Any GT8 users?

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Laskyman

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Greetings- I am new to the Boogie Board, and recently purchased a Mesa Roadster that has been "calling to me" for about a year. Prior to this, I had been running a Boss GT 6/8 into a 20/20 pushing a stereo 212. So, as I "re-learn" operating a big-boy head, I was wondering if any of you have enjoyed success retaining your GT8 via 4CM? Can you share your Mesa/GT experiences ?
I am really trying to decide whether or not I keep the 8 (because of its insane flexibility), or move into seperate delay, compressor, tuner, and OD. So far, I have had absolutely NO LUCK trying to front end a dirty channel with a COSM OD for that searing Lead tone (they are too fizzy).
If you use a similar set-up, can you share a sysx? I know there are some GTCentral folks around here.....I do not want to compromise tone, and I also do not want to add a bunch of noise. Suggestions? If I throw down on individual stomps, I am thinking of:
Boss DD20 (I need multiple delay settings)
Keeley Compressor
Planet Waves tuner
Some Front-End OD (suggestions?)
Thanks in advance-
 
The BB Preamp is an excellent OD if you want an alternative to the Tubescreamer and clone family with their infamous mid hump.

Seriously, try it out.

For delay, I'd recommend a multi-fx rack unit like the G Force or G Major. Their delay is great, and other effects are really transparent too.
 
Apologies, I have not found the sysx file yet. I'm in the process of setting up a RAID1 array on my PC and I've swapped my archive disk out for now.

Apology number 2...this is a long post, but is the most helpful information I can post.

This is exactly what I went through to set up the unit with the Roadster.

Starting with a comletely blank patch on the GT-8 (NOTHING on, not even the noise suppressor), check your input levels on the GT-8 alone. You don't have to have any other cable connected to the unit other than your guitar for this. Check your levels with palm-muted E major chords...those usually register the loudest. Move through every stage of your level meter to make sure you're not getting any spikes along the way. The meter should never spike above 70%.

Now, start turning on your effects ONE AT A TIME TESTING ONLY ONE EFFECT AT A TIME. This is where you'll be able to find out the gain factors of each effect. For example, the Chorus effect has a rather high gain factor and in stock trim typically pegs out the meter of the block following the chorus. Go through each of your levels and meters to ensure that you've got unity gain throughout each effect block. Take note that you'll also want to organize your effects chain in the unit in the order you normally operate in, as each effect is cumulative (effect 1 in the chain will always be affected by effects 2, 3 and 4, and effect 4 will always depend on the levels it receives from effects 1, 2 and 3). This takes some time and it is not a simple 5 minute exercise. The time you take now will pay off, trust me.

After your levels are set and you've got as close to unity gain as possible across the board on the GT-8, you can now connect the unit to your amp. This is the method I recommend.

Starting with the Roadster, set your power levels and rectifier tracking the way you want. Remember to set turn the effects loop on. On the Roadster footswitch, move to channel 1, turn the effects loop on. The solo and reverb should be turned off. Set your voice switches (clean, fat, tweed, etc) for all channels and set your basic levels (the master output on the Roadster should be set at a reasonable level...it will have no effect on the level matching tests to follow).

Connect your guitar directly into the input of the amp and connect the GT-8 in the effects loop. DO NOT CONNECT THE EFFECTS SEND ON THE ROADSTER TO THE INPUT OF THE GT-8. You're not going to be running it that way anyway. Connect the effects send from the Roadster to the effects return on the GT-8 and connect the output (left channel) on the GT-8 to the effects return on the Roadster. Now, place the FX LOOP on the GT-8 where you want it in the effects chain (after any pre amps and overdrive/distortion effects, but before any delay, chorus or modulation effects). KEEP IN MIND THAT DURING THIS SETUP PROCESS ALL EFFECTS SHOULD STILL BE TURNED OFF ON THE UNIT.

You will now calibrate your levels (WARNING, YOU WILL BE ASKED TO TURN SOME KNOBS ON THE AMP). Move to the back of the Roadster and set the effects loop level to 50%. Again, with all effects TURNED OFF on the GT-8, turn on your meter and scroll all the way to the first effect block that falls after your effects return on the GT-8. Again, palm muted E major chords do the trick. Check your levels. Your levels should match...again, no more than 70% on the meter, but what you should really be shooting for is an exact match to what you saw on the meter when you connected directly to the input on the GT-8. Adjust your levels AT THE AMP to compensate (I'm sure you know this, but the level control on each channel controls the signal level at the effects send...the effects send level is a secondary control that controls global output at the effects send). Turn up the channel's level control if your meter shows a low reading and down if it shows a higher reading. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THE VOLUME YOU ACTUALLY HEAR RIGHT NOW...you will deal with this later. If you are unhappy with the tone, that will come later as well. Right now we're just balancing levels.

Move through each channel and do the same thing as above.

Now the test...does your overall level match when you bypass the GT-8? Again, playing a simple chord, use the Effects Loop bypass switch on the Roadster foot controller. Play a chord and bypass the effects loop. Did you notice a difference in level? If the overall volume from the amp is lower when the effects loop is engaged, compensate by turning up the level control ON THE BACK OF THE GT-8. Do not adjust any volume levels in the effects block, just use the level control on the rear of the GT-8. Continue to adjust until your loop-engaged level matches your loop-bypassed level. Once you've got this, the rest is cake.

Re-test your levels by turning on effects ONE AT A TIME INDIVIDUALLY and checking your levels again with the meters. At this point, no matter what amp channel or effect you use, you should hear no difference in the volume coming from the speakers (you will hear a perceived volume difference with the higher gain channels, but the actual level the GT-8 reads will be the same). If everything still matches up, we can now move on to the preamp section.

You will now connect the GT-8 to the Roadster via 4 cable method.

Again, with all of your effects turned off on the GT-8, check your meter reading. Your levels should remain the same throughout each effect block. If you notice a huge change between your preamp effects and effects loop effects levels, go back through the effects loop level set up because you missed something somewhere.

Now, start going through your preamp effects turning on one at a time individually. What you should be aiming for, especially with any overdrive/distortion effects, is a gain boost, not a level boost. I know that typically, gain=volume increase, but that's not what we're aiming for here. Set your gain and level settings on the effects. Again, you should not get any level increase. With overdrive effects, you're looking for a perceived gain increase with no level change. Check your meters to make sure you're not changing any levels. The majority of this process is simply repeating what you did in the effects loop setup process. If you have any specific questions, let me know.

If you want a volume increase for solos or louder sections, use the solo feature on the amp. You should not use the GT-8 for any level increase as this will upset your gain balance in the unit. Now that all of your levels are set and balanced between the GT-8 and Roadster, you can start shaping your tones with the EQ on the Roadster. After your EQ is set, check your levels once again to make sure you did not upset your level balance. If you did, simply adjust using the level control on the amp channel that's affected. Your overall volume should now be controlled with the MASTER VOLUME ON THE AMP. Do not adjust any levels in the GT-8 or the effects send/channel level controls on the Roadster. Doing so will upset your level balance.

You should now have a nice INIT patch to base all of your Roadster patches on. Keep a blank, unchanged copy of this patch on bank 1 (copy it to all 4 patches just so you know you will have a backup - name the patch INIT-ROADSTER). I copied this same INIT patch and saved it to banks 1-20 on my unit. This way you've got a blank patch everywhere just in case. Now program your patches based on the effects you want. I typically operated in just one patch using the unit in manual mode, turning on and off effects as needed with the foot switches on the unit, but you can set up patches as needed with various effects combinations. If you really want to get fancy, pick up a GCX switcher and use the GT-8 to control it via MIDI for some real flexibility.

Troubleshooting

You will probably get a lot of noise just with the cable runs alone. Amplifying this noise with further gain from the GT-8 is a bad idea. Keep your levels low in the unit and compensate with the volume on the rear of the GT-8.

Ground Loops. You're going to have them. If the noise suppressor on the GT-8 can't handle it, or if you're getting some tone loss with the suppressor, cut some of the grounds in your cables. You will need to label the cables if you do this to make sure you reconnect them correctly. Here's the run down.

Guitar to GT-8 - ground should remain intact on both plugs

GT-8 to Roadster input - ground should remain intact on both plugs

Roadster effects send to GT-8 effects return - cut the ground on the GT-8 side

GT-8 output to Roadster effects return - cut the ground on the GT-8 side

Inductance noise. Keep the GT-8 power transformer as far away from the GT8 and your signal lines as possible. The transformer in this thing is a huge source of noise. Try to keep the power cable away from your signal cables as much as possible as well.

Tracking problems. If you have an effect in the GT-8 that starts freaking out (typically this happens on any pitch shifting or harmony effects), move that effect to the front of your signal chain before any other effects (IE, if you're using the pedal bend effect, you will need to move FX2 to the front of your signal chain within the GT-8). This should fix the problem. If it does not, try putting a mild compressor in the effects chain before FX2...this should make the effect track a little better.

This should do it. I'll continue to search for the sysx whenever I get my archive drive back in my PC. Hell, at this point I'm almost willing to take advantage of Guitar Center's return policy to get a unit home and set up the patch for you. I know this is a lot of reading, and hopefully it all made sense, but if you have any questions, let me know.
 
Twostring-

That is an amazing tutorial- when I have a couple hours I will dive into this. Thanks-
Sounds intimidating but worthwhile. I sure hope you can find that sysx....
Heres hoping-

Best-

Laskyman
 
No problem. Yes, it is a rather lengthy process, but I took care of my GT-8/Roadster setup in about 4 hours on a Saturday. After that, setting up new effects with the INIT patch was cake, and running external effects (mostly a TS-9 and Dunlop 535Q wah) was easy as well.
 
first off twostring i'm floored by that post..... i'm hoping i can use that with the zoom g9.2tt thats coming in thursday (dont laugh... i played this thing for an hour the other day and i was impressed)......

second laskyman..... iposted the same question in the modern amp forum and got some great responses (none as thorough as two strings) but there was osme great stuff there..... there is also this thing called the harmonic converger built especially for the gt8 as well as other modellers that is suppose to work great especially great with tube amps... check it out
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=15474
 
jdurso...the same concepts apply to just about any effects unit, digital or analog. But with analog, you don't have the luxury of level meters :D

I've often thought about the HC, but I never had a use for one really. I bought the GT-8 initially for the effects, but then I started using it as my preamp through the tube power amp on my HRD. When I got the Mesa, I switched back to effects only on the GT-8. I loved the sound with all three configurations, so I never really felt a need for an HC. No disrespect to Hadley, I think he's really built something unique and very useful, but I felt I could EQ the fizz out on the GT-8. Maybe it was the fact that I was using a tube power amp, or maybe it was just a happy accident. If you're struggling with the GT-8, then the HC is a great fix it all solution for any EQ/tonal response issues. I was just lucky enough to have never experienced that (except when I was being hard headed about setting up the GT-8 with the Roadster :D ).

Congrats on the Zoom. I personally feel that Samson is a bit behind in the quality of their samples, but the technology and hardware is there. One firmware update and that thing would be the monster it should be. Hopefully Samson gets around to doing that soon.
 
I own a HC- ran it with my former rig, and if I just play with the 8, it is in the loop- and believe me- the GT8 is an entirely different machine with it.
Some people "bag" on the HC. They obviously dont own one. You can somewhat EQ out the fizz, but you will not accomplish what a HC does. I have a loop HC, so with my Mesa Head and GT8 via 4CM, there isn't a place to put it. I guarantee that if I *could* incorporate it, the OD/DIS unit on the 8 would come back to life.
My former rig was all tube power (Mesa 20/20 pushing a GFlex 212)- and as warm as it was, the HC made it WAY more organic, "urgent", and dynamic.
The GT8 is a good multiFX. A HC turns it into a full-blown preamp.
Now my preamp tones come from a Roadster Head, and I seriously want the 8 to be the effects because of its versatility and flexibility.
I have a TON of stomps from all of my buddies right beside me, and with the exception of the wah (CRY535Q), the 8 is smoking them via 4CM- and I have yet to try Twostrings level matching....

Laskyman
 
Have you tried the HC with the Mesa? Maybe place it between the GT-8 effects send and the input on the Roadster. I'm interested to hear if you've tried that combination...could make your overdrive effects on the GT-8 a bit smoother as they go into the preamp on the Roadster.
 
Thanks 2string. That was an awesome post. I'm currently running a GT8 w/ my Stiletto Trident S1. I haven't yet been totally satisfied with the setup as I can tell that the GT8 is affecting the Stiletto's tone.
Stompboxes just aren't for me and I'm not ready to inest in rackmount units. I'm going to try what you've outlined to see if it tickles my pickle.


Laskyman... what were the pros and cons of the GT8 into the 2:90. I prefer to run stereo, but don't want to haul 2 heads. I've been thinking about going the GT8 & 2:90 route recently and would greatly appreciate your thoughts.
 
what were the pros and cons of the GT8 into the 2:90

I ran a 20/20, not a 2:90, but you will have the same results. The 8 through a stereo tube power section is really great, and the 20/20 is plenty powerful enough for most places. The pros are as follows:
1- true stereo
2- near limitless tonal options (amp & cab sims, dual mono combinations)
3- fairly simple set-up (and, if done correctly, you can have the same tone both direct and recorded)
4- Limitless Flexibility (assignable controls and expression pedal, many user banks, real-time switching of nearly any possible parameter, completely changable effect chain, very good FX and many complete control of individual effect parameters, good on board tuner and noise gate...)

Cons-
1) without a Harmonic Converger (additional purchase), high gain amp sims and OD/DIS sims are brittle and fizzy and you really can not EQ it out regardless of what some may claim
2) endless tweaking
3) amp sims are mostly just "reasonable facsimiles" and lack true dynamics- especially the mid-range low gain clip- it really isnt happening if you know what I mean. If you have been using a big-boy amp for a while, I think that the amp sims in most modelers will leave you "gassing" for *that* sound. For me, those sounds are in my Roadster, and you can *feel* them when you play. The GT8 is a great tool, and with a Harmonic Converger, CAN be a great preamp as well. Prior to getting a Roadster I used the GT series for 5 years. I only wish I would have purchased an HC sooner.
If you are having trouble with the 4CM (it takes time), check out GT Central- there is a module devoted to GT8 connections with a great sticky by a gent named French Fries- not as in-depth as twostrings post, but helpful none the less-
Hope this helps-
Laskyman
 
Laskyman said:
I own a HC- ran it with my former rig, and if I just play with the 8, it is in the loop- and believe me- the GT8 is an entirely different machine with it.
Some people "bag" on the HC. They obviously dont own one. You can somewhat EQ out the fizz, but you will not accomplish what a HC does.
Laskyman
If you have a HC you may find this thread interesting, it’s over at the Line6 forum. For those of you who don’t know this is a topic at the Line6 forum that pops up from time to time and basically starts wars. The mention of the HC gets certain people crazy over there. This thread is accurately very mild.
http://line6.com/support/thread.jspa?messageID=51789&#51789

I also have an HC I’m not as hot on it as you, but I also use it in a different way and with different equipment. Basically direct recording with a POD XT. I’m I glad I have it? “Yes”. It sounds great with allot of the models and not so hot with others (basically anything high-gain sounds great) and Radley (line6 user name) will tell you this up front.
The only thing I disagree with you, I can EQ the fizz out off a track and make it sound similar to the HC (not exact) but I need a 4 band parametric EQ to do this. But which is easier to deal with and cheaper mmmmmm ahh yes the HC. Oh and also allot more road portable.
 
this is a topic at the Line6 forum that pops up from time to time and basically starts wars

Yeah, when I initially began researching the HC claims, I read quite a bit about the HC over there. Unfortunately, I dont think I made it to a real forum, because what I was reading I am pretty sure came out of a 7th grade locker room. Pretty ridiculous.

basically anything high-gain sounds great

Yes, so much so that after having played with the HC for a good amount of time, I find most GT8 Higher Gain stages to be UNusable without it. I imagine that is the same with the Line 6?

I can EQ the fizz out off a track and make it sound similar to the HC

When applying additional EQ to reduce the fizz, do you find that the "presence" and "urgency" are also introduced in the same fashion as the HC (if that makes sense)? If so, I think you are on to something great!...

Laskyman
 
Laskyman said:
Unfortunately, I dont think I made it to a real forum, because what I was reading I am pretty sure came out of a 7th grade locker room. Pretty ridiculous.
7th grade? You are being to kind!

Laskyman said:
When applying additional EQ to reduce the fizz, do you find that the "presence" and "urgency" are also introduced in the same fashion as the HC (if that makes sense)? If so, I think you are on to something great!...
No the presence and urgency to speak of that’s something unique to the HC, but that added presence of the HC is what got me fooling around with a parametric EQ in the first place. Not all but certain amp models on the POD XT the presence hits you in the face even after editing the patches or the opposite happens you dial down the presence then all the sudden too far in the opposite direction, certain models just can’t get there. I can give the parametric a bit of a presence thump (around 4.5 – 5K) and it will sound more like the HC if needed. It has been said on the Line6 forum that the HC is a low pass filter (which makes sense) and your output is a combination of your filtered signal and the input signal (which also makes sense. This is one of the reasons you can’t nail it exact without going to great difficulties.
Thought you might be curious of some of the curves I have used, these are post curves added after the track is laid down. I’ll only do this if I’m having a problem with a certain model with the XT and the HC is not exactly there. Get the best sound I can lay down the track. The track will usually sound good on its own (I really don’t have a fizz problem but have tweaked it out of other people’s tracks) but when thrown in with the rest of the mix “hmmmm” EQ it and it sounds allot better and in its place. But I just rather use the HC allot less BS to deal with. Some of my curves are in the same area where the HC performs its magic (not trying to match the HC & remember these curves are added post tracking)
I’m with you Laskyman, the people that claim they can get rid of the fizz with the POD’s onboard EQ. Well they can! But sacrifice other things in the process. You need a parametric with a “Q” to come close to the HC even then it’s not everything the HC is.
As far as my EQ curves don’t forget we use different equipment and you deal with live situations and with me for direct recording 2:00AM or whatever. Cause the bottom line as far as cutting tracks.
“Give me a tube amp and a SM57 anyday”
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All I can say to all of this is: Awesome. I thought I was the only one.

I upgraded from the GT 6 to the GT 8 in December, and it took me about a month to come up with all new patches (I had to get rid of the 6 before I got the 8). Then I ended up selling my old fender amp and getting a roadster within a couple of weeks. It took me about 3 months of struggling before I sold the roadster, although that was mostly due to the roadster having some kind of defect in the gain that a few different mesa techs could never figure out. I sold the roadster to some guy who was okay using it only for the clean channel. I rebought a road king, and after struggling for another 4 months and getting pretty dang close (aside from a little unshakable noise, tonal coloration and signal loss), I finally am buying a gcx and ground control pro to control my g force. A really really really long, frustrating, and expensive process. But **** did I learn a lot in the process. +1 to 2strings set up approach. It took me waaaaaay too long to figure out how to essential do what he told you to.
 
Great writeup twostring, now you have me GASing for a GT8 again (I've had and returned 3 of them :( ) but I'm seriously thinking about getting the G-System.
 
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