Dual Rectifier characterizations

[bowery969]

I've recently taken my first step, into a larger world.

I've gotten a taste of Mesa Boogie with my (new to me) Studio Caliber DC-2.

And so, I am hungry for my next bite of tone.

I'd like to get a Dual Rectifier. However it seems there are a lot of options when it comes to that flavor.

Trem-O-Verb, Recto-Verb, Badlander, Solo...I am sure I won't be able to account for all there are.

I am wondering if some resource already exists, that would describe the character of all these models.

If not, I am wondering if someone can point me in the right direction.

I am looking for a Mesa with a lower end than what the DC-2 offers. I've seen some discussion that some of these Dual Rectifiers can handle bassier tones.


Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[CoG]

Hey there - I've owned all the real Rectos and the post-2013 MultiWatt DRs are the best Rectos hands down. Basically they do everything tonally, while all the older Rectos all involve fairly major tradeoffs somewhere. Start there. If you can't bond with a Multiwatt you just don't actually like Rectos .

That said, if you *only* play hardcore, death, or thrash, a Single will probably put a smile on your face for relatively cheap, and a Tremoverb is worth hunting down *if* you worship at the altar of '93-'04 alt-rock though they're overpriced/overhyped.

 

[bowery969]

Hey there - I've owned all the real Rectos and the post-2013 MultiWatt DRs are the best Rectos hands down. Basically they do everything tonally, while all the older Rectos all involve fairly major tradeoffs somewhere. Start there. If you can't bond with a Multiwatt you just don't actually like Rectos .

Great summary.

I'll try to seek out the MultiWatt.

 

[bandit2013]

Do you plan on using any extended range guitars like a 7-string? That may be important aspect of choosing what works best for you. If not, then anything goes. As far as the Dual Rectifiers go, I only have experience with the Roadster and the MWDR. Two different extremes. I have nothing to offer you on the earlier models.

The following is just my observations and opinions:
General: The Rectifiers are far different than the DC or Mark amps. Dialing them in is not exactly straight forward but it is not difficult to figure out. The tone controls are not as expressive as other Mesa amps. There is some tone shaping but not like you would get with the other amps in the Mesa lineup.

Roadster: one of the darkest amps I have, sinister in its delivery but works against you if you are a palm muter. Harmonics can be difficult to pull off if you are doing the pinch off harmonic trick. Raw and vintage settings seem to be very weak but the Modern mode is where it is at. The two clean channels do have some alternate higher gain settings, Tweed and Brit. Out of the box with the stock preamp tubes, it is not compatible with a 7-string guitar. Perhaps with a font end distortion pedal to thin out the sound. There is a way to get the Roadster to sound epic with 7 string guitars but the preamp tubes are difficult to find these days. That would be the 1990's Mesa Chinese 12AX7 tubes. I have several of those, so I tried them in the Roadster, also ran the red bias color STR440 tubes and behold the best sounding amp I ever heard with a 7 string. Before that it was just a mud fest with the 7-string. With the preamp tube change, it behaves much more like the MWDR but still darker in tone.

MWDR: much brighter than the Roadster, much more aggressive too. Almost as dark but not quite. It is also not compatible with 7-string guitars. Still looking into tube rolling to see if it can be tightened up without the need of any external overdrive pedals. Still, it is a really good amp in general. Different preamp than the Roadster so what worked in that amp may not do the same thing. 6-string, no issues there. Excellent heavy metal amp in many respects. Most will prefer to thin out the sound with some sort of overdrive pedal. This amp can run much hotter power tubes. Mine came equipped with the STR440 gray bias color tubes. I have not yet adopted the current tube offerings from Mesa with this one. They are now using the STR445 tubes that are stock in the Mark VII.

Badlander 100W: Not as deep rooted in the Rectifier sound, decent amp though. Some may prefer the 50W version. This is more of a hybrid amp and not as dark as the two dual rectifier amps I mentioned above. This hybrid has the front end of the Mark VII running in crunch or VII modes. What makes it different is the post gain tone stack driver borrowed from the Rectifier amps. Some may feel it lacks the gain structure so many are looking into mods like the legendary tone Mr. Scary mod. I like the BAD just as it is. Really good with the 7-string and 6-string guitars. No mud fest. It has more of a modified Marshall JCM800 characteristic to it. It is also very close to the Mark VII in some respect but yet different in other ways.

Not a Rectifier amp but has a nice sinister tone if you dial it in, two amps that come to mind, JP2C and the Mark VII. Awesome amps for 6 and 7-string guitars. The JP2C and the Mark VII do share some common ground with each other but are still different amps. Both can be dialed in for some amazing sounds that will compete with the MWDR but the MWDR is far darker toned than the two. Some of that Mark heritage is there but if you want more authentic sound, the Mark IV, III, or the IIC+ may be what you are after.

TC100, not as deep or dark in character as those listed above, but works really good with the 7-string guitar. Good with 6-stringers too. Fun amps but seem a bit limited in its tonal offering. I have the TC100 and TC50. More of a vintage tone than deep rooted Rectifier amps. We used to run these in the band but the MWDR took over after I got my hands on one. Now we are running with the Badlander for most of the stuff we do. More classic rock than heavy metal. When not playing in the band I will tend to lean more heavy than typical. I can get that with any of the amps. The hard part is choosing which amp to use.

 

[bandit2013]

MWDR is the beast of beasts. I would agree with @CoG on that.

 

[VisaL]

Good old 3ch dual recto would be my choise. Those can be had for next to nothing. BUT, I was not pleased how it came from the factory. It was muddy, boomy and if you tried to make it brighter, it was wrong kind of brightness and it was still lost in the mix.

I stared the schematics for few days and tried to figure out how it differs from the previous versions which sound better. There’s not too many differences, but enough to make drastic difference. So after bypassing couple resistors, different value gain pots and, additional cap to ground to tame the highs, adjusting the bias from 20% to 50% etc it really came to life. It’s still fat, but very defined even with 7str tuned to A. It’s much more immediate. Oh, and I dont like to use pedals to trim the lowend other than as an effect..

If you dont like to tinker, then rectoverb is good choise.

 

[SonVolt]

I'd start with a MultiWatt.

 

[bowery969]

I'd start with a MultiWatt.

MWDR is the beast of beasts. I would agree with @CoG on that.

MultiWatt is sounding more like the way to go.

I haven't added a 7- or 8-string to my arsenal yet (eventually I will want to tackle deftones' catalogue).

But I will be content to play 6 strings, and have a heavier tone with the MultiWatt.

I like that it has the option to play either 100W or 50W.

Among the DR options, are there any other amps that are more bedroom level friendly? I think I saw that the Badlander offers a 25W.

With lower-wattage options, am I going to get darker tones, and/or, will any of these 50's be ok in a smallish room?

 

[sloanthebone]

MultiWatt is sounding more like the way to go.

I haven't added a 7- or 8-string to my arsenal yet (eventually I will want to tackle deftones' catalogue).

But I will be content to play 6 strings, and have a heavier tone with the MultiWatt.

I like that it has the option to play either 100W or 50W.

Among the DR options, are there any other amps that are more bedroom level friendly? I think I saw that the Badlander offers a 25W.

With lower-wattage options, am I going to get darker tones, and/or, will any of these 50's be ok in a smallish room?

BL 25 uses EL84 tubes if you care. The BL50 can be set to 20w and either 50 or 20 wattage sounds great at bedroom levels. BL50 and 100 can also use 6L6 tubes. One of those would be the more versatile option over the 25. Love my BL50.

 

[Snicksound]

MultiWatt is sounding more like the way to go.

I haven't added a 7- or 8-string to my arsenal yet (eventually I will want to tackle deftones' catalogue).

But I will be content to play 6 strings, and have a heavier tone with the MultiWatt.

I like that it has the option to play either 100W or 50W.

Among the DR options, are there any other amps that are more bedroom level friendly? I think I saw that the Badlander offers a 25W.

With lower-wattage options, am I going to get darker tones, and/or, will any of these 50's be ok in a smallish room?

25W is not any more bedroom level than 50 or 100, it's still loud enough to play with a band. A good Master Volume is way more useful.

The value of a smaller amp is more about weight and cost saving, but EL84s just don't sound the same IMHO.

They do make the Mini Rectifier if you want to go that way. But I'll die on that hill: it's not the same

 

[SonVolt]

MultiWatt is sounding more like the way to go.

I haven't added a 7- or 8-string to my arsenal yet (eventually I will want to tackle deftones' catalogue).

But I will be content to play 6 strings, and have a heavier tone with the MultiWatt.

I like that it has the option to play either 100W or 50W.

Among the DR options, are there any other amps that are more bedroom level friendly? I think I saw that the Badlander offers a 25W.

With lower-wattage options, am I going to get darker tones, and/or, will any of these 50's be ok in a smallish room?

Depends what you mean by bedroom volume. The Multi's sound great at loud TV volumes. If you turn it down to whisper volumes it's too bright and thin. As far as wattage, there's no real appreciable difference between 50w and 100w in the bedroom - both are loud. 100w will sound slightly fuller. If you want true baby sleeping in the other room bedroom volumes you'll be much more satisfied with an Ax Fx III.

...or a Mark series amp which don't fall apart at low volumes.

 

[CoG]

Depends what you mean by bedroom volume. The Multi's sound great at loud TV volumes. If you turn it down to whisper volumes it's too bright and thin. As far as wattage, there's no real appreciable difference between 50w and 100w in the bedroom - both are loud. 100w will sound slightly fuller. If you want true baby sleeping in the other room bedroom volumes you'll be much more satisfied with an Ax Fx III.

...or a Mark series amp which don't fall apart at low volumes.

and with a Mark you're still gonna have that flat, dead, 'not moving the speaker cone' thing.

What he said, even more so. I only ever had a MW plugged into my rig, which has a load box and IRs, so I can't say how it does at actual low volume. But these days there are a bunch of better solutions than buying a 100W amp and never turning it past 0.5, or a 20 watt amp that's still too loud and doesn't sound as good as its big brother. I can't tell you what a game changer a load box/IR/monitor setup is.

 

[bandit2013]

what is that flat dead "not moving the speaker cone" thing? Also, which mark are you referencing?

Ok, bedroom levels, well that's a bust. Not going to happen with the MWDR or Roadster if that is your deal unless you run it into a load attenuator unit. Recto's in general have a specific area where they wake up and to hit that sweet spot it is not bedroom friendly. Also, it is much of a different type of gain structure due to the cold clipper circuit than it would be for a Badlander or Mark amp. The Badlander does have an advantage over the Marks and Dual Rectos as you can get a decent level of overdrive at a stupidly low volume output level. Still not bedroom level compliant. Along the line of the Cab-clone amps, the Badlander and the Mark VII do have an advantage as you use the amp without the speaker connected and make use of headphones if that is your desire. JP2C and the Triple Crown series can do that too but does not have the IR loaded cab clone so results may vary. (TC and JP have a switch to turn off the output to the speaker, BAD and MKVII it is built into the speaker jacks).
I would not consider relying on an internal load to run the amp in silent mode for extended periods of time. It is a cool feature, but that energy has to be dissipated somewhere. The TC100 as well as its older brother the RA100 have a built in attenuator. TC50 does not have that. The RA100 is just a bit different as it works to increase the power tube saturation. The TC100 is more or less an attenuator. Still, the TC series is more of a vintage sound, much thinner than the rest of the beasts.

Mesa amps are designed to perform live, in a mix with other instruments like drums and bass. Some can run in lower power modes but do not be fooled, they are still loud. Those that can run silent modes (no speaker) may work but could eventually stress some internal components. For low volume practice or use of headphones, it may be more beneficial to have a modeling amp than an actual tube amp. Some of the units out there can do a decent job. It depends on how deep your pockets are and what actually works out to be the better unit. Those modeling amps are great for recording but may not be all that great for live performances.

As for attenuators, they do work but most of the time they can alter the tone or choke off the desired character at the expense of exhausting the power tubes. It depends on the amp in question. Attenuators or load boxes shorten the power tube life since one is more apt to push the envelope on the power section to get that desired sound but at a reduced volume level due to the attenuator.

Perhaps the tiny terrors like the mini marks, mini recto or the lunchbox sized amps may work out. Yeah EL84 power, they are decent tubes, just different. Some of the Dyna-watt amps (what Mesa calls their circuit) may deliver more than you think.

When it comes to bedroom levels, I have no clue what to recommend that would be in that range of compliance.

 

[SonVolt]

and with a Mark you're still gonna have that flat, dead, 'not moving the speaker cone' thing.

What he said, even more so. I only ever had a MW plugged into my rig, which has a load box and IRs, so I can't say how it does at actual low volume. But these days there are a bunch of better solutions than buying a 100W amp and never turning it past 0.5, or a 20 watt amp that's still too loud and doesn't sound as good as its big brother. I can't tell you what a game changer a load box/IR/monitor setup is.

A Mark at whisper volumes still sounds pretty kill. They have that hi-fi thing already, so not much difference btwn my Mark IV at low volumes and Axe Fx III to be honest. My Triple and Double at low volumes isn't even worth turning on.

 

[bowery969]

When it comes to bedroom levels, I have no clue what to recommend that would be in that range of compliance.

So, I got my DC-2 back yesterday, pots cleaned, new power tubes.

Thanks for putting it in perspective of 'meant to played live in a mix'. I am a drummer first and a guitar owner second. I am unsure I'll ever be gig-ready on guitar. But I like how tubes sound over anything solid state. And I am coming to consider myself a tone chaser.

My DC-2 does well at a 'loud TV volume'. I guess for me bedroom level is a misnomer. I rarely play when the missus is around - I usually give it a good crank. Usually well over and above a loud TV level. This morning I waited until 8am to turn it up to respect the neighbors, and I live in a standalone house.

If 'loud TV volume' (or somewhat louder) is the goal line, do any and all of the 100- and 50W models work for my needs?

 

[CoG]

what is that flat dead "not moving the speaker cone" thing? Also, which mark are you referencing?

I mean that once you get into TV/loud conversation volume, speakers meant for 'normal' performance volume aren't giving their best either no matter what you're playing into them. I love Marks

 

[rarebitusa]

FWIW spent a good deal of time messing with the original Captor and silent recording. It was never a perfect solution, attempting to use it as an attenuator always seemed to color the tone in some sort of negative way, mostly a thinning out of the overall tone with increased harshness. As a silent load for recording it was better cause it could get tweaked after the fact with the Wall of Sound plugin but real time it got complicated to monitor. I guess the Captor IR was a better solution for my needs but the previous experience left me questioning dumping more $ into a Two Notes solution. The other choices like an Ox, Waza or Freyette were even more pricey.

Went down a technical rabbit hole and ended up modifying the Captor reactive load design (single order to 2nd order) and that improved it. Still have a project and parts to build a custom reactive load from scratch. However I found that using a volume pedal in the loop was acceptable in limiting volume without any tonal sacrifice.



But now... I have to give it up for the BAD Cabclone IR, which was done in partnership with Two Notes. It sounds really good to my ears and since my setup routinely runs the other amps preamps to an amps power section, the recording thing now is much less effort.

 

[bandit2013]

So, I got my DC-2 back yesterday, pots cleaned, new power tubes.

Thanks for putting it in perspective of 'meant to played live in a mix'. I am a drummer first and a guitar owner second. I am unsure I'll ever be gig-ready on guitar. But I like how tubes sound over anything solid state. And I am coming to consider myself a tone chaser.

My DC-2 does well at a 'loud TV volume'. I guess for me bedroom level is a misnomer. I rarely play when the missus is around - I usually give it a good crank. Usually well over and above a loud TV level. This morning I waited until 8am to turn it up to respect the neighbors, and I live in a standalone house.

If 'loud TV volume' (or somewhat louder) is the goal line, do any and all of the 100- and 50W models work for my needs?

The Dual Rectifier amps are in a league by themselves. Roadster, MWDR both have the 50W power modes that can be set for each channel. Not sure about the Trem-o-verb. Most of the older versions before the MWDR came out, other than the Roadster or Road King, ran at a single power mode. Dual Recs were 100W, Triple Recs were 150W, and the single rec was 50W. Not sure if the Stiletto line had switchable power modes or if they were also fixed. ACE is 50W, Deuce was 100W and the Trident was 150W (?). It has been a while since I ran the MWDR. You can dial it back for lower output volume and get away with it at the 100W power setting. Even the Roadster can be run low enough but it sort of takes away from the full potential of the amp's characteristics when using it at gig level. Not at Stadium level, but it could probably do that too. Even the Badlander can rip with the best of the amps but is a bit easier to get a hot sound at a reduced volume as it is more of a hybrid mark/recto thing. When dropping the power down to the 50W, it does take on a different character but depends on how you are driving the amp. TV volume, not sure how loud you run your TV's. From someone else's perspective, it would be too loud. From the player's perspective, it is not loud enough. Depends on what you are used to in terms of volume. I have no experience with the DC series so it is difficult to relate it to the other amps I am familiar with.

I would rather run at 100W and get to feel the music let alone hear it. Sure the guitar is more immediate and you get that chest pounding feeling, When it comes to bass, there is something different, hammer out a strong note, the wait for it to bloom, Sure you hear it first but then you get this wall of air movement that increases then decreases as the note begins to decay.

Some of the later versions of the Mark amps are tamable at lower volumes. The older models are running at full tilt once you dial in the control past 3 (I assume that would be like the 9am-10am setting on the controls without numbers).

Amps that have the global volume and solo boost feature can be adjusted enough to get a reduced volume sound at its full power setting. MWDR, Roadster, TC, Mark V90. You will not be driving the power tubes hard enough though so the output character will be slightly different than it would be at gig level. The JP2C and the Mark VII do not have the global volume control feature, but the output volume is more useable at lower settings when comparing to the older models dating back to 1980 up to 2008 before the Mark V90 came out.

Badlander, yep, you can run it at a lower volume and still get plenty of distortion out of it since it does not fully rely on the power tube distortion to complete its sound. It does not have that dark tone as a MWDR or Roadster.

I am sort of the opposite, guitar player turned drummer. Not all that good at it but better than the other two guitar players in the group.

I went a little overboard with this kit. It just sounds so good though. Tama Star-Classic Birtch/Walnut. It shares the same hardware as the Star (top shelf drum kit from Tama). I wanted the cast hoops and not the formed and folded thin metal hoops that most kits use these days. The only drum that is different is the one 20inch kick drum, that is a Birtch/Bubinga, it is the one on the left, The one on the right is the 22 inch kick drum.

This was a few steps up from the Gretch Catalina Maple kit I had started as my first acoustic set. Before this, I was using a Rolland TD-15k E-drum kit. That made things easy to record. Do not have that option anymore.

The starter drum set.

 

[bandit2013]

I would personally take a trip to a Mesa dealer (Guitar Cener is now selling Mesa again). If they have the MWDR, Badlander, and other amps including the mini recto and mark V. Try them out. Hint: download the user manual from Mesa and print out the suggested settings pages or take a picture with your cell phone so you have some sort of reference to dial the amps in. First time I tried the Roadster, I did not like it and came home with the Mark V90. The MWDR is a little easier to dial in but that could be due to my familiarity with the Roadster. I did eventually get it 2 years after I bought the Mark V90. You have an idea what you want. I would also take a look at the other Mesa amps as well.

MWDR is a good start, the Badlander is the median between the Dual Rec and the Mark amps.
No harm looking for used gear too. You do not have to buy anything, it is just a way to try it out first before you decide which is right for you.

 

[bowery969]

I would personally take a trip to a Mesa dealer (Guitar Cener is now selling Mesa again). If they have the MWDR, Badlander, and other amps including the mini recto and mark V. Try them out. Hint: download the user manual from Mesa and print out the suggested settings pages or take a picture with your cell phone so you have some sort of reference to dial the amps in. First time I tried the Roadster, I did not like it and came home with the Mark V90. The MWDR is a little easier to dial in but that could be due to my familiarity with the Roadster. I did eventually get it 2 years after I bought the Mark V90. You have an idea what you want. I would also take a look at the other Mesa amps as well.

MWDR is a good start, the Badlander is the median between the Dual Rec and the Mark amps.
No harm looking for used gear too. You do not have to buy anything, it is just a way to try it out first before you decide which is right for you.

Good call. Thanks for all the info and suggestions.

That's a nice kit man. Play on!