Boogie MKIIB Rev Eq 60/100W head

[mark2boogie]

The problem is always with the lead sound: the signal is taken before the lead circuit, so the reverb mirrors the clean sound and not the lead sound, which sounds not naturally at all. you get a distorted sound mixed with the reverb of a clean sound...and the balance changes, in lead mode there is less reverb. mark2boogie had a cure for that, but I didnt try it yet.

Yes, TiPiMods. My cure is for the IIA, but nonetheless, the same principle can be applied to the IIB, since their reverb circuit are similar.

There is reason for the reverb to be attenuated in lead mode on the IIA/B : if you play at full gain setting, with the booster on, with the bridge PU, your sound will be flooded by an ocean of reverb, so a compromise needed to be taken, and at MESA they found that lowering the level on lead was a better choice that I undertand easily. The FX Loop Mod tended to correct more or less that problem in the meantime.

the reverb mirrors the clean sound and not the lead sound, which sounds not naturally at all

Well, if you play with a pushed Princeton-Reverb or a Deluxe-Reverb, it's nontheless what you naturally have : a crunchy/bluesy, even compressed/sustained tone, backed by a clean/deep reverb. It's exactly that feature which amazed me on the IIA : I can retrieve the ambience or my pushed PR and DR. The MKI and IIB have also the same possibility. Most of the amps I had in hands can't do that, or do it as best at least.

A+!

 

[TiPiMods]

With"natural" reverb I meant the kind of (acoustic) reverb a room or a hall produces, which always reflects the signal you put in. Any kind of "artificial" reverb tries to emulate this more or less. So for my ears it sounds quite unnatural if the reverb signal differs a lot from the original.

If I crank a Black-or Silverface amp to about 6-7 on the volume, I get some wealthy amount of preamp distortion, which I can hear reflected in the reverb signal too. You are right, its not the whole picture because of additional PI and poweramp distortion, but its close and at least not too clean.
It wouldnt work probably with a fully cranked Fender, but I personally dont like the sound of my 63' Deluxe on 10, its to flabby, unstable and too much speaker distortion. I wouldn't do it anyway for a longer time because of the valuable transformer and speaker. Thats what I like with the Boogie or a Marshall: with good speakers they stay kind of tight, even with a lot of gain. The Deluxe sounds really sweet with a bluesy kind of overdrive and the reverb on 2 or 3 maximum.

Some day I have to try some resistor changes on my MkII to get it more balanced. Ever with full gain there is less reverb on the overdrive channel ( I never use the boost function live, it gets too bassy and I would need another EQ setting)

Are you still waiting for your TAD transformer?

 

[mark2boogie]

Are you still waiting for your TAD transformer?

Well - I am late on that : I still have to remove it and return it to TAD - they are waiting for it... I think I'll be able to do that next week...

**************************

In the meantime, I could make some side-to-side comparison with pics and sound samples between my MKIIA, MKIIB and the MKIIC that I had for restoration.

From left to right on the pictures : MKIIA Rev Eq 60/100 EVM12L Black Shadow, MKIIB Rev Eq 60/100 + Thiele cab EVM12L, MKIIC Rev Eq 60W MESA MS-12.

Samples are made through a Roland R-05 portable digital recorder put on a stand :

Guitars used for the samples : 1980 GIBSON ES-335 , FENDER BlueOut Deluxe Telecaster.

Here is the set list of the samples :

http://soundcloud.com/tubelectron/sets/boogie-mk2abc-samples/s-IGDVA

As far as possible, I used the same settings on the three amps, or otherwise I made some adjutments to make a comparison possible, showing the differences while staying in the same "style" or "range" of sound...

Some samples are made with amps with their proper cabs, others are made with the amp driving the Thiele cab, in order to see only the difference of the amp model itself, while using the same settings.

A very instructive job for me... Demonstrating that probably the MKIIC amps are not really my taste... But may be yours !

Enjoy !

A+!

 

[gitapik]

Nice amps and guitars, there. Very good of you to set up comparisons for us to check out. Thanks! There's a bit of a glitch on one of the lead tracks and the labeling's a bit off, but that's small stuff. I really enjoyed that.

For my personal tastes, I'm more into the IIA and B on these clips. Warmer tone. The IIC has more treble and a tighter sound. I wonder if it's possible to change that through the tone, presence, and EQ controls?

Thanks, again.

 

[mark2boogie]

There's a bit of a glitch on one of the lead tracks and the labeling's a bit off, but that's small stuff.

I corrected it, gitapik - So everything should be OK now (5mm17sec)...
1 - fonkybusiness = Tele in strat (B+M) position, each amp with its own cab
2 - thiele funk = same as above, each amp on thiele cab
3 - cropper = Tele in neck position, each amp with its own cab
4 - lead = 335 in bridge position, each amp with its own cab
5 - blues = same as above, but 335 in neck position
6 - thiele blues = 335 in neck position, each amp on thiele cab
7 - MKIIA vintage blues = 335 in neck position + MKIIA with its own cab

For my personal tastes, I'm more into the IIA and B on these clips. Warmer tone.

I am not surprised, you guess it ! Quite instructive/surprising comparison, don't you think ?

The IIC has more treble and a tighter sound. I wonder if it's possible to change that through the tone, presence, and EQ controls?

Not really, not so much... the bass shift is already pulled on all the samples (to restore "normal" bass setting), and maxing the 80Hz EQ control would give a bass level which approaches the MKIIA or IIB EQ off and bass control at 5. I am definetly akeen to think that there's the MKI, MKIIA, MKIIB on one side, and the later ones with a different voicing.

A+!

 

[gitapik]

Yep...that's better. Nice comparison.

8)

I'm still considering converting my combo to a head. Everyone says it's got drawbacks on stage in terms of directionality, though, so I haven't moved on it, yet. But I do like the way the bass tightens up with the closed back.

 

[mark2boogie]

I'm still considering converting my combo to a head. Everyone says it's got drawbacks on stage in terms of directionality, though, so I haven't moved on it, yet. But I do like the way the bass tightens up with the closed back.

Directionality is only a problem in the treble range, not so much on mids and not at all on basses, which are omni-directional...

With the same speaker, the same placement, the same position for the listener, there is no significant difference in directionality between the combo and the Thiele cab : they have the same amount of treble. So you, as a player, will be able to hear the same treble range to control your playing.

Nonetheless, hearing my EVM12L Thiele cab and my EVM12L combo, it is true to say that :
- the combo is more mid-rangey, and has a broader dispersion of the mid range, because of its open back, but has less bass.
- the Thiele cab is more tight (Bass-Reflex speaker damping) and has an much more extended bass range and bass volume (Bass-Reflex enhancement), but has less dispersion due to the closed back.

So it is more a matter of tone choice than a real directionality problem.

A+!

 

[TiPiMods]

great comparison, very interesting. The IIA and IIB sound quite similar, especially the clean sound. The IIC has a totally different color, very good to hear when every amp uses the Thiele cab.
I suppose (but I could be wrong) you didn't pull the "pull shift"? ( dont even know if all the amps got that feature...) I find that very important to get a nice saturated lead sound on my IIB. It shifts the treble range somewhere deeper to get a lead sound different from the "pushed Fender" kind of sound. Less high treble and more upper mids
What's also astounding for me: I always thought the IIC was built to get even more gain.. on these audio files the IIC has less gain than the IIA or the IIB. How did you set volume and lead drive, can you remember?

hopefully someday you get hold on a IIC+ to make this comparison complete.

@gitapik: for my ear I always liked open back combos or cabs a lot better in small and medium clubs. The sound fills the whole room a lot better because of what comes out on the back and gets reflected from the walls. I like the sound on stage also better, feels better for me.
When playin' on big stages (like an open air stage) with open back combos I think more of the sound ( and the bass) gets lost in the back somewhere. Depending on what music I play, I would prefer a 2x12 or a 4x12.

Btw: I ordered a padded cover for the MkII and the Thiele also from Susan at Studioslips. (The original cover from the MkII is worn out and in a very bad shape) So I'm waiting now for all the 3 items. Thanks again for the link, Susan is really very nice and the covers definetly were the best I could find on my research. I didn't find anything near the quality in Europe.

 

[gitapik]

So this is a little off, but on topic, as we were discussing the Blues Jr, earlier:

I've been really enjoying this amp. It's got a nice, big tone for such a small amp. But yesterday I was playing my Tele (G&L ASAT Classic) through it. I had it loud (3/4 on each of the volume controls). All was well until I hit the Ab on the 11th fret of the A string. There was a strong crackle that came out of the top portion of the amp after the note, when I hit it hard. Very noticeable. I tried the same note on the 16th fret of the E string and it was even more pronounced, extending to the 17th fret, too. No problem with the Ab on the D, G, B, or E strings. Just those two bass strings.

I tried it with my Strat (DiMarzio noiseless pups): same sound. Les Paul (with a preamp and coil splitters, both on and off) and the same sound was there, but not nearly as pronounced...I think because the tone is meatier and the note sustains longer (?).

When I turn both volume controls a little above half way or lower, the sound vanishes.

My logic tells me this means that the vibrations of that particular note on the bass strings at high volume creates this, but I'm wondering:

why Ab, exclusively?

Can I get rid of this? I tried holding the tubes while hitting the note and it didn't help.

One freakin' note that I can't hit hard at high volumes...:?:

 

[TiPiMods]

ask Billm, he probably knows most about BJs.
you can post on his site too, he answers within a few days.

 

[mark2boogie]

I suppose (but I could be wrong) you didn't pull the "pull shift"? ( dont even know if all the amps got that feature...)

On the MKIIC, the (Bass) pull shift was pulled, in order to have... Some bass !
On the IIA and IIB, the boost function was activated in lead mode (when not play'in Blues).
But we may not speak about the same control :?:

On my IIA, from left to right, the "code" is 7 7 5 5. the M1 was around 5-6, the LD was 8, the LM was 2.5-3. Remember that my M1 is rewired in classic pot, not variable resistor (as you have done it too on your IIB AFAIR).

On my IIB, 7 7 5 5 also, and the rest was the same or nearly. There should be a difference in the reverb and presence setting between the IIA and IIB, to make a suitable balance in tone.

I always thought the IIC was built to get even more gain.. on these audio files the IIC has less gain than the IIA or the IIB.

Yes. I was akeen to think so. but remember that my IIA (and at a lesser extent my IIB) are gain-modified in the lead section. I would say that these 3 amps are more or less similar in gain, but not in tone behavior :

Increasing the lead drive :
- gives more agressivity and treble on the IIC
- gives more sustain on the IIA
As I do not like agressivity, I think that I tamed down a bit the gain of the IIC...

hopefully someday you get hold on a IIC+ to make this comparison complete.

I hope too... Nonetheless, I think that the IIC+ is not very able to cover the tonal possibilities of a IIA, simply by its different reverb and lead circuit architecture. I would like to check it by myself, of course... I also think that the IIC+ has more gain than my IIA, IIB and that IIC I restored and tested here, again, due to its circuit design, but it can't duplicate the peculiar reverb sound of the IIA (that I love, you guessed it)

A+!

 

[TiPiMods]

sorry not beeing precise enough: I meant the treble pull shift. I always pull that on my IIB to get a thicker lead sound.
What speakers did the different amps have?

 

[mark2boogie]

sorry not beeing precise enough: I meant the treble pull shift. I always pull that on my IIB to get a thicker lead sound. What speakers did the different amps have?

Ah, OK - no, the TREBLE SHIFT control was not pulled on any of the amps or samples.

MKIIA = EVM12L Black Shadow
MKIIB = EVM12L vintage original (thiele cab)
MKIIC = MESA MS-12 original

I have another combo "Tolex" cab for the IIA with an ALTEC 417-8H, but it was not used on the samples.

A+!

 

[mark2boogie]

Are you still waiting for your TAD transformer?


Well - I am late on that : I still have to remove it and return it to TAD - they are waiting for it... I think I'll be able to do that next week...

I have sent the faulty transformer to TAD (Tube Amp Doctor) and they considered it as "fully functional", nothing less...

I already sent to them all informations about the problem (pictures, schematics with measurements) and remembered them the mods that I was forced to do on that transformer to make it work - mods that I presented here some post before - but they dont care and only see what they want to see. They will return me the transformer as is...

I have lost my time, my money by their fault, and I have been taken for a fool. That's ugly and dishonest. It was my first purchase at TAD and obviously it is also the last one. Needless to say that I WON'T RECOMMEND TAD as a part supplier for your amp maintenance or restoration, you guess it... So BEWARE !

A+!

 

[TiPiMods]

oh, thats bad news. I personally never had bad experience with TAD, but I didn't buy a lot over the years. My main supplier for amp parts and tubes is Tube Town (http://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/) Dirk is a really nice and supportive guy.

So, you will buy another transformer or leave it like it is?

BTW: found it on another thread here on the board: there is a web archive where you can find Ian Dickeys site: http://web.archive.org/web/20090413130202/http://homepage.mac.com/mesaboogie/welcome.html
only some pictures are missing.

 

[bgh]

mark2boogie,

Nice ES-335. As a fellow lefty, I am somewhat envious!

 

[mark2boogie]

oh, thats bad news. I personally never had bad experience with TAD, but I didn't buy a lot over the years. My main supplier for amp parts and tubes is Tube Town (http://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/) Dirk is a really nice and supportive guy.

Yes, TT is more than excellent, neatly cheaper prices than TAD. But TAD has some more hard-to-find parts than TT that they sell the price of gold : it was the case for that transformer, that I have paid the price of gold (224 Euros + shipping) for a shitty product.

So, you will buy another transformer or leave it like it is?

First, I have to wait the return of my transformer. I don't know when they will return it to me but I think they won't be in a hurry, seeing the care they have about their customers...

After that, I will see... I have contacted the german Xfo suppliers that you told me, but no answer for the moment. I think that I will manage with a Xfo builder locally to have a unit built to my specs, based on the TAD (italian-made) transformer specs, but with the quality you would expect from a well-built transformer. I have done that in the past (when the web did not existed...) and I have never been disappointed.

Again, unless you really can't do otherwise, avoid and forget TAD :evil: (Tube Amp Doctor) as a part supplier, and go for (or stay with) a serious one...

BTW: found it on another thread here on the board: there is a web archive where you can find Ian Dickeys site: http://web.archive.org/web/200904131302 ... lcome.html
only some pictures are missing.

Yes, this was Ian's website on Boogie amps, full of useful informations. Unfortunately, it is no more available. But I could record the pages before it closed. Ian is kind man, but I don't know if he has the project of reinstalling his cool website :?: .

mark2boogie,

Nice ES-335. As a fellow lefty, I am somewhat envious!

Thanks ! I bought it in Dec. 1982, sold as a 2nd Hand model. It's a Kalamazoo-made 1980 model, on which I installed the Bigsby B-7. But there's numerous quality semi-solid guitars today that you can find in LH for way less than an ES-335TD, like the very nice 335-mate Hagstrom Viking that I have too :

A+!

 

[TiPiMods]

What's with American Transformers like Heyboer, Schumacher or Mercury Magnetics?
Heyboer is said to be excellent at reasonable prices.
you could sell the TAD Xfo on ebay.

 

[gitapik]

Thanks ! I bought it in Dec. 1982, sold as a 2nd Hand model. It's a Kalamazoo-made 1980 model, on which I installed the Bigsby B-7. But there's numerous quality semi-solid guitars today that you can find in LH for way less than an ES-335TD, like the very nice 335-mate Hagstrom Viking that I have too :

A+!

Sorry to hear about the transformer. It's always a slap in the face when you take the time to explain a problem and are told to buzz off (that's a nice way of saying it). I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for, though.

So you like that Hagstrom? I've been considering a 335 for a while.

 

[Triaxstasy]

Sorry to hear about that TAD experience...
I guess I mentioned it before...when it come to transformers, I can highly recommend JRE/Ritter Electronics. I had them build a 230V tranny for my originally-110V-US-Fifty/Fifty....not only was it a bargain when compared to TAD or others but it was also an awesome piece of craftsmanship and quality.
Mr Ritter is an awesome guy to deal with and they are absolutely able to build any amp related power and output tranny to any specifications....