Another TC-100 vs Badlander topic + a novel trick

[bandit2013]

I wanted to share something interesting about the Triple Crown 100.
When I fist got the Badlander 100, first thing that came up was it has the same head shell with different face plate and an added grill on the top of the amp. Sure, two channels, 3 voices, no reverb, and lots of other features that the Triple Crown has to offer. They cost about the same (or they did a month ago but that changed recently).
BL100 sells for $2749 and the TC100 sells for $2949. Perhaps I got that wrong and confused the TC-100 with the MWDR price tag. I have not been keeping up with prices.

Yep, the Triple Crown is loaded with plenty of good stuff. For those who are familiar with my posts, you already know I favor the Royal Atlantic over the Triple Crown. That was until early today. I found a novel trick that improves the Triple Crown performance to the point I actually love it now. A simple $25 part changes everything. That costs a few dollars less than the Mesa equivalent. I had several of these in my possession and never tried it with the Triple Crown. I call the mod the blanket removal trick. Change that Mesa Branded Chinese 12AT7 tube with something of better audio quality like the JAN Phillips 12AT7. That is it.

For the longest time I struggled to get more volume out of the TC100. First thought it may be a switch glitch and the amp is stuck in 50W power mode. Nope, that still cut output levels down. All of the switch positions attenuated as they should. This issue became more apparent when I was comparing the new BL-100 to the TC-100. Once you hear them in person, you would think the Triple Crown is a shoe in for the Badlander. It is not. However, that opinion changed today.

Some back story: I favored the Royal Atlantic because it was not sterile. It had some dynamics that were pleasing to the ear no matter how aggressive I made it or dialed it back. Sure the Multi-soak did what it was advertised to do. Allows for more power tube saturation before it begins to attenuate. It is most notable with some quality power tubes like the NOS SED =C= EL34 (Mesa STR442). I would assume the NOS Siemens EL34 (Mesa STR450) would have some similar traits. Unless you have those tubes or can find them, they are mostly consumed and long gone. The same would apply to the tunable hi/lo preamp section. RFT 12AX7A in V1 and Ei CV492 in V2. For me that is pure bliss in the RA.

Triple Crown cannot be tune with NOS preamp tubes in the hi/lo gain section. I have tried about all of the current production 12AX7 tubes, and a few NOS preamp tubes. What tricks I have done with the RA do not work with the TC. As it seems, the only means to change the amps characteristic is with the FX tube, phase inverter and power tubes. The novel trick was discovered today as I was looking into why the TC-100 was not delivering that 100W sound. Almost like I had a blanket over the speaker cab. Even maxing out the global master volume and channel masters had no effect. To be honest, thought the TC-50 was louder. Turns out that Chinese 12AT7 tube is unpredictable. It may even degrade gradually without you noticing it. I had the same 12AT7 tube in the Royal Atlantic and noticed a tone shift in the top end. Tried one of the JAN Phillips I had on hand, sure the sound I enjoyed so much was back with spades. Decided to try the same 12AT7 in the Triple Crown. Hell yeah, that fixed the volume issue and a bit more.

Rolling back on guitar volume actually sounds way better with a moderate to aggressive setting on the Hi gain channel. I lost all that fizzy stuff and retained similar sound level as I got at full guitar volume. That was a surprise. All this time I was hearing the TC-100 with a blanketed tone. I have changed the 12AT7 with the same Mesa tube before. Did not make a difference in volume level or overall characteristic. That has now changed for the better. I did not realize how aggressive the Triple Crown really was. Today was almost like getting a new amp.

Just for kicks, I decided to pit the Triple Crown against the Badlander. Both were using STR447 EL34 tubes. Cabinets used wer the Mesa standard 412 cabinet. I also used the Mesa switch track to change between the two amps. I turned off the reverb on the TC and used the stereo set up I had been using with the two RA100s. I did not record anything so if you were expecting a sound recording or video, you may need to wait for a long time. I did take a picture of the two amp control settings. TC Hi gain as dialed matched up with the BK CH2 in Crush. The TC lo gain as dialed matched to the BL CH1 on crunch. I could not tell the difference between the two amps. There was still some room to increase the gain on the TC. the BL had more room do increase the gain with the crush voice.

If you have the TC-100, before you trade it in for the Badlander, try the JAN Phillips 12AT7 trick in V5 firs (replacing the stock Chinese 12AT7). If you got your TC recently, I am aware that Mesa has changed to Tung Sol 12AT7 as that was what they loaded up the TT-800 bass amp. It may still have the Chinese 12AT7 preamp tube though.

Hard to believe, how dissimilar the two were to how similar they are now. I was considering getting another Badlander100 to run as a stereo rig with the other one. May not need to do that now.

How do I like the TC-100 now? I am far more satisfied with it. It may not replace the RA, but have to say the TC100 sounds incredible. Will have to try this trick with the TC-50 and see what happens.

 

[bandit2013]

I spent some more time with the two last night. As it seems the more time invested, the more I can hear the differences between the two.
Apple vs Orange? I would say JP2C vs Mark V. You can dial in the JP2C to match the Mark V but you can't go the other way. TC has a bit more midrange content that seems difficult to evade unless you drop the midrange all the way. At first run, you probably would not notice the subtle difference in tone. However, once you start altering controls it becomes more apparent that each amp is using a different preamp design. One is a little dry and the other is a little wet. I still favor the Badlander but that is my opinion. I was excited how much of a difference the FX tube made on the TC.

 

[bandit2013]

After yesterday, Had the idea of trying out the EHx 6CA7 in the Triple Crown. First time I ran those was for a short time just to hear the difference with the EL34 variants. Got them in first thing from returning from work. Holy Hanna. This is more of an apples to apples tone comparison now.

Wonder what the Badlander would sound like with the 6CA7? Not ready to find that out yet. I like it as it is with the stock tubes.

I would find it hard to determine which amp was which in a blind test. Perhaps by tomorrow I will think it sounds different again.

 

[rarebitusa]

Good thing you dusted off the TC and didn't have to pay anything, well maybe the $25, for a Mesa NAD. That's an excellent deal.

 

[bandit2013]

To be honest. The Royal Atlantic is it for me. The Triple Crown still has not consumed my attention.
However, it is great to hear the TC is on par. Have to dust off the TC-50 and see how that goes. Been a long time since the cover has been off of that amp. Come to think of it, the JP2C is also under the covers. I think I favor the EL34 sound more than the 6L6.

 

[sloanthebone]

Great info! Following. After selling off all my amps 4 years (Mark V, Mark V:35, TC-50), I have a TC-50 and Badlander 50 coming tomorrow. Will see what your thoughts are on the change in your TC-50 And will order some new tubes to try out.

I swear this same thing was talked about on this forum 4-6 years ago about this amp. Maybe it was a different one but I do remember changing a pre-amp tube in one of my Mesa’s that changed the character of the amp. Maybe I am wrong, it’s been a long time.

Edit: so it was the Mark V that the tube change was in and it was from your thread back in 2017.

 

[bandit2013]

Great info! Following. After selling off all my amps 4 years (Mark V, Mark V:35, TC-50), I have a TC-50 and Badlander 50 coming tomorrow. Will see what your thoughts are on the change in your TC-50 And will order some new tubes to try out.

I swear this same thing was talked about on this forum 4-6 years ago about this amp. Maybe it was a different one but I do remember changing a pre-amp tube in one of my Mesa’s that changed the character of the amp. Maybe I am wrong, it’s been a long time.

Edit: so it was the Mark V that the tube change was in and it was from your thread back in 2017.

The Mark V thing was called the saturation mod. In this case it is not a saturation mod. Just a swap of one 12AT7 for another used in the FX loop circuit.

As for the TC-50, have not tried a better tube in the V5 spot, still have the Chinese 12AT7 there. I would assume over time, the Chinese 12AT7 will drift and loose its character as it is a cathode follower circuit. The Royal Atlantic has the same deal but different tube position. At best, I only noticed a tone shift not a a major volume loss. This was without using the FX loop too. Almost as if the TC100 stuck in a 50W or less power soak mode, but it was not. Total eye opener as I had other Mesa 12AT7 to use and have replaced it when first noticed the dramatic loss of volume. Even replaced the power tubes, same thing.

Never thought about using the JAN Phillips 12AT7 as I assumed ti would be too dark in tone. To my surprise, it was not and actually sounded a bit more alive than flat. Note that this is not a saturation mod or gain change of any sort. Just a sound quality and response fix. FX tube circuit is always in the signal path, regardless if you plug something into the fx loop or not. No hard bypass around it. If it had a hard bypass circuit, you could simply remove the tube and the amp would work without it. I tried it since I do not have a schematic to see what is going on there. Anyhow, I though the 12AT7 was an improvement in performance. The change also did not sound as flat or dull. We are not talking 3D effect (you only get that with the power tube swap), just an overall improvement that was noticeable.

I did write up several pages on the TC-50 forums on power tube experiments. Gold Lion KT77 were awesome. Ruby EL34BSTR? were really good too but you can't get those anymore. Mullard reissue el34 was a bit too swamped. For some reason or another, I favored the TC-50 a bit more than the TC-100 even though it had less low end. 6V6 tubes were a sweet change for the TC-50 but a mud factory for the TC100. Go figure. I have to dig out the TC-50 from the storage area (hallway in the home that does not get used). Curious to see how that changes with the JAN Phillips 12AT7.

 

[bandit2013]

I had to pull the TC-50 chassis out as I stumbled across an issue, or I thought. For some reason or another the clean channel was almost muted. Could not get any sound out of it. Thought one of the preamp tubes took a nose dive on me.

To start with, I was running the TC-50 and TC-100 using a Lehel P-Split III isolated signal splitter. I was also running the TC-50 with the footswitch and daisy chained the midi to the TC-100 (set to a different channel) All was good for a while with all three channels. For some odd reason, the clean channel just would not work, it was so faint, no volume from the TC-50. I did not notice if the TC-100 was acting in the same way.

Going from the dead clean channel to the lo gain or hi gain channel resulted in some weird noise before sound level was where it should be. First thought that I blew out the strobe mute circuit again. It was possible one of the preamp tubes has lost is way. I did disconnect from the TC-100 and still no change.

Pulled the chassis out, set it up on the cab powered it back up without the footswitch and all was good. That was odd. Oh well, while I had the chassis out I wanted to change the FX tube again. I had used an RFT tube and not the JAN Phillips 12AT7. Found one I had set aside for my bass amp. That was better. I did pull the preamp tubes from the clean channel. Forgot that V1 closer to the front and not the one behind it. Wanted to see if a JAN GE 5751 would help to reduce the low end. Not bad. Almost left it that way but the original went back in. The drive voice of the clean channel had a nice character to it with the 5751 tube. You can get some subtle change with preamp tubes but usually not the end result you want. It will not be dramatic like a Mark V or moderate like with the RA hi/lo section.

Tried a pair of Tung Sol EL34B. That actually sounded great. Perhaps the JAN Phillips 12AT7 does really make a difference in the TC-50. I was sort of hooked on the Ruby EL34BHT though as they complimented the EH 6CA7 I had in the TC-100.

I did try the stock Mesa STR447 EL34s for a short period. OK I guess. The TungSol EL34B is a higher impedance EL34, not sure about the Ruby BHT. Either TS or Ruby were much better than the EH EL34 (mesa STR447).

Got everything assembled and hooked up the stereo rig setup. Everything was working but did notice the volume on the clean was much lower than it was when I ran the amp by itself. Well duh, I had the two amps out of phase. Pressed in the phase button on the splitter and no longer felt stupid.

Just a note: The TungSol EL34B or Ruby EL34BHT, the will bring out the bottom end of the TC-50 without any muddiness.
The real magic to the TC series is when you run a TC-100 and TC-50. Since the TC-100 is a bit more saturated tone wise, the TC-50 has a unique dryness, and both are tight. The blue channel (CH2) never sounded better. I am getting some interesting tones and a bit of power sag on some low chords. The Red channel (CH3) does not seem to have that characteristic, probably due to having more compression. I am having a difficult time deciding which channel I like best. Red or Blue. I am hearing a hint of Recto in the Blue channel and a real convincing Badlander in the Red channel. All this without the use of an EQ pedal in the fx loop.

I did favor using an EQ pedal with the TC-100 with the stock tubes. The same can be said for the TC-50. I have been running the pair together for a little while now and have yet to add in any GEQ in the FX loop. It just sounds that good. It is like having a NAD with gear you already had, but was covered up and sitting unused waiting for me to decide if I am going to sell them or keep them. I will be keeping them.

 

[jnoel64]

When the Mark V Saturation Mod thread was on fire, I acquired a few JAN 12AT7 tubes. Just for fun, I decided I wanted to swap the stock AT7 in my TC-50 with the JAN. When I pulled the stock tube, I was shocked to find one of the pins was bent. So, I just went ahead with the swap and tossed the factory tube. I could not be happier!
I've used the TS EL34Bs in my ElectraDyne forever. I've always loved the sound of those tubes in that amp. Once my JAN 6V6 tubes in my TC start to bore me, I will definitely try the TS tubes in the TC. Thanks for the info!

 

[bandit2013]

When the Mark V Saturation Mod thread was on fire, I acquired a few JAN 12AT7 tubes. Just for fun, I decided I wanted to swap the stock AT7 in my TC-50 with the JAN. When I pulled the stock tube, I was shocked to find one of the pins was bent. So, I just went ahead with the swap and tossed the factory tube. I could not be happier!
I've used the TS EL34Bs in my ElectraDyne forever. I've always loved the sound of those tubes in that amp. Once my JAN 6V6 tubes in my TC start to bore me, I will definitely try the TS tubes in the TC. Thanks for the info!

Hey, did you know the ElectraDyne has much of the same preamp circuit as the Badlander? Sure there are some major differences, power section mostly. I did not know the ED had a cold clipper and cathode follower tone stack driver. Also, the clean channel is probably the same used in the Royal Atlantic and Triple Crown. Compensated with some op-amps. My interest in getting one has grown but seems like not many available except for the combo. I will keep looking.

 

[jnoel64]

Hey, did you know the ElectraDyne has much of the same preamp circuit as the Badlander? Sure there are some major differences, power section mostly. I did not know the ED had a cold clipper and cathode follower tone stack driver. Also, the clean channel is probably the same used in the Royal Atlantic and Triple Crown. Compensated with some op-amps. My interest in getting one has grown but seems like not many available except for the combo. I will keep looking.

I had no clue, but it makes me smile to thing MB is using that same circuit. I did know the RA had a similar circuit, and the RA was actually my first choice for an amp. But, I found the ED and I felt like that was more what I was after. Had no experience with either amp before and still have none with the RA. The Dyne has such THUMP! I always described the tone as a cinder block hitting me square in the chest. Yet, zero mud. Still my favorite amp of all time. Definitely need a decent boost in front, though. Many have complained about the shared EQ, but I was always able to make it work in spades for me. I just got tired of lugging around a full size, heavy head around, especially at 2 am after a gig.

The BL has such a great sound all by itself. It sounds and feels so versatile. My next outdoor gig will feature my BL25 without a doubt.

 

[jnoel64]

Hey, did you know the ElectraDyne has much of the same preamp circuit as the Badlander? Sure there are some major differences, power section mostly. I did not know the ED had a cold clipper and cathode follower tone stack driver. Also, the clean channel is probably the same used in the Royal Atlantic and Triple Crown. Compensated with some op-amps. My interest in getting one has grown but seems like not many available except for the combo. I will keep looking.

There are 2 ED heads and a rackmount on Reverb FWIW. Both heads are the full-sized heads (like mine). I would love to find the smaller headshell and swap the chasis out.

 

[bandit2013]

There are 2 ED heads and a rackmount on Reverb FWIW. Both heads are the full-sized heads (like mine). I would love to find the smaller headshell and swap the chasis out.

I was also looking for the smaller head version. I saw the one's on reverb. Shipping cost would be high. I will keep searching. One of these days I will find one.

 

[bandit2013]

Life gets complicated enough. The bottom line, choose which amp fits your needs. They are all great amps. If you end up with a collection, the problem becomes deciding on which amp to use.

 

[jnoel64]

Life gets complicated enough. The bottom line, choose which amp fits your needs. They are all great amps. If you end up with a collection, the problem becomes deciding on which amp to use.

Exactly! That's my dilemma for this summer. Which amp to take to which gig. I want to rotate them all, so I guess it will be a dice roll. Just need to assign numbers 1-6 on each amp.

 

[jnoel64]

I've used my BL25 at several gigs this summer. It never disappointed me in the slightest. Just pure rock tones all night long. It even handled my acoustic sim pedal like a champ. I sometimes have a little buyer's remorse that I didn't get the 50 watt head instead of the 25 watt combo. Not so much for the increased wattage, but for the bigger tubes and transformer. But, at the end of the day, I am still very satisfied with the amp.

 

[bandit2013]

That is cool. Never considered the mini versions of any product. I watched the demo video of the 25W and it sounded good.

I thought Mesa had a 25W version of the Triple Crown. Must have been thinking you get that with the 6V6 tubes in the TC50.

 

[jnoel64]

I think that assumption about the TC50 pretty much nails it.

I decided to get the BL25 combo to use as a "grab and go" amp. I have plenty of heads and cabs, but very few combos. I am not disappointed in the slightest with my purchase decision.

Several years ago, I was considering the V35 because of the infamous V90 mod thread. But, when I saw all the modes that were missing in the V35, I opted for a V90 instead. Even though that amp is long gone now, I don't regret that decision, either.

When it comes to 100 watt amps, I honestly have no real need for an amp that big anymore. Yes, I understand that more iron = more tone, but I haven't really felt the need to get the bigger amps for what I'm doing. Not to mention that hauling, setting up and tearing down is much easier on my aging body than 100 watt heads and 4x12 cabs. I don't even remember the last time I used my 4x12.

 

[bandit2013]

I sort of moved away from the 412 cab too. One exception is the RA100. Does not fit on the vertical 212 cab. Never checked to see if the rubber feet will fit. I can use that amp all day without feeling like it is too much for the room. I do not gig so that is easy. Set up and leave it. I move things around from time to time so depends on what I feel like playing I guess. RA100 is and will be the go to amp for me but the Badlander is taking over that role more than I expected it too.

As for the TC100 and TC50, not sure what I plan to do with those two. They are fun amps but may decide to sell them. Time will tell though. For some reason, it may be better to hold onto them. Not sure if Mesa will continue with the TC or discontinue it due to parts resourcing issues. It may pick back up again.

I get the point on the smaller amps. Good to year the BAD25 is keeping up with the big brothers.
It you still run with the JP2C, hint, the STR448 in green or gray bias color are almost as good as the STR415. Still deciding which I like better.

 

[jnoel64]

Somewhere, I have some used 415s. I tried them in my V90 before I sold it and was blown away. I may have to dig for them and pop them into my JP2C. Aren't those new 448s actually TAD Redbase tubes?