Best Delay for Mv in Fx Loop?

[Bankim]

For those who own a DD3, does anyone notice a slight muddiness of the output when the DD3 is used in the fx loop ?

 

[bandit2013]

I have tried lowering the Send level. I could not eliminate the clipping on the rack mount delay that I had for many years. I had other rack mount systems that I could not use with the Mark V. All of my effects that I used to own prior to the Mark V were ideal with the Mark IV and I did not have any issues with that amp regarding FX loop. Most of the effects I did have were given away or thrown out since that gear was from 2000 or earlier. Bought a few pedals starting with the Line6 DL4 sounded okay even with the compression but was not really suitable for the Mark V. Tried the TC Flashback X3 and that one was about the same, compressed delay tone. Both work well with the other amps. Then came along a Strymon DIG, no issue there using it in the Mark V loop and also the other amps as well as the mixer board which has two FX loops. I believe that one does some sort of auto shifting on the input buffer or on the output as it can take up to +8dBu signal. Works just as good with the instrument level loops of the JP or TC-50, Roadster and RA100, including on the front end of the amp. So Strymon got me interested and now I have a few more of their products. Ola, Big Sky, Brigadier, OB.1. What also works in the Mark V loop is the Boss Terra Echo. Also have a Boss PH-3 phase shifter but have not tried that in the loop. I no longer use the line6 or TC product that I have at the moment. However I still need the Ebtech LLS so I can slave out to another amp that does not use line level loop (roadster). I think the LLS would improve the slave out function better using the FX loop with an isolated signal splitter (allows you to keep the power section of the Mark V and to send FX signal to another amp but if the signal level is too strong it will not sound ideal). I have a Lehle P-Split II that is awesome for bi-amping or slaving out to another amp as the isolated output can be set for different phase relationship, ground lift and cuts out the ground loop noise by isolation transformer. Works great on the front end of an amp to run two amps in parallel (no noise especially when one amp is in standby when you are turning on the amps). I tried using the Line6 DL4 to run two amps and that was noisy at best. I burned some circuits in it when I tried a solid state amp and tube amp together ( I was able to repair it after the damage though with a jumper wire to replace the vaporized copper traces). Never mix a tube amp and solid state amp by plugging in a parallel output into the input of each amp since the ground loop and associated voltage levels may not be compatible with each other. Something may go on you, also you may possibly have a more serious issue if you or your guitar become the short circuit to earth ground. Best to use a splitter that has an isolation transformer with a ground disconnect. I doubt there would be issue of concern for electric shock but there is that potential. Also it is noisy unless you can isolate one amp from the other. I am only providing reference to some product but I am not endorsing them. Just trying to be helpful and what worked for me.

 

[kreatorkills]

So i tried several ways of hooking up the Ebtech line level shifter and all it did to my ears was raise or lower the output. I tried adjusting the fx send level on the amp and no difference in the delay sound. I have the Timefactor coming Friday so I'll see if it sounds different then my DMM. The DMM does sound good on the clean channel, and it also sounds good set as a slapback or reverb type for more gain, but once the time is increased with gain it sounds like it's clipping.

 

[bandit2013]

interesting..... I will have to see for myself what is up with that. I want the LLS and believed that device would cure the clip or overdriven issue with the Mark V due to higher signal output on the loop. Have one on order so when I get it I will chime in on what is up.

I also ordered two XLR to TRS cables and two of the IMP XLR to TS transformers so I can make use of the balanced cables to reduce noise levels. I want to see if the TRS will work in the Ebtech as it uses TRS jacks. With some of my gear for recording, the TRS jacks when used with TS plugs you generally get a reduced output due to the impedance difference. Perhaps that is the trick for the Ebtech LLS. At least the balanced cable would be better for noise immunity. Also I can use the cables with other stuff so no big deal or loss to me as I can use them for recording purposes.

Now if there is a signal level issue on the return, a booster may be needed at the end of the effects chain..... Not so simple anymore but have to try this as I would like to slave out though the FX loop on the Mark V to other amps. Bummer... thought this would be an inexpensive fix compared to dropping all your gear for more expensive pedals. Strymon is not low cost by any means. I do have a few of them and I feel they are worth the extra coin but that in mind, the Line6 DL4 was not inexpensive either. Same price for the TC flashback. Still both cost less than the Strymon stuff but not much less.

I believe that was one of the biggest disappointments I had with the Mark V, hard to find product to use in the FX loop that work. I will chime in when my order arrives and will detail what works and what does not. Sorry for my suggestion as I thought that was a fix, on paper it may be but in reality it may not.

 

[bandit2013]

The rundown on the Ebtech LLS2.
It does work but at a cost of signal level on the loop. I tried combinations of TRS and TS cables, XLR with the IMP transformer and TRS. Seems the best results using the Ebtech LLS2 was with standard TS guitar cables. The Line6 DL4 has surely seen better days and I believe the input buffer on the left or mono side is either degraded or damaged from improper signal levels when used with the Mark V. It has been a while since I tried to use it after it was repaired (circuit board burned out on the mono input side and I installed a bridge wire to replace the vaporized trace). I even tried the right side with the left input with a dummy plug. Perhaps there is a reason I have not used it for some time. I will have to try it with the TC-Flashback X3 to see if I get better results. With the pedal in bypass mode and turning on and off the FX loop there is a slight signal level change but it is enough to be noticed. The only benefit was I could use the Line6 DL4 without the muddy overdriven and compressed tone when plugging it in direct on the FX loop send/receive. The odd thing, I tried the Mesa 5BEQ pedal in the loop in hoped to use it as a signal booster as it has a input and output gain adjustment. In front of the delay and when both pedals were active, with a higher output signal level on the EQ raised the delay basically turned off and sounded like it was hard bypassed. The Line6 DL4 also had a signal loss when turned. Not sure what to think at the moment. Time to hook up a scope and see what is going on with signal levels. Hopefully the signal generator I borrowed will suffice. Will have to look at the signal level on the speaker as well as I am curious to see what the current waveform looks like as well as the voltage waveform with the 12AT7 in V4 compared to the 12AX7 in V4. I believe the send/return on the Mark V is unbalanced.

 

[bandit2013]

Here is an interesting find.... I tried the exact same set up using the Ebtech LLS-2 with the TC-50 and did not notice any change in volume or effect, actually the Line6 DL4 sounded better with the TC-50 even when connected left side: send +4db to input -10dbu, right side output -10dbu to +4dbu to return. I expected some signal level loss and effect presence to be different but it sounded no different with or without the Ebtech LLS-2 in the circuit.

I have looked at the G-System instructions and information regarding the Mark V and the impedance miss-match may be the key ingredient with the Mark V loop (reference to the send output impedance and the return input impedance). With the same gear hooked up to the Mark V, the extreme compression may have been eliminated but the overall effect was limited or lacking content.

the Strymon delays I have as well as their reverb pedal work well without any noticeable tone loss. Those would include the DIG, Brigadier, Big Sky. The other pedal I do have that works well is the Boss Terra Echo. I am not sure on the flashback X4 but the X3 does have some tone loss when used with the Mark V. Actually I tried it with the other amps too and not really fond with it. Maybe I messed it up with the Tone print thing, I should probably figure out how to resort factory settings and try again. For what I really wanted, the L6 DL4 and the TC Flaskback X3 just to not fit my needs but they work OK with the Bass.

 

[bandit2013]

You can use any device that has a +8dBu input rating. Check the specs for the device in question, if nothing is in print about input signal level stated as +8dBu, or + 5.78dBv or higher, it will not work with the Mark V FX loop. I did a simple test to determine the signal strength of the FX send at noon. Note that a +4dBu input level may not be high enough as the Mark V can supply a bit higher than that signal strength (depending on how you are running the amp). All is dependent on tone controls, gain setting and channel master volume. The global master has no effect on the loop signal. The Send level will also have a huge impact on the signal strength. If you notice tone loss, excess compression, or reduction in effect level, back off the send signal control as this may indicate the input buffer is being overloaded in the first effect in the loop. Here is a link to my testing of the Mark V (90W model).

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=74195

 

[kreatorkills]

So i got the Eventide Timefactor and I've had it for about a week, and it is what I've been missing and is a game changer for me. I wish i would have had it all along as i have definitely been missing out.
Thanks to everyone who recommend it as it gets along very well with the Mark V.

 

[bandit2013]

So i got the Eventide Timefactor and I've had it for about a week, and it is what I've been missing and is a game changer for me. I wish i would have had it all along as i have definitely been missing out.
Thanks to everyone who recommend it as it gets along very well with the Mark V.

Good to know, I looked at the manual, did not specify the line level specifications but at least it has an input switch for instrument or guitar to line level. I would be assuming you have the input switched to line level on the rear panel.

Note that Mesa is not the only amp manufacturer using line level FX loop signals. It is more common than now than it was in the past (actually not many amps had FX loops 20+ years ago).

 

[oly]

TC Flashback 2 here - had it a few months and rarely turn it off now, just makes everything sound better.

 

[abudoggie]

TC Flashback 2 here - had it a few months and rarely turn it off now, just makes everything sound better.

But are you running it in the loop of a Mark V? I just got both a Mark V and a Flashback 2 and while the Flashback works fine in the loop of a couple of my other amps, I am having clipping problems with the Mark V.

After reading the threads here...I've tried turning down the send knob level on back of amp. I've tried making sure the channel masters are lower than the main output level. Really frustrated as sometimes I can tweak it to work on Channel one with really low gain and low volumes on 90W but can't get it to work across the board on all channels with my typical settings.

I know some are using a 12AT7 in V4 (and/or V6). Would that help this particular issue? If so, let me know which V4, V6 or both.

Hoping to get this to work more flexibly without having to get some line level adjust device.

 

[mace]

Hi,

I think some here have said the Flashback is not “compatible” with the Mark V LOOP. I use the Flashback X4 in the LOOP and it does not clip. However, the “wet” volume is limited by the line level signal somehow (I think the Flashback X4 wet signal is saturated because as I turn up the SEND level, the “dry” volume increases but the “wet” does not increase with it). Anyhoo, I have the SEND level at about 10:30 or 11:00 and the “wet” signal seems about as balanced (similar to the Flashback X4 out in front of the amp).

Not sure what to conclude based on what you’ve said. Maybe more tweaking with the SEND level or maybe try a different Flashback model or different delay brand altogether.

I’m sure Mesa had a reason for making the LOOP level in the Mark V different than all their other amps, and it would be interesting to know that reason.

 

[Wayno]

Hi,

I believe the mark V loop is Line Level not instrument level and was designed to work with studio grade line level effects. Many stomp boxes are instrument level which is why they dont play too well with the Mark V. Some can handle the higher level signal though. The best bet is to try to keep the channel masters and the amps send level as low as you can. Not ideal though. Otherwise those effects just aint gonna jive with the five without some form of line to instrument level shifter, and back up again post effect / before return of the amp.

 

[abudoggie]

Thaks for the replies guys...

I wish I would have found this site before I bought the Flashback. I'll keep tweaking or just replace it with a line level delay.

I did check out the TC Electronic site before purchase wondering how it would perform in an FX loop. According to TCE "Knowledge Base":

Question
Is it possible to run the TonePrint pedals in an Line Level Effects Loops (Send/Return) of an Tube Amp ? 0 - +6 dB?

Answer
Yes. The entire line of TonePrint pedals have a very wide gain range and are designed to run at both instrument and line level.

There are few amps such as the CAE OD100, which is capable of running a much hotter than regular +4dBu line level signals because of the way their effect loops are designed - with these amps you can basically use the amp send level as a type of master volume. For those models it might be possible to get the input to clip, but for 99% of all amps, the TonePrint pedals will work just fine.

Guess I never saw myself as being in the 1% :lol: :roll:

 

[Wayno]

If the pedal can handle line level ( +4 Db ) then it should handle the Mark V loop. The Mark V's loop is very hot though, i wouldn't be surprised if it creeps up a fair way past +4 Db. Gotta keep those levels low, FX send and channel masters i guess.

 

[APEMAN]

-

 

[mace]

Hmmm.. I have not paid any attention at all to what the MASTERs are set at. Usually between 10 and 12 o’clock on all channels. I’ll have to maybe play around a bit with those to see if the Flashback X4 is a bit more forgiving in the LOOP. But, my issue was never distortion, it was just that the “wet” signal was was less than with other amps. Which resulted in me making X4 presets on the Rectoverb LOOP (where the computer is) and then going to practice with the Mark V and wondering why the X4 “wet” sounds were barely audible.

 

[abudoggie]

...it was just that the “wet” signal was was less than with other amps. Which resulted in me making X4 presets on the Rectoverb LOOP (where the computer is) and then going to practice with the Mark V and wondering why the X4 “wet” sounds were barely audible.

Mace...that is an interesting thought. Maybe that is what is happening for me. I will recheck with a new listen for that distinction. Indeed the distortion I mention could simply be lack of wet signal? Dunno. But I will tweak away. I was hand wringing over a new Mark V vs. JP2c and the versatility of the Mark V won me over. What sealed it was the store got a mint used Mark V so it seemed destined. Been happy with the amp overall just frustrated with getting the delays setup in the loop.

 

[CATSCANMAN]

Have a new Mark V coming in and need some advice on what delay pedals are being used in the effects loop. Was also thinking of a Line 6 HX FX or a Line 6 HX Stomp for multiple effects or 4 cm. Thanks for the help.

 

[Eevil]

Boss DD-500 works flawlessly.. and sounds gorgeous