although a great one still. If you have a chance, try resetting your tones at gigging volume in this order:

Master => Clean trim => Treble => Mids => Bass => Presence

I believe it suggests somewhere in the manual to set treble => mid => bass since the treble knob has the greatest effect on the overall sound of the ED. You'll probably find totally different settings compared to what you use at bedroom volumes, but I expect you'll find something that sounds great.

 

[YellowJacket]

Sorry to hear that the first gig didn't work out. The ED is a totally different beast at gigging volume, although a great one still. If you have a chance, try resetting your tones at gigging volume in this order:

Master => Clean trim => Treble => Mids => Bass => Presence

I believe it suggests somewhere in the manual to set treble => mid => bass since the treble knob has the greatest effect on the overall sound of the ED. You'll probably find totally different settings compared to what you use at bedroom volumes, but I expect you'll find something that sounds great.

hmmm.

I found my cheat sheet version of turning volume (gain) down, bass down, and mids up as the volume comes up is a pretty accurate one. Still, I don't know what it is like to share the stage with a loud drummer. At any rate, the 45 watt mode gets a lot of traffic. Definitely preferable to 90 watts in many ways. I think the higher power setting mostly yields heavier more more 'extreme' styles of music.

So far as I have explored the Electra Dyne, the tone sounds more like a Mark series amp at lower levels, but as you raise the master, that 'brit character' becomes unmistakenable. I just LOVE how smooth and beautiful these things sound!

 

[J.J]

There is obviously a bright cap on the master. I really like some of the low level MK tones that you mention, but they pretty much dissapear as soon as you touch the master.

Its been 8 months for me and between the ED and my DRRI I can't even be bothered going to the shop to test the new RA.

The only real issue I have had is the one in this thread where the tone goes to mud on vintage low. Guitars the have a lot of bass cause trouble (Les Paul for me). I've tried running the bass very low (8:00 sometimes) and that always works, but is not always ideal.

What is working for me now is a closed back cab. I have also realised that I am leaning towards the V30 speaker rather than a C90 for playing in the band. The V30 helps control the bass much better. At home I still like either the C90 or both C90 and V30.

 

[screamingdaisy]

What is working for me now is a closed back cab. I have also realised that I am leaning towards the V30 speaker rather than a C90 for playing in the band. The V30 helps control the bass much better. At home I still like either the C90 or both C90 and V30.

I found the same thing. A closed back cab with V30s reigns in the bottom end and gives a more controlled "thump". I've been sticking to the stock C90 anyway since almost all of my other amps use a closed back/V30 cab and I want something a little different. Yeah, the bottom end is a little out of control, but I've been trying to go outside the box and integrate it into my style rather than forcing it to fit inside the box.

I have a pair of Greenbacks loaded now... just need to wait a bit until I can play.

 

[primal]

The volume was between 11 and 1 o-clock , treble was straight up 12, mid 10 or 11, bass 12 to 10, presence 10 to 1. and the master at 9. The reverb was set on for all modes and the rear "clean level" was on hi-low, but from what I understand, as the volume increases, this function bypasses?....Fairly straight ahead settings. I gotta tell ya, the owner's manual confuses the dog out of me. I've been through it many times while experimenting and honestly, a simple amp my ***! Maybe it's all me and I was expecting something different, but the amp sounds way better to me at low house volumes? I was going to change the speakers to Weber's, Thames or a blue, silver mix, but kept the greenie's in place. After last night I know that it's not a speaker issue, but rather the amp itself..........I really don't want to give up so quickly?? Help! lol!.......my wife and some friends told me that my sound was totally different last night. They either hear me with my Fuchs or for some smaller gigs a Hot Rod Deluxe and all could tell a difference, but then again, I had top use a pedal to get the bite I needed. Like I said, the clean was to die for, any attempt to overdrive sucked and was muddy.

So I had the house to myself and decided to give your settings a try with my 1x12 combo (MC90 speaker). I'm sure the neighbors weren't too thrilled .

My guitar is a a Suhr S4. Understand this is a bright guitar. Les Paul would be much much darker.

You had a range of settings, so I set it up as randomly in your listed range.
Vintage Lo
45 watt
Volume 12:00
treble 12:00
Mid 11:00
Bass 12:00
Presence 12:00
Master 9:00

Results: Mud, mud and more mud. Was not pleased at all.

Not sure what tone you are looking for. We all have our preferences. But I love a plexi style crunch tone. So I moved I changed a few settings and was instantly in tonal crunch bliss.

Here were my changes
treble: 2:00
Mid: 2:00 (don't be afraid to crank the mids on this amp)
Bass: 9:00

And just to add a touch of power amp distortion ( and piss the neighbors off) I put the master on 11:00.

Give that a try and tell me what you think.

The guitar of course makes all the difference in the world, so my settings may not work for your guitar. And my sound may not be what you are after either.

But if it is a crunch tone you are after, I have found with this amp, the crunch tones absolutely live in that mid control with the bite in the treble. Most amps in the past I have owned if you crank the mid you add mud. Plus as Mesa owners we are all almost conditioned to drop the mids. Not with this amp. This amp loves the mids turned up. Especially at high volumes.

Good luck!

 

[screamingdaisy]

Just finished playing through a pair of Greenbacks (G12M-25 w/ 75hz cones).

Vol 12:30
Treb: 1:00
Mids: 10:00
Bass: 12:00
Pres: 10:00
Master: 10:00 (45w)

SG w/ Gibson '57s and nickel wrapped strings.

They sounded great. There was a bit of that vintage soft bottom G12Ms are known for, but nothing overbearing and nothing I'd call muddy. They were also a lot more laid back than the more in your face C90, which I think would allow someone to be able to turn their amp up a little louder without offending peoples ears... which is a double bonus seeing as the G12M is already 3dB less efficient.

I played with the bass between 12:00 and 10:00. 10:00 was a little clearer on Vintage Lo & Hi, however it did thin the clean channel a little. Although less pleasing at home the slightly thinner clean may work better live... it's hard to say since I've never tried it.

I started with the mids at 12:00, boosted them up to 1:00, then pulled them down to 10:00 to simulate the OP's situation. IMO, with the Greenbacks it was totally useful in each position. 1:00 stiffened things up in a slightly less pleasant way, but doing so did add more crunch and would probably be more useful live. 10:00 was pretty warm and felt nice, but it'd be a pretty laid back guitar tone if you're going up against another guitarist.

I really liked the end results (the EQ posted above)... I felt it was warm and thick, however someone else would probably call it muddy, and I'm pretty sure it'd disappear the second the drum and bass kicked off. Live I'd probably boost the mids and cut the bass a bit... less pleasing in the bedroom, but more practical on stage.

I think the ED + Greenbacks is my new favourite setup. Unfortunately my combo only holds one speaker. I wonder how hard it'd be to replace the baffle....

To Toneocaster; how old are your power tubes? If they've been in there for awhile then it's possible they're worn out. When it happens I find it more obvious on dirty than clean tones, and even though we're harping on your settings in this thread some of the settings you did try should've worked.

 

[edge59]

This problem just stared and was fine before? How are your preamp 12ax7 tubes in the overdrive position? It is possible one of these could be going, I have had that happen before with other amps. Maybe swap out some tubes and see what happens. Mesa says this usually fixes problems with these amps most of the time.
All the best,
ED

 

[YellowJacket]

Just finished playing through a pair of Greenbacks (G12M-25 w/ 75hz cones).

Vol 12:30
Treb: 1:00
Mids: 10:00
Bass: 12:00
Pres: 10:00
Master: 10:00 (45w)

SG w/ Gibson '57s and nickel wrapped strings.

They sounded great.

You're a terrible person!! :lol: :lol:

I'm completely happy with the v30 and c90 in my oversized cab, and now I'm thinking of moving them into the thiele and the greenbacks into the oversized cab. See what you did!!????

I just don't want to mess with something that really works =-/

 

[toneocaster]

"To Toneocaster; how old are your power tubes? If they've been in there for awhile then it's possible they're worn out. When it happens I find it more obvious on dirty than clean tones, and even though we're harping on your settings in this thread some of the settings you did try should've worked."


I did swap around some preamp tubes to cure some bad noise in the lo-hi drive circut.....it cured the noise, but maybe the noisy tube is messing up elsewhere!...didn't replace, just swapped. I'll buy a couple and see if it helps.

I appreciate all the input. I want to make this amp a keeper!!

 

[YellowJacket]

Well, pickup swaps are also an option if you want to 'fine tune' your sound to work better with the amp. If you are doing to dump money into that you'd better be 95% of the way 'there' already in terms of tone. I mean making sure the tubes are fine and then trying some different EQ settings at gig volume is the first thing to try. After that, then you can think about stuff like pickups and electronics but man, I fought with my Dual Rectifier for 10 years. It just wouldn't do what I wanted it to do and it wouldn't really sound good until I had it cranked.