Dual Rec Dirty Tone

[ct6mblue]

So I just received my Dual Rec yesterday, and the previous owner put Fender-labeled Groove Tube 6L6s in the power stage. Not sure if they're any good, but they appear to be relabeled Sovtek tubes. Dropped in some Ruby EL34s to see if that changed much. Couldn't tell an immediate difference. Anyway, I wanted to know if this seems to be the case with most people and their rectos. When I plugged 'er in on the Orange channel, the tone I got had a nasty annoying harsh, high-end hiss kind of sound. I didn't even have it on Modern mode (however, modern seems to accentuate this harshness). Turned the treble and presence down, but to no avail. I was initially pretty disappointed. I figured I may have to turn up the channel and master volume to fill it out and tame the harshness, but that wasn't an option at the time. I still had it decently loud, cause obviously it sounds like poop at really low volumes...

HOWEVER... I recorded it with a 57 and it was glorious! It was tight, crisp (not harsh), defined, and articulate. Maybe not as smooth as I would like, and I can't see it doing lead work incredibly well, but it was a heck of a lot better than what I was hearing. Is this the case with anyone else? Also, has anyone been able to get use out of the treble/presence knobs with, say, a preamp retube?

 

[Elpelotero]

It'd be difficult to know if there is a problem with your amp or if you are simply hearing the amp's natural tone without being there in person or hearing the clip you made.

 

[mikey383]

Try swapping out your V1 preamp tube. It sounds like you may have a noisy tube. My DR is dead quiet, even with high gain.

 

[ct6mblue]

It is quite possible that what I'm hearing is the amp's natural voice, but since I can't seem to dial out that high-end harshness, I can't effectively get much of a smooth lead tone out of it. Mind you, for clarification, that the amp has this hiss/harshness while being played, not while sitting still doing nothing. I will have to post clips later.

 

[Metaltastic]

Yeah, the nature of modern mode is that it really opens up the crunch and presence, which is GODLIKE for rhythm definition but can get a bit fatiguing and scratchy for lead playing - try vintage mode for leads! (though you'll definitely wanna up the treble and presence cuz it's a much more muffled sounding mode inherently) As for settings, do you have a 2 or 3 ch. Rectifier? Can't be certain for 3 ch., but I know for modern mode on my 2 ch. the best sounding treble setting IMO is 11:30, and presence 12:00 (after much experimentation)

And I'm glad you're already happy with the recorded tone at least, usually that's the far harder thing to achieve!

 

[mikey383]

Yeah, the nature of modern mode is that it really opens up the crunch and presence, which is GODLIKE for rhythm definition but can get a bit fatiguing and scratchy for lead playing - try vintage mode for leads! (though you'll definitely wanna up the treble and presence cuz it's a much more muffled sounding mode inherently) As for settings, do you have a 2 or 3 ch. Rectifier? Can't be certain for 3 ch., but I know for modern mode on my 2 ch. the best sounding treble setting IMO is 11:30, and presence 12:00 (after much experimentation)

And I'm glad you're already happy with the recorded tone at least, usually that's the far harder thing to achieve!

:shock:

Good grief!!! If I turn my treble and presence down that far and I might as stick cotton balls in my ears! I have no attack at all at anything less than 1 on the treble.

 

[Metaltastic]

I dunno, I think it works ok here And Andy Sneap used similar settings on the tone for Nevermore's "Dead Heart in a Dead World" (though I actually never even really noticed until after I had figured them out myself through a ton of tweaking and posting of comparison clips for feedback, and he was able to do it pretty much right off the bat - godammit :lol: Oh well, at least it provided an excellent learning experience for developing my ears!) Obviously in the room with all the sound bouncing around and chunky volume and what not, you can get away with a lot more, but with a mic up to the cone of course the subtle differences get magnified, and having the treble above 12:00 makes it sound like a beehive IMO! (case in point, the clips I recorded here are with the treble at like 1:00, and presence actually around 10:00)

Here's the exact settings I used for that first clip (which is the tone for my upcoming EP), it also has a ~2 db cut at 6k to get rid of too much fizz (a bit is still there, of course, but it mostly disappears in a mix, and cutting it any more just makes it sound weird and unnatural IMO - a necessary evil of high gain!)

 

[mikey383]

I tried a similar setting a few days ago while I had my amp out (I only get to play it once every couple weeks now...the ol' lady doesn't work anymore...lol). I didn't like it at all. Too muddy and not crisp enough. I guess everything in the signal path contributes though.

Here is a clip of mine. PRS Cu22 into DR with a Recto cab. Presence at 1, Treble at 1:30, Mids at noon, Bass at 2, Gain at 1:30.

 

[Metaltastic]

Cool dude, though a bit too thin/brittle/undergained for my tastes, though I suppose it fits the song - I'm much more fond of modern metal tones like the one I posted above though, so I guess it's a taste thing as well!

 

[mikey383]

I mic'd that clip up with a LDC about a foot away from the cab also, which could account for the thinness. It's not so thin and more mid heavy live.

You get a great tone nonetheless. I don't play metal (more like heavy alternative), so I don't really go for the metal tone. I will try your settings out the next time I pull my amp out.

 

[jdurso]

Try a Mullard 12ax7a/7025a in your phase inverter slot (V5 if you're dual does NOT have reverb, V6 if it does... basically the last slot). The Mullard 7025 is very clear and very smooth and has some killer mids. Put that in your phase inverter and the whole amp's presence will become smoother and in my experience it tames a Recto's buzzy characteristic since its not very rich in bass or highs.

Also some may differ but if you bump up your treble slightly and keep your presence below 9 oclock you should get a more desirable lead tone. Also make sure you're not scooping the mids... the recto is already inherently scooped and by further scooping out the mids your suppressing the frequencies which can make your sing.

If you're willing to use pedals to help get you a more desirable lead tone i'd suggest an OD setup as a clean boost or some type of tube screamer. The additional tube compression will add a harmonic rich smoothness to your tone and in the case of a tubesceamer type drive additional upper mids which the rectos are severely lacking. I've even used a treble booster into a od setup as a clean boost into a high gain channel with the gain down around 9:30 with terrific results.

 

[mikey383]

Try a Mullard 12ax7a/7025a in your phase inverter slot (V5 if you're dual does NOT have reverb, V6 if it does... basically the last slot). The Mullard 7025 is very clear and very smooth and has some killer mids. Put that in your phase inverter and the whole amp's presence will become smoother and in my experience it tames a Recto's buzzy characteristic since its not very rich in bass or highs.

Hmmm. I have a Mullard 7025 in my V1 spot and a Shuguang in my phase inverter. I tried a Sovtek 12AX7LPS in V1 tonight and I think I like it better, so I'll try the Mullard in the PI the next time I play the amp.

 

[jdurso]

Try a Mullard 12ax7a/7025a in your phase inverter slot (V5 if you're dual does NOT have reverb, V6 if it does... basically the last slot). The Mullard 7025 is very clear and very smooth and has some killer mids. Put that in your phase inverter and the whole amp's presence will become smoother and in my experience it tames a Recto's buzzy characteristic since its not very rich in bass or highs.

Hmmm. I have a Mullard 7025 in my V1 spot and a Shuguang in my phase inverter. I tried a Sovtek 12AX7LPS in V1 tonight and I think I like it better, so I'll try the Mullard in the PI the next time I play the amp.

If you really want to get some great lead tones going, try a Siemens Longplate in V1 and/or V2. Those tubes have some incredible presence to them and really sing when they get to their sweet spot. They're sort of hard to find but they popup every now and again on ebay between $15-30 if you're patient. Also a Sylvania short plate in V1 is great if you desire a little more headroom and some glassy highs.

But back to the PI... the Mullard i find a little too smooth for my roadster, but then again the Roadster is smoother and darker than a regular DR. I would imagine in a regular DR it might be the perfect ballance of cut and smooth.

 

[Metaltastic]

My experience has been that different varieties of high-quality preamp tubes have only slight effects on the flavor of the tone, but a Dual Rec will always sound like a Dual Rec, and the same for any other amp. I'll change my mind when I hear clips demonstrating otherwise.

 

[jdurso]

My experience has been that different varieties of high-quality preamp tubes have only slight effects on the flavor of the tone, but a Dual Rec will always sound like a Dual Rec, and the same for any other amp. I'll change my mind when I hear clips demonstrating otherwise.

What "high-quality preamp tubes" have you tried and in what capacity? Unless your expectation is its going to make a Recto sound like a Plexi (which would be unrealistic), changing out certain preamp slot with tubes that generate a particular characteristic will absolutely change your tone.

Since I dont have any way to record clips you are more than welcome to come test it out in person. Also there is a wealth of knowledge and information in the Tubes portion of this site. there are a lot of great folks there willing to share their knowledge and experience for those who are open to learning new things :wink:

 

[Metaltastic]

I've tried Tung Sol, Shuguang 9th Gen, and JJ, and found the differences to be subtle enough to not want to bother investing in NOS or other vintage tubes. Ditto from all the comparison clips I've heard previously; I'm plenty open to new things and having my mind changed, but when one's only experience in recognizing changes is playing an amp in the room, turning it off, swapping the tubes, turning it back on, and trying to accurately compare, well, I have my doubts, cuz that screams placebo to me, and IMO the only way to really be sure about these things is to a) have two identical amps next to each other, each with different tubes, that you can directly A/B between (not so convenient) or b) record comparison clips that you can directly A/B (more convenient)

 

[Metaltastic]

And my experimentation was with A/B/C'ing recorded clips, btw, though I lost the session file in a HDD crash some time ago. Furthermore, I had a dude on the Sneap forum re-amp me some clips through his Rev F 2 ch. Dual/Recto cab/57, and despite (obviously) having different tubes than mine, the differences were very subtle, and I assert due far more to different preamps, speaker sound, room, etc.

But all this debating is pointless - anyone can assert anything on a forum, but without clips everyone just has to take their word for it!

 

[mikey383]

I've tried Tung Sol, Shuguang 9th Gen, and JJ, and found the differences to be subtle enough to not want to bother investing in NOS or other vintage tubes. Ditto from all the comparison clips I've heard previously; I'm plenty open to new things and having my mind changed, but when one's only experience in recognizing changes is playing an amp in the room, turning it off, swapping the tubes, turning it back on, and trying to accurately compare, well, I have my doubts, cuz that screams placebo to me, and IMO the only way to really be sure about these things is to a) have two identical amps next to each other, each with different tubes, that you can directly A/B between (not so convenient) or b) record comparison clips that you can directly A/B (more convenient)

Some of the changes are very well pronounced, so much that you would have to be deaf in order to not hear it. Going from say, a JJ in V1 to a Shuguang is a night and day difference.

 

[Metaltastic]

Eh, in my tests I found it to be extremely subtle, the JJ being *slightly* darker

 

[jdurso]

And my experimentation was with A/B/C'ing recorded clips, btw, though I lost the session file in a HDD crash some time ago. Furthermore, I had a dude on the Sneap forum re-amp me some clips through his Rev F 2 ch. Dual/Recto cab/57, and despite (obviously) having different tubes than mine, the differences were very subtle, and I assert due far more to different preamps, speaker sound, room, etc.

But all this debating is pointless - anyone can assert anything on a forum, but without clips everyone just has to take their word for it!

Yet clips don't necassarily always reproduce the sound you hear in the room with the amp, so thats not even a sure fire method. At the end of the day though to say there are little to no differences would be inaccurate, especially when there are a lot of folks out there that have heard and can identify the differences.

And i agree the problem with forums is you have to take everything with a grain of salt.... even with clips you don't know what you're listening to is actually what the person is trying to pass it off as. The only true way to figure things out is do your research and experiement on your own.