Dual Rec Dirty Tone

[YellowJacket]

Don't forget the guitars involved here. We're talking about one guy "mikey" with a PRS and another "MetalTastic" with an Ibanez. If we are going to tier things here in order of importance for tone creation we have 1) guitar, 2) pickups, 3) amp, 4) speaker / cab, 5) power tubes, 6) preamp tubes and finally, 7) OD Pedals, Stomp Boxes, etc. So basically, Mikey isn't going to dial in the same settings as metaltastic unless he is using the same guitar since both instruments will have a unique voice otherwise. A simple example is a Gibson LP vs a Gibson SG. The SG is really a 'better' guitar for a dual since the LP has such a huge low end. Basically, an SG player who wants to get my tone has to pull up the bass significantly to equal my sound since I dial it in lower to compensate for my guitar. For my tastes, I don't say Mikey's tone is undergained, but I do agree that it is brittle to my ears.

For arguments sake, tubes make a BIG difference in sound in my experience. Power tubes can shape tone significantly so I don't see why the preamp tubes wouldn't play a part as well. Basically, you have to cover all your bases to get what you want before you start mucking with the signal chain by adding pedals. Pedals seem like a bandaid solution to me otherwise.

I personally never run the presence on my dual above about a quarter because I really find those frequencies are pronounced enough already by the aggressive highs of the Celestion v30s found in many Mesa cabs. While the v30s are very tight and impressive sounding speakers, I personally find that the highs become very fatiguing over time. I've ground this axe about blending speakers for quite some time but I don't know what a metal player would combine with a v30 that is tight enough to maintain clarity in tone. Any other common (and good) celestion speakers such as a G12m, G12H, G12T-75, tend to have much more cone breakup which is better for styles with less gain. (I personally don't like the Classic Lead for my tastes) There is a rigs and tones thread where a guy posts a clip of metal with a Dual Rec running through a Marshall 1960a (G12T - 75s) so this speaker type might work in combination with v30s but I imagine it might be to floppy of a sound for metal.


Mikey, since you play hard rock, not metal, you may find you like a speaker combination as well. I personally love a flavour of greenback along with v30s. The greenbacks are a high breakup and super creamy speaker. They do have a farty low end but the low end is tightened up by the v30 while the greenbacks mellow out the highs of the v30s. Although my personal favourite is a g12m, the g12Hs apparently have a more pronounced mid and a huge low end which balances v30s very well.

 

[mikey383]

Mikey, since you play hard rock, not metal, you may find you like a speaker combination as well. I personally love a flavour of greenback along with v30s. The greenbacks are a high breakup and super creamy speaker. They do have a farty low end but the low end is tightened up by the v30 while the greenbacks mellow out the highs of the v30s. Although my personal favourite is a g12m, the g12Hs apparently have a more pronounced mid and a huge low end which balances v30s very well.

I've given that a thought several times. I'm very satisfied with my tone now, but it's one of those things where I may end up liking it more...I just don't know. If I do anything with Greenbacks though, I'll probably just buy a Marshall cab loaded with them.

 

[Metaltastic]

Basically, you have to cover all your bases to get what you want before you start mucking with the signal chain by adding pedals. Pedals seem like a bandaid solution to me otherwise.

Using a Tube Screamer has been a tried and true technique for recording high-gain guitars for years, and it's likely almost every modern metal tone had one in the chain. For an example of the awesomeness (but subtlety) of the effect of one used properly...

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/equipment/514040-krank-revolution-without-ts-samples-inside.html

Wait for the low note palm mutes to come in, that's where it's really obvious IMO!

 

[Metaltastic]

And here's comparison clips I made awhile ago with my old Tiny Terror through my Mesa Stiletto cab:

TT without TS.mp3
TT with TS.mp3

And I post these begrudgingly because I realize how annoying that squelching sound on the fast gallops is (a problem with my picking technique that I've since rectified), but here's a test with my Dual Rec through Recto cab:

Without TS.mp3
With TS.mp3

Again, small differences, but that annoying flub on the low notes is just sucked right out with the TS!

 

[jdurso]

Basically, you have to cover all your bases to get what you want before you start mucking with the signal chain by adding pedals. Pedals seem like a bandaid solution to me otherwise.

Using a Tube Screamer has been a tried and true technique for recording high-gain guitars for years, and it's likely almost every modern metal tone had one in the chain. For an example of the awesomeness (but subtlety) of the effect of one used properly...

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/equipment/514040-krank-revolution-without-ts-samples-inside.html

Wait for the low note palm mutes to come in, that's where it's really obvious IMO!

Yeah it is a tried and true method but how many recording engineers do you know that have or want to put in the time to into finding that perfect combination of guitar/picks, amp, tubes and cab? And then have to do that again with another style guitar and/or amplifier? There aren't many if any at all that will spend their time their so for them using a TS pedal which they know from the start will get them a desirable effect, is a much easier solution.

The thing is most people here have the time/money to try different guitar/pickup/amp/tubes/cab combination to find THEIR tone. The thing i find kind of funny is that if you were to poll the Recto users here on what boosts they're using for their rectos, most would tell you that either they don't need one or your top 3 boosts would be the Maxon OD808, Fulltone OCD and Xotic BB Preamp. All ODs that don't overly emphasize mids like the tube screamer clones do.

 

[mikey383]

The thing i find kind of funny is that if you were to poll the Recto users here on what boosts they're using for their rectos, most would tell you that either they don't need one or your top 3 boosts would be the Maxon OD808, Fulltone OCD and Xotic BB Preamp. All ODs that don't overly emphasize mids like the tube screamer clones do.

Isn't the Maxon od808 the same as an Ibanez TS808? I thought it was the same technology that Ibanez first produced but outsourced to Maxon.

I have my Digitech GSP2101 set up so that I get a gain boost, but the EQ is set so that I am neither boosting nor cutting any frequencies. It's set at a moderate boost, but I also have a lot more room to go. I also have a TS clone that I built that I'm going to start using.

 

[jdurso]

The thing i find kind of funny is that if you were to poll the Recto users here on what boosts they're using for their rectos, most would tell you that either they don't need one or your top 3 boosts would be the Maxon OD808, Fulltone OCD and Xotic BB Preamp. All ODs that don't overly emphasize mids like the tube screamer clones do.

Isn't the Maxon od808 the same as an Ibanez TS808? I thought it was the same technology that Ibanez first produced but outsourced to Maxon.

I have my Digitech GSP2101 set up so that I get a gain boost, but the EQ is set so that I am neither boosting nor cutting any frequencies. It's set at a moderate boost, but I also have a lot more room to go. I also have a TS clone that I built that I'm going to start using.

TS has more emphasis on mids much the same way the OD09 from Maxon has more emphasis on the mids. Thats not to say there is no mid bump in the OD808 or even the OCD, but its not as pronounced as the TS. The OCD in LP mode ends up being really transparent in the way it effects the eq of the signal so i wouldnt even throw it in the same category as a TS. The BB is probably the most transparent of the 3 in terms of the mids and the fact that you can adjust both bass and treble in my experience really sets it apart aside from its transparency.

But my point was more if you compare what most users gravitate towards and what Mr. Metaltastic says is THE tried and true method because thats what his recording buddies swear by, you'll find very different solutions. Thats not to say one is right or better, just that there are more than one solution and it will all come down to preference.

 

[Metaltastic]

Well first off, the Maxon OD808 is in fact a Tube Screamer clone, and I'm not certain what your source is for thinking it sounds any different or has any less of a mid-hump than the other varieties - from the Musicians Friend description:

The Maxon OD808 Overdrive is made by the same Japanese company which crafted the original overdrive circuit in a green stompbox that's been obsessed over by guitarists for the past 30 years. It uses the identical circuit found in the original employing the same JRC4558 IC chip for smooth, natural overdrive similar to a cranked-up tube amp.

The 4558 is the op-amp that high-end Tube Screamer hypers always ejaculate over, even though it can be found all the way down in my "lowly" TS7 (PROOF! )

And as for guitarists finding their own tone and such, well, I've always been skeptical about that - l feel that playing a rig live and in the room smears over WAY more details than recording it, because close-mic'ing that sucker in a studio environment puts it under the ultimate microscope, and drags all the worst aspects into the light, where they can't be obscured by such factors as huge volume, low-end thunk (it can be intoxicating, I can't deny), reflections EVERYWHERE, and of course, the thrill of wielding such power. Thus, I feel you can "get away" with a lot more with a room tone, but I also feel that any tonal change made for the benefit of a recording (especially about fitting in the overall mix) will almost always also be the best (or close to it) for live tones. Not to mention the extreme potential for placebo effect (which is present in recording too, of course, but at least one can get many other opinions to confirm/deny it by submitting clips in a blind test and gauging the results).

And that of course assumes that the guitarist has any idea what good tone is in the first place; I doubt I'm alone in having experienced countless shows where the guitarist is running a Metal Zone into the clean channel of his Rectifier (that sounds like balls), cranking up a Sonic Maximizer in the loop (that sounds like balls), or just tweaking the amp to sound more like balls then ever thought possible. And since they barely know anything about concepts of mixing, it's kinda hard to blame them! And the horror stories I have heard from recording engineers who deal with guitarists that come in with "their own tone", and being absolutely dumbfounded by how awful it sounds; as I said, there are plenty of guitarists who do have some idea what they're doing, and then plenty that do not! And to be clear, I still consider myself a guitarist first, recording engineer second, but the latter has definitely had a huge influence (for the better IMO) on my philosophies as the former!

 

[Metaltastic]

However, to finish the thought, since as I said I feel you can get away with a lot more in a live environment, feel free to make some unorthodox choices in your gear/settings in the hopes of defining "your own tone", and maybe they'll even work well enough in the room - just try not to take it too hard if you go in for a recording and the engineer politely but firmly insists on taking DI's for re-amping

EDIT: Just wanted to draw attention to the word "if" above, as I am open to (just skeptical of) the possibility that maybe a guitarists' "own tone" will sound good!

 

[Nitrobattery]

I personally find prosciutto to be the very best in sandwich meats.

 

[jdurso]

Well first off, the Maxon OD808 is in fact a Tube Screamer clone, and I'm not certain what your source is for thinking it sounds any different or has any less of a mid-hump than the other varieties - from the Musicians Friend description:

The Maxon OD808 Overdrive is made by the same Japanese company which crafted the original overdrive circuit in a green stompbox that's been obsessed over by guitarists for the past 30 years. It uses the identical circuit found in the original employing the same JRC4558 IC chip for smooth, natural overdrive similar to a cranked-up tube amp.

The 4558 is the op-amp that high-end Tube Screamer hypers always ejaculate over, even though it can be found all the way down in my "lowly" TS7 (PROOF! )

And as for guitarists finding their own tone and such, well, I've always been skeptical about that - l feel that playing a rig live and in the room smears over WAY more details than recording it, because close-mic'ing that sucker in a studio environment puts it under the ultimate microscope, and drags all the worst aspects into the light, where they can't be obscured by such factors as huge volume, low-end thunk (it can be intoxicating, I can't deny), reflections EVERYWHERE, and of course, the thrill of wielding such power. Thus, I feel you can "get away" with a lot more with a room tone, but I also feel that any tonal change made for the benefit of a recording (especially about fitting in the overall mix) will almost always also be the best (or close to it) for live tones. Not to mention the extreme potential for placebo effect (which is present in recording too, of course, but at least one can get many other opinions to confirm/deny it by submitting clips in a blind test and gauging the results).

And that of course assumes that the guitarist has any idea what good tone is in the first place; I doubt I'm alone in having experienced countless shows where the guitarist is running a Metal Zone into the clean channel of his Rectifier (that sounds like balls), cranking up a Sonic Maximizer in the loop (that sounds like balls), or just tweaking the amp to sound more like balls then ever thought possible. And since they barely know anything about concepts of mixing, it's kinda hard to blame them! And the horror stories I have heard from recording engineers who deal with guitarists that come in with "their own tone", and being absolutely dumbfounded by how awful it sounds; as I said, there are plenty of guitarists who do have some idea what they're doing, and then plenty that do not! And to be clear, I still consider myself a guitarist first, recording engineer second, but the latter has definitely had a huge influence (for the better IMO) on my philosophies as the former!

Take a TS808 and an OD808 side by side and hear the difference. Yes they use the same chip but there is more emphasis on the mids with the TS808... just like theres more emphasis on the mids with the OD9. You can argue a placebo effect all you want but if you cant hear the difference in person than you have already started on the path of permanant hearing loss. Again no one is saying the OD808 isn't a clone, but it is different.

I do find it weird for a guitarist to be so focused on recorded tone when its actually your room tone that is should matter first and foremost. I agree that there are a lot of guitarists out there that have terrible tone and is probably a nightmare for a recording engineer to record but thats what they get paid for. But for those willing to go to the level of spending tons and time and money on getting their grail tone, i'm willing to bet 90%+ would have a desirable recording tone already their in their live tone. Then again if you feel so strongly about these recording techniques why not dump SUNY and go to Fullsail?

 

[jdurso]

However, to finish the thought, since as I said I feel you can get away with a lot more in a live environment, feel free to make some unorthodox choices in your gear/settings in the hopes of defining "your own tone", and maybe they'll even work well enough in the room - just try not to take it too hard if you go in for a recording and the engineer politely but firmly insists on taking DI's for re-amping

EDIT: Just wanted to draw attention to the word "if" above, as I am open to (just skeptical of) the possibility that maybe a guitarists' "own tone" will sound good!

Its amazing how they convert to cork sniffing at such early ages these days.

 

[jdurso]

However, to finish the thought, since as I said I feel you can get away with a lot more in a live environment, feel free to make some unorthodox choices in your gear/settings in the hopes of defining "your own tone", and maybe they'll even work well enough in the room - just try not to take it too hard if you go in for a recording and the engineer politely but firmly insists on taking DI's for re-amping

EDIT: Just wanted to draw attention to the word "if" above, as I am open to (just skeptical of) the possibility that maybe a guitarists' "own tone" will sound good!

BTW... how is tube experiementation, choosing the right cabinet or using an OD or boost thats not a direct TS clone "unorthodox"?

 

[Nitrobattery]

I do find it weird for a guitarist to be so focused on recorded tone when its actually your room tone that is should matter first and foremost. I agree that there are a lot of guitarists out there that have terrible tone and is probably a nightmare for a recording engineer to record but thats what they get paid for. But for those willing to go to the level of spending tons and time and money on getting their grail tone, i'm willing to bet 90%+ would have a desirable recording tone already their in their live tone. Then again if you feel so strongly about these recording techniques why not dump SUNY and go to Fullsail?

I'm not trying to provoke or be rude, just a few comments....


Room tone varies with each room. Coming from a guy who has played in front of crowds of 3,000+ and crowds of 15 in a small bar, focusing on your "room" tone is kind of a silly statement. My settings vary dramatically depending on where I'm playing, how loud I'm playing, how close I am to people, and the quality of the PA I'm getting miced through.

As far as a studio tone, I don't use settings even close to my live sound when I'm recording.

Fullsail is a joke school.

I've found that preamp tube and power tube combinations make a HUGE impact on your sound. That's just me though.

It'd probably behoove you guys to just drop it all together. You could probably argue for the next 10 pages, and frankly, I know I'll read it all instead of mowing the lawn. So really guys, do it for me.

 

[Metaltastic]

Take a TS808 and an OD808 side by side and hear the difference. Yes they use the same chip but there is more emphasis on the mids with the TS808... just like theres more emphasis on the mids with the OD9. You can argue a placebo effect all you want but if you cant hear the difference in person than you have already started on the path of permanant hearing loss. Again no one is saying the OD808 isn't a clone, but it is different.

I do find it weird for a guitarist to be so focused on recorded tone when its actually your room tone that is should matter first and foremost. I agree that there are a lot of guitarists out there that have terrible tone and is probably a nightmare for a recording engineer to record but thats what they get paid for. But for those willing to go to the level of spending tons and time and money on getting their grail tone, i'm willing to bet 90%+ would have a desirable recording tone already their in their live tone. Then again if you feel so strongly about these recording techniques why not dump SUNY and go to Fullsail?

Regarding the first paragraph, I haven't tried them back to back before, but given the extremely high tolerances for variations in the components that make up those pedals, there's the possibility that another OD808 would sound far more similar to the TS808. Or maybe they are different, but I doubt by much.

As for the second paragraph, to quote myself:

Thus, I feel you can "get away" with a lot more with a room tone, but I also feel that any tonal change made for the benefit of a recording (especially about fitting in the overall mix) will almost always also be the best (or close to it) for live tones.

And I say "almost always" because I can imagine there would be times where certain amp settings, for example, would work better in a live environment than a recording, but every change I've made for the improvement of my recorded tone I feel has also improved my room tone, just not as drastically. And as far as I'm concerned, the only merit of recording schools like Full Sail is getting hands-on experience with high-end gear; recording and mixing techniques can just as easily be learned through books, forums of knowledgeable people, and of course practicing. And SUNY Oneonta actually does have an Audio Arts Production minor, which was plenty to get me started.

 

[Metaltastic]

Its amazing how they convert to cork sniffing at such early ages these days.

Godammit, I wish this forum had a multi-quote function - anyway, isn't cork-sniffing being obsessed with nothing but the finest and most expensive gear? That's always how I thought of it, and I never once have mentioned price (hell, I use a $40 TS7), but if by cork-sniffer you mean someone who is very discerning about getting the best recorded tone he can, then guilty as charged. 8) And as to your second statement, I honestly didn't mean to imply that those things were unorthodox, I was more referring to the more extreme interpretations of "finding your own tone" that some people might have.

 

[mikey383]

It'd probably behoove you guys to just drop it all together. You could probably argue for the next 10 pages, and frankly, I know I'll read it all instead of mowing the lawn. So really guys, do it for me.

Werd.

I have things I have to do today, and I'm reading this instead of doing them.

 

[YellowJacket]

Basically, you have to cover all your bases to get what you want before you start mucking with the signal chain by adding pedals. Pedals seem like a bandaid solution to me otherwise.

Using a Tube Screamer has been a tried and true technique for recording high-gain guitars for years, and it's likely almost every modern metal tone had one in the chain. For an example of the awesomeness (but subtlety) of the effect of one used properly...

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/equipment/514040-krank-revolution-without-ts-samples-inside.html

Wait for the low note palm mutes to come in, that's where it's really obvious IMO!

I'm not knocking the benefits of a proper overdrive pedal. I mean some amps simply need it because of limited capabilities. (A 2 channel dual, for instance, where you can't dial in a separate lead channel and rhythm channel, or you don't want to drag two amps to a show so you can play clean) All I am saying is that of all the things I mentioned that should be considered in tweaking ones tone, the pedal should be added last after all the other components are selected and proven to be sure. I think jdurso is saying that there are other ways to create the effect of that tube screamer mid hump in a dual besides adding a pedal but yes, a lot of guitarists can't be trusted to successfully complete this sort of tweaking because they don't know what they are dong!

Well first off, the Maxon OD808 is in fact a Tube Screamer clone, and I'm not certain what your source is for thinking it sounds any different or has any less of a mid-hump than the other varieties - from the Musicians Friend description:

The Maxon OD808 Overdrive is made by the same Japanese company which crafted the original overdrive circuit in a green stompbox that's been obsessed over by guitarists for the past 30 years. It uses the identical circuit found in the original employing the same JRC4558 IC chip for smooth, natural overdrive similar to a cranked-up tube amp.

The 4558 is the op-amp that high-end Tube Screamer hypers always ejaculate over, even though it can be found all the way down in my "lowly" TS7 (PROOF! )

And as for guitarists finding their own tone and such, well, I've always been skeptical about that - l feel that playing a rig live and in the room smears over WAY more details than recording it, because close-mic'ing that sucker in a studio environment puts it under the ultimate microscope, and drags all the worst aspects into the light, where they can't be obscured by such factors as huge volume, low-end thunk (it can be intoxicating, I can't deny), reflections EVERYWHERE, and of course, the thrill of wielding such power. Thus, I feel you can "get away" with a lot more with a room tone, but I also feel that any tonal change made for the benefit of a recording (especially about fitting in the overall mix) will almost always also be the best (or close to it) for live tones. Not to mention the extreme potential for placebo effect (which is present in recording too, of course, but at least one can get many other opinions to confirm/deny it by submitting clips in a blind test and gauging the results).

And that of course assumes that the guitarist has any idea what good tone is in the first place; I doubt I'm alone in having experienced countless shows where the guitarist is running a Metal Zone into the clean channel of his Rectifier (that sounds like balls), cranking up a Sonic Maximizer in the loop (that sounds like balls), or just tweaking the amp to sound more like balls then ever thought possible. And since they barely know anything about concepts of mixing, it's kinda hard to blame them! And the horror stories I have heard from recording engineers who deal with guitarists that come in with "their own tone", and being absolutely dumbfounded by how awful it sounds; as I said, there are plenty of guitarists who do have some idea what they're doing, and then plenty that do not! And to be clear, I still consider myself a guitarist first, recording engineer second, but the latter has definitely had a huge influence (for the better IMO) on my philosophies as the former!

You are right about room tone and all that. The basement we jammed in at my parents place has the worst acoustics ever. (EVER) Basically, everything sounds incredibly bassy down there and to top it all off, there area always these annoying high frequencies that bounce around. It simply sounds like a cauldron or something in there. Recorded tone is something I find extremely frustrating to deal with 1) because mics are so picky 2) because mics also influence tone a lot. Basically, when you go through a PA live you will be miced so that will play into tone. Room affects tone as does ambient acoustics. So many factors.

You know, I also know what you are talking about with the metal zone *******. WHO RUNS A $2,000 AMPLIFIER WITH A STOMP BOX FOR DISTORTION!????? The amp police need to conficate the duals from those idiots and give them to needy guitarists with potential. (A philanthropic organization, after all. The tone police can then downgrade these chumps to a peavey Bandit 112 or something similar. If you use a metalzone stompbox with a dual, you DESERVE a solid state amp. The older (and crappier) the better!!! I heard a guy at one show where I was using my dual as the backline. (I REALLY wanted my v30s broken in) Basically, he ran a strat with single coils and he was pissed off with how the Dual wouldn't do a sound like ozzie. He insisted on running a pedal with it instead of investing in a proper guitar for the style he wanted to play. DEATH! There was another guy with a dual and a PRS Santana who thought it would be cute to run a big effects processor board with his rig. He told me the dual was an "amp more suitable for jazz since it didn't have a lot of gain". I had my amp at that show (blackface) and his was chrome, but also a two channel. I told him, "Let me flip three buttons on your amp and it will change your life." He didn't want me touching it!!!!!! IDIOT! At another show, some kid was running a marshall with a super scooped tone which obviously sounded great by himself but you couldn't even hear it live. The other guy had a dual with a much more mid intensive 'punk rock' crunch tone. Basically, mr Marshall's sound was completely masked and you couldn't hear him at all. Between songs, I told the marshall player to turn his mids way up and lo and behold, he emerged in the mix and sounded great!

Ya, guitar tone is a lot like anything creative. Some people should not be allowed to design anything because they are terrible at it! Studio engineers exist to save these people from winning a guitar darwin award for bad tone. Personally, I want to learn more about amp micing because I suspect this will help me with micing my amp, even in live situations. Just sticking a mic anywhere in front of the amp definitely isn't the best way to transport my tone to the audience and it is a terrible loss to have it show up as a faint shadow of what it sounds like in person out in the audience.

 

[mikey383]

I like beer and mids.

 

[jdurso]

Its amazing how they convert to cork sniffing at such early ages these days.

Godammit, I wish this forum had a multi-quote function - anyway, isn't cork-sniffing being obsessed with nothing but the finest and most expensive gear? That's always how I thought of it, and I never once have mentioned price (hell, I use a $40 TS7), but if by cork-sniffer you mean someone who is very discerning about getting the best recorded tone he can, then guilty as charged. 8) And as to your second statement, I honestly didn't mean to imply that those things were unorthodox, I was more referring to the more extreme interpretations of "finding your own tone" that some people might have.

No cork sniffing refers to people who over analyze even the simplest designs, methods or techniques. Basically people who are so focused on minute details that they fail to see things as a whole.

Its just some fun ribbing... although i do think you fail to see the big picture of a rig and come off like there is one way of doing things because reputable engineers say so. And before you get things twisted I'm not saying thats what you meant because I will give you more credit than that, its just how your posts come off.