Dual Rec Dirty Tone

[jdurso]

It'd probably behoove you guys to just drop it all together. You could probably argue for the next 10 pages, and frankly, I know I'll read it all instead of mowing the lawn. So really guys, do it for me.

Werd.

I have things I have to do today, and I'm reading this instead of doing them.

Its not an arguement its a discussion.... but glad we could entertain you guys, feel free to jump in if you want.

 

[jdurso]

Take a TS808 and an OD808 side by side and hear the difference. Yes they use the same chip but there is more emphasis on the mids with the TS808... just like theres more emphasis on the mids with the OD9. You can argue a placebo effect all you want but if you cant hear the difference in person than you have already started on the path of permanant hearing loss. Again no one is saying the OD808 isn't a clone, but it is different.

I do find it weird for a guitarist to be so focused on recorded tone when its actually your room tone that is should matter first and foremost. I agree that there are a lot of guitarists out there that have terrible tone and is probably a nightmare for a recording engineer to record but thats what they get paid for. But for those willing to go to the level of spending tons and time and money on getting their grail tone, i'm willing to bet 90%+ would have a desirable recording tone already their in their live tone. Then again if you feel so strongly about these recording techniques why not dump SUNY and go to Fullsail?

Regarding the first paragraph, I haven't tried them back to back before, but given the extremely high tolerances for variations in the components that make up those pedals, there's the possibility that another OD808 would sound far more similar to the TS808. Or maybe they are different, but I doubt by much.

As for the second paragraph, to quote myself:

Thus, I feel you can "get away" with a lot more with a room tone, but I also feel that any tonal change made for the benefit of a recording (especially about fitting in the overall mix) will almost always also be the best (or close to it) for live tones.

And I say "almost always" because I can imagine there would be times where certain amp settings, for example, would work better in a live environment than a recording, but every change I've made for the improvement of my recorded tone I feel has also improved my room tone, just not as drastically. And as far as I'm concerned, the only merit of recording schools like Full Sail is getting hands-on experience with high-end gear; recording and mixing techniques can just as easily be learned through books, forums of knowledgeable people, and of course practicing. And SUNY Oneonta actually does have an Audio Arts Production minor, which was plenty to get me started.

As for the OD808 and the TS808... before arguing internal components and the similarity in design, please take one of each and compair them back to back with the same amp settings, same cabinet, same mic, etc. You'll hear the difference in the emphasis on the mids change between the two. I wouldnt assume anything you have never experienced.

The Fullsail comment was a joke... you'd be better off finding a local studio where you could be a fly on the wall.

 

[Metaltastic]

although i do think you fail to see the big picture of a rig and come off like there is one way of doing things because reputable engineers say so. And before you get things twisted I'm not saying thats what you meant because I will give you more credit than that, its just how your posts come off.

Actually, I think it would be more accurate to say I come off like I'll always trust the opinion of an engineer/guitarist-engineer on guitar tone over someone who is a guitarist only, and will dubiously regard any piece of gear until I hear recorded clips of it that sound good and change my mind (which has most definitely happened before). And I'd say that just about sums up my stance!

 

[Metaltastic]

Ya, guitar tone is a lot like anything creative. Some people should not be allowed to design anything because they are terrible at it! Studio engineers exist to save these people from winning a guitar darwin award for bad tone. Personally, I want to learn more about amp micing because I suspect this will help me with micing my amp, even in live situations. Just sticking a mic anywhere in front of the amp definitely isn't the best way to transport my tone to the audience and it is a terrible loss to have it show up as a faint shadow of what it sounds like in person out in the audience.

Honestly, tons of great tones have been recorded just with one SM57 pointing straight on perpendicular to the grille around the spot where the dustcap of the speaker meets the surrounding cone (that's the only configuration Andy Sneap has used in the last few years); all the rest is in the source of the tone IMO! (all the clips I've posted in this thread have been that way) Assuming your gear is up to par too, of course - see your sadly accurate anecdote about the dude with the single-coil strat! :shock: And I love the Robin Hood notion of stealing gear from the rich (and stupid) and giving it to the poor (and not so stupid :lol: )

 

[jdurso]

although i do think you fail to see the big picture of a rig and come off like there is one way of doing things because reputable engineers say so. And before you get things twisted I'm not saying thats what you meant because I will give you more credit than that, its just how your posts come off.

Actually, I think it would be more accurate to say I come off like I'll always trust the opinion of an engineer/guitarist-engineer on guitar tone over someone who is a guitarist only, and will dubiously regard any piece of gear until I hear recorded clips of it that sound good and change my mind (which has most definitely happened before). And I'd say that just about sums up my stance!

Ok there kiddo... just remember to not take yourself too seriously :wink:

 

[fishyfishfish]

Cork smells funny.

 

[jdurso]

Cork smells funny.

Depends... was it Brazilian or West African cork? They smell very different and can make a huge difference in your tone :wink:

 

[Nitrobattery]

are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

 

[YellowJacket]

Ya, guitar tone is a lot like anything creative. Some people should not be allowed to design anything because they are terrible at it! Studio engineers exist to save these people from winning a guitar darwin award for bad tone. Personally, I want to learn more about amp micing because I suspect this will help me with micing my amp, even in live situations. Just sticking a mic anywhere in front of the amp definitely isn't the best way to transport my tone to the audience and it is a terrible loss to have it show up as a faint shadow of what it sounds like in person out in the audience.

Honestly, tons of great tones have been recorded just with one SM57 pointing straight on perpendicular to the grille around the spot where the dustcap of the speaker meets the surrounding cone (that's the only configuration Andy Sneap has used in the last few years); all the rest is in the source of the tone IMO! (all the clips I've posted in this thread have been that way) Assuming your gear is up to par too, of course - see your sadly accurate anecdote about the dude with the single-coil strat! :shock: And I love the Robin Hood notion of stealing gear from the rich (and stupid) and giving it to the poor (and not so stupid :lol: )

Hey, are there any guitarists here with useful superpowers!? We have a position open for one 'tone-man' to rid the world of the evils of bad guitar sound!

When we were last recording my dual, we had the cab miced with 2 c1000s and one audiotechnica wide diaphram mic. We placed the audiotechnica close, one c1000s close and the other about a metre away. (3 feet for all you yanks) So you say place the amp in front of where the dustcap meets the cone, huh? I've usually seen it placed right at the far outside edge of the cone. SM57s are great mics. I bet they aren't too expensive off of ebay either!

 

[jdurso]

are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

yes... yes i am

 

[Metaltastic]

When we were last recording my dual, we had the cab miced with 2 c1000s and one audiotechnica wide diaphram mic. We placed the audiotechnica close, one c1000s close and the other about a metre away. (3 feet for all you yanks) So you say place the amp in front of where the dustcap meets the cone, huh? I've usually seen it placed right at the far outside edge of the cone. SM57s are great mics. I bet they aren't too expensive off of ebay either!

Jeebus, that's a lot of mics! Whether it sounds good is of course all that matters in the end, but I definitely think it's best to master getting the best tone one can with one mic before moving on to multi-mic'ing! (assuming you ever feel the need to, many don't) And the 57 is also definitely the best one to start with IMO; some people hate on it, but my experience has been they're just not used to how an amp sounds when recorded (mainly that the fizz largely disappears in a mix) or their settings need to be tweaked! And yeah, I really like to be either half on/half off the dustcap or even like 70 on/30 off, cuz it really brings more bite, and things can get fuzzy real fast if you move further off. That's more of a preference thing though, but still, the absolute farthest I'd wanna go is like 30 on/70 off!

Then again, this is all strictly from a high-gain metal perspective, but still, the principles would apply to rock too I'd imagine! (especially the principle of learning to crawl before you walk )

 

[YellowJacket]

I think I like the sound of the wide diaphram AudioTechnica mic the best. I looked up the actually model and it is "Audio Technica AT4040 Cardioid Condenser Studio Microphone". We studied a bit about micing instruments in my composition courses at university where we studied different placement patterns. There were usually close mics as well as omnidirectional ones that were placed at a significant distance to capture a more wet sound. Of course, in these instances we are talking about working with classical instruments such as strings, piano, cello, voice, etc, where the sound of the room (performance hall) is desirable and only adds to the timbre of the sound. The argument here is that the sound we hear when playing instruments is the sound several metres away from an instrument so for a more live sound, the timbres are mixed. Here are a couple of examples of this micing procedure.
http://pumpernickel.ca/music/Anorexic%20-%20Eavan%20Boland%20-%20Paul%20Levasseur.mp3 (voice and piano)
http://pumpernickel.ca/music/Prelude%20for%20Unaccompanied%20Violoncello.mp3 (Solo Cello)
(Sadly the website is massively out of date and needs A LOT of work)
I'm pretty sure we used the AT 4040s close and Neumans for the distance ones for the artsong. For the 'Cello Prelude, we used the AT 4040 for close micing and c1000s for the ambient mics.

I wonder if some of the difference with recorded tones when compared to live tones is because when we play guitar, we hear the room and we hear our tone at a distance from our amps. I mean studio sound for rock bands has become its own aesthetic and in my opinion it is a rather artificially created one! This is probably why guitarists have trouble hearing their recorded sound for the first time. Anyway, the best clip I've ever heard of my dual is when I close miced it with one of these wide diaphram mics. It sounded absolutely massive.

Oh, I should mention that I absolutely loved your clips of the Tiny Terror. I listened to them with decent speakers and they sound creamy and huge. The dual sounds cold by comparison! (I haven't gotten a sound that I really like when playing a Tiny Terror at the local music store. The lack of dials annoys me since it is hard to curb the stinging highs) I have to say though, I am curious to check out those SM57s. I do have a decent soundcard on my computer so I just need an XLR to TRS cable or a mixing console.

 

[TREC]

I dunno, I think it works ok here And Andy Sneap used similar settings on the tone for Nevermore's "Dead Heart in a Dead World" (though I actually never even really noticed until after I had figured them out myself through a ton of tweaking and posting of comparison clips for feedback, and he was able to do it pretty much right off the bat - godammit :lol: Oh well, at least it provided an excellent learning experience for developing my ears!) Obviously in the room with all the sound bouncing around and chunky volume and what not, you can get away with a lot more, but with a mic up to the cone of course the subtle differences get magnified, and having the treble above 12:00 makes it sound like a beehive IMO! (case in point, the clips I recorded here are with the treble at like 1:00, and presence actually around 10:00)

Here's the exact settings I used for that first clip (which is the tone for my upcoming EP), it also has a ~2 db cut at 6k to get rid of too much fizz (a bit is still there, of course, but it mostly disappears in a mix, and cutting it any more just makes it sound weird and unnatural IMO - a necessary evil of high gain!)

Wow mate, this sounds amazing!