TC100 FX Loop Driver V5

[domct203]

After reading this post from another Triple Crown thread ( Another TC-100 vs Badlander topic + a novel trick ) I decided to try a late ‘70’s Mullard CV4024 that I’ve had for some time in my TC100’s FX Loop driver position (V5).

I can’t believe how much impact this had to the bottom end fullness of both my TC100’s. It’s a very noticeable improvement from the stock Mesa tubes.

Interesting note, of the two TC100’s I own, one always sounded a bit fuller, with a tad more to the bottom end. That head (built 2020) had a Mesa branded Tung Sol 12AT7 vs the Chinese 12AT7 in the other head (built 2018).

The CV4024 made both amps nearly identical.

I ordered a pair of JAN Philips 12AT7 Black Plates to try in V5 as well. I’m curious how they compare to the Mullards.

Dom

 

[jnoel64]

When I pulled the Mesa AT7 from my TC50, the pins were bent from the factory. I replaced mine with the JAN Phillips 12AT7 and have never looked back. Personally, I never noticed that mythical "tone suck" from the effects loop, but I can say with complete confidence now that I don't hear nor feel it with the JAN in place. Those tubes are magical and bullet proof.

 

[domct203]

I’ve rolled tubes thru the other positions with very little noticeable difference in the amp, but this change in V5 was very noticeable. The tone is fuller and the amp feels smoother. I’m going to leave the Mullards in for a while before I try the JAN Philips, right now I’m so happy with the amps that I’m afraid to touch anything LOL

 

[bandit2013]

I only changed to the JAN/Phillips in the TC100 to replace the current 12AT7 (chinese). Volume was just not right. The TC50 was louder than the TC100 (set to 100W). Since the FX send is a cathode follower circuit and the return is (assumed) to restore to original level, it would make sense to have a balanced 12AT7. Most JAN tubes will have a good match in triodes. A person named Andy Field who design the Mesa Subway series I have touched base with (Mesa boogie bass players club in Facebook), mentioned that the Chinese 12AT7 lacked the stability or desired characteristics. Tubes tested all over the place and were not consistent. The Tung Sol 12AT7 was more stable and had better performance characteristics. However, I tried the JAN/Phillips 12AT7 and RFT 12AT7 in my TT800 bass amp, I got more of a natural airy sound. That preamp is all about cathode followers. A notable difference compared to the Tung Sol. Note that the RFT 12AT7 is much darker than the JAN/Phillips 12AT7 (more predictable). I ran the RFT in one of my Royal Atlantic amps as I had issue with the Chinese 12AT7 in it before. Never thought about trying a change in the TC but that did the trick.

TC series, only way to make it sound different, change FX tube, Phase inverter tube and power tubes. That is about it. Have not experimented with the phase inverter though.

 

[jnoel64]

I have a habit of putting a Sovtek 12AX7LPS in the PI slot of most of my amps. I read about that tube years ago and just stuck with it. Any suggestions for a different/better PI tube?

 

[bandit2013]

I have a habit of putting a Sovtek 12AX7LPS in the PI slot of most of my amps. I read about that tube years ago and just stuck with it. Any suggestions for a different/better PI tube?

Depends on the amp in question.

• Some people like the 12AT7 in the phase inverter. Works great with some of the older Mark amps. Not bad in the JP-2C. Have not tried it in the TC. For the TC, generally just run the stock tube.
• Thought the 12AX7LPS thinned out the tone a bit. The alternative is the Mullard reissue 12AX7 (long plate) as it is the same tube but selected with better characteristics (more of a fuller tone).

 

[rarebitusa]

Depends on the amp in question.

• Some people like the 12AT7 in the phase inverter. Works great with some of the older Mark amps. Not bad in the JP-2C. Have not tried it in the TC. For the TC, generally just run the stock tube.
• Thought the 12AX7LPS thinned out the tone a bit. The alternative is the Mullard reissue 12AX7 (long plate) as it is the same tube but selected with better characteristics (more of a fuller tone).

Yea, for me it's a +1 for the 12AT7 PI in the IIC+ HR. It wasn't a huge change but it cleaned up Ch 1, providing a bit more clarity and reduced harshness. It also allowed more elevated Vol 1 settings while retaining the cleaner tone, which leads to more versatility in the lead chan.

 

[jnoel64]

I've still got a handful of JAN/Phillips 12AT7s and I believe I have a Mullard 12AX7 in my stash somewhere. Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[jnoel64]

Depends on the amp in question.

• Some people like the 12AT7 in the phase inverter. Works great with some of the older Mark amps. Not bad in the JP-2C. Have not tried it in the TC. For the TC, generally just run the stock tube.
• Thought the 12AX7LPS thinned out the tone a bit. The alternative is the Mullard reissue 12AX7 (long plate) as it is the same tube but selected with better characteristics (more of a fuller tone).

When I was using my Vai Legacy combo, I replaced all my preamp tubes to the LPS. That was literally my first time experimenting with tubes. My factory tubes were bad from day 1 and I had no idea. I just had little sound or really crappy sound. When I was searching for tubes, something I read at the time encouraged me to buy the Sovteks. Can't recall what that was for the life of me. But, to simply have a functioning amp pleased me to no end. It was years later I heard about using them in the PI slot. I honestly can't say I ever noticed a thinness to the tone, but the Legacy is pretty thick anyway. Maybe it was an "improvement?" Now I wonder if I have one in my Dyne. If not, maybe I should try one? The Electra Dyne is the thickest sounding amp I own, but in a beautiful way.

Just when I think my GAS is over, stuff like this comes along and I start buying more stuff that I have run out of places to store! Granted, tubes take up less room than a 100 watt head, but still...

 

[bandit2013]

You are not alone.
Sure the LPS has a nice sound to it. I also read about the tube and its uses. Just out of the blue, I decided to use the Mullard reissue 12AX7a. They look identical to the Sovteks in all respects. I recall reading about the Mullard reissue, it was stated that they are the select tube from the lot of Sovtek LPS. It was also one of the trick tubes I used in the Mark V90 in V4, V5, V6 but had the LPS in V7. Also experimented with the Mullard CV4004. Similar to the Tung Sol but has more of a scooped midrange tone.

Before I ventured into the unknown of NOS tubes, I was running the Mullard CV4004 in V1 and Mullard reissue in V2 of the RA-100 with the LPS in V7. Then there is the JJ ECC803S which is a long plate version of the ECC83s. Not the same tube as it does have a coiled heater element (not suitable for use in any cathode follower circuit). That tube was also good in the PI position but I admired it more for use with the Reverb (works best of the reverb is serviced by one tube using both triodes for send/return). Helped reduce the overbearing reverb effect to some extent.

Sometimes I feel that tube rolling is in fact a mental illness. Call it TRS (Tube Rolling Syndrome). You can literally hours on end swapping out preamp tubes to find that HGT (Holy Grail Tone). There is no such thing, it is all in your mind. That sort of falls in line with Guitar Gluttony or GAS. Next comes the SAS or Speaker Aquisition Syndrome. All of these are rabbit holes we tend to be subject to lures used by companies to catch you. There is also another sucker lure, called PAS (Pedal Aquisition Syndrome).
We spend more time getting this and that and spending more money to make us sound better. But in fact, the real trick is to spend more time learning how to make yourself sound better without spending money, it is called practice. Takes more time and effort but worth it in the long run.

 

[jnoel64]

In this world of acronyms, you have nailed it Bandit! Even though I was literally laughing out loud, I also agree with you 100%. I love all the tones I get from not only my Mesa amps, but with (shocker) my Kemper as well. But, yes, corporate marketing seems to target our self-created need to "improve" our sound when practicing our technique would be the smarter path.

Decades ago, I recall covers of Guitar Player magazine and others displaying headlines about improving "tone." I felt so stupid that I didn't understand what "tone" meant. I did know, at that time, I did not really like the sound I got out of my amp. I started out with changing the brand of strings I was using (Ernie Ball stainless steel strings), the gauge of strings I was using (.008), and the thickness of picks I was using (thins). Step by step, I started disliking my sound less and less. Then I got into swapping pickups. (see the pattern here?). After that, I moved on to where I should have started: changing my physical approach to my instrument. My right hand needed to be more dynamic than just full-bore slamming the strings.

Over time, I did acquire more amps and outboard gear. I am approaching museum or music store levels now, lol, but I also enjoy the process and the collections I have. But, I could likely have saved a massive amount of money if I just kept the same gear and focused more on practicing. Although, I have no desire to lug around my half stack these days, so I suppose a lot of the downsizing has actually improved the health of my back.

Even now, blissfully happy with my tone, I still find myself behaving like a kid in a candy store. I have talked myself out of a lot of purchases, but now I seem to spend more money and time on small, integral parts of the signal chain, like tubes. I am glad I haven't gotten down to the resistor and other component level, and I likely never will.

EDIT: In hindsight, I am very glad I never purchased a Klon. I DID get some cheap Klones, and wasn't all that impressed. Imagine my disappointment if I dropped $600 - $6K. Pretty sure some will find that blasphemous. The most I've paid for a single pedal was $400 and turned around sold it within a week. At least I'm not holding on to stuff I don't like.

 

[rarebitusa]

Next comes the SAS or Speaker Aquisition Syndrome.

SAS is real... it will lead to studio logistic issues... it also can add conflict to your happy household as others may not see this syndrome as a positive step in ones tone quest.

 

[bandit2013]

Lets not talk about MAS. That is a deeper rabbit hole and extends into more expense. From mixers, cables, snakes, preamps, computer for DAW or old school digital Multi-trackers. What is MAS? Microphone Aquisition Syndrome. This may apply to guitar players, bass players and the like. Ok, now what, sure, buy that Mesa with the IR CAb clone. Who needs a mic. I do. Always looking to capture the real sound I hear only to find it is muffed and sounds nothing like it should. Stay away from Acoustic Drum Sets, it will take you down a different path. Yeah, you can tune drums to a specific note but not an easy thing to comprehend as it is a combination of two different frequencies and overtones. If you must have one, the easy way to explain what it is to your wife, it is exercise equipment.

 

[domct203]

So much truth in this tread LOL. I think I have owned every OD pedal ever made over the years as well as every high gain Mesa amp. Been down the tube rolling rabbit hole so many times I still have dirt under my fingernails. I’ve been playing guitar since my teens, now that I’m in my 50’s there seems to be no slowing down, and I’ve recently bought a bass and electric drum kit. Gotta get that GAS fix

 

[bandit2013]

So much truth in this tread LOL. I think I have owned every OD pedal ever made over the years as well as every high gain Mesa amp. Been down the tube rolling rabbit hole so many times I still have dirt under my fingernails. I’ve been playing guitar since my teens, now that I’m in my 50’s there seems to be no slowing down, and I’ve recently bought a bass and electric drum kit. Gotta get that GAS fix

You are in for it now..... there is no point of return from that decision. That electronic drum kit only leads to bigger things in your life. Once you get into playing the E drums, you find you want more. Something real than simulated. Matters not if the set has the mesh heads or hard rubber. There are many things you cannot do with E Drums that you can do with the real thing. Yeah, I know you can make a cymbal trigger take on a dog bark sound or doorbell if you so desire (assuming the processor has such features). Next will be a budgetary beginner set like this Gretsch Catalina Maple kit.

Then you slip down that slope again to seek out cymbals. Some sound great but may not cut the mustard in a live setting. Now comes the mics. Then trying to figure out how to get everything in the room arranged so there is enough space for other players. Yeah, the bass may linger in the background for a while. Mark Bass JP Player was my 2nd bass amp. The Fender Bumble was not doing so well.

This will work for a year or two until you realize you are missing out on something. If you really like the drums, I may suggest to practice with the E-drums until you think you are prepared to go to the real deal. It will be completely different. You have to work at it more with acoustic drums than using a triggered transducer. The Beginner set, consider a used pro set first. That will save you some money.

I eventually wound up with this. Then added some more cymbals.

Now I have the best seat in the house.

Don't forget to have a few other Snare drums on hand. I have a Ludwig Black Beauty and a Tama Symphonic brass one in storage but do get them out once it a while. I sort of like the deep snare drum I have out but was not included in the drum kt. It started out as a 5 piece shell pack which is now a 9 piece set. Oh but it sounds so good.

The bass will grow on you too. So will your gear. I gave the Mark Bass away for nothing, shipped it to Michigan to the bass player (co-worker who travels but when he is in town we jam ). He finally got the 410 cab hooked up. I had to make room for the rest of the Mesa gear. I like it so far but that could change someday.

Now I have growing pains, getting ready for another.... I can make it fit. Ha. Just when it becomes available in matching trim to the tan cab I will have it. Mark VII. Just waiting to empty my pockets again. Just a note, The tri-amp thing with the 2BADS and one JP2C (pushing both tan cabs) is probably the best sound I have ever heard. May need to get a double neck guitar, part bass and part 6 string to run the amp stack up and bass rig. Not. I would need to grow some more arms and that is not happening. Then again there is thing called a harp guitar. Do I need it? no.

No need to worry about the TC, they are in hiding at the moment. I can make use of them as well If I want more of a Marshall tone as the overall sound. Would I want to lug all this around if I ever played outside of this room, no. But at least the Vertical 212 cabs are easier to manage than the 412 cabs. I can lay them on their side and get two of them in the vehicle as well as two amps and all the other stuff. I can only fit one 412 in the SUV. It will only fit on its backside. Life is just an experiment after all. As long as I have both hands and feet connected to my body, along with the ability to move and think and react with some sort of emotion, I will continue to enjoy it while I can. Trust me, things will grow over time until you get to that point your family members will try to get you into rehabilitation. I am just not there yet.

 

[domct203]

I really suck on the drums LOL, but can hold a basic 4/4 beat. I bought an inexpensive electronic set because I’m more curious than serious about playing drums.

The bass on the other hand…. Once I got used to the string spacing it’s all I play at home now. So far I’m happy with a compressor/limiter, chorus, delay and reverb going direct into a mixer, but I’ve got my eye on the Subway series amps for sure. I didn’t have any trouble adapting to the scale length as I play a long scale Gretch Jet Baritone regularly.

I can see a full bass stack in my future LOL.

Dom

 

[bandit2013]

That was one side step or a trip and fall off topic. Sorry.
If I were to compare two related amps like the RA-100 and TC-100.
I feel the JAN/Phillips brings out some more musical content with the TC-100. This effect was similar with the TC-50 but not as radical as it was with the TC-100.

On the flip side, the RA100 behaves differently. I found the Chinese 12AT7 offered a tighter characteristic to the RA. Since the Hi/Lo preamp is not as compensated as the TC series, it has plenty of than natural sound to it.

An alternate would be the RFT 12AT7 but it will have a warmer tone than the JAN/Phillips 12AT7.

 

[domct203]

Yea, we all went off topic here LOL.

I still have the Mullard CV4024's in the amps, haven't really found a reason to change them to the JAN Philips.

The bass is full without mud, and my baritone guitar is nice and tight even at high volumes.

Dom

[edit] I also favor the Sovtek LPS in the TC-100 PI over the stock Mesa (JJ) one that was there, and have always used one in the PI of the Roadster as well. To me it influences the ‘feel’ of the amp in a way I like.