412 with V30's not so great with Mark V head

[bandit2013]

I tried to post this earlier but got disconnected...

I bought myself a new Mark V head since I already had the Dual Rect. 4x12 cab (used it with my MKIV combo once in a while).
At first, the mkV head sounded awsome through the cab. I kept the volume low and use the 45w setting. I still play through my MKIV (equiped with C90). Prior to getting the Mark V, I installed an EVM12L black label into the MKIV. That was a huge improvement over the C90. One thing to note: the EV and C90 are similar in tone at moderate volue level, but at low settings, the EV in the open back combo seemed a bit bassy. Also, it barely fit, not much clearance between the tubes and speaker frame due to its overall depth and magnet size. I put the C90 back in and was waiting to get more EV speakers to install into the 412 cab.

As for the V30's, it was difficult to adjust the MKV settings to achieve a decent sound that was not ear piercing in the treble frequencies. Had to keep the gain low, channel volume low, no presence setting on any channel. Still sounded terrible. I could only tolerate playing through the amp for a short period. I did have an issue with two preamp tubes that I corrected after replaceing the V30's but that would have only improved the sound quality slightly. As a comparrison, even the Mark IV sounded terrible throught the 412 after getting comfortable with the EVM speaker.

I finally replaced all of the V30's with EVM12l (black label) speakers. I tried just two but that still did not cure the issue (V30's are more sensitive). The Mark V is just amazing when played through a 412 cab equiped with four EVM12L speakers.
Even the Mark I setting on channel 1 sounds good. Perhaps the V30's do not age well since the cabinet was bought some 12 years ago when I got the MKIV. Also, I never played through the 4x12 all that often when I only had the MKIV.

Now I can adjust gain, volume, treble, presence, to any setting without ear piercing results. The clean channel sounds excellent. Channel 2 (all modes are amazing) Channel 3 (Awsome). The EVM12L perform beyond my expectations. Hard to mud the tone unless you push the bass setting. The V30's would break up at a much lower volume, no clarity or definition.
The V30's are similar in construction to the C90. Both are cone vented (dome is fabric, you can see through it with a flashlight). The magnets may appear smaller on the V30 when compared to the C90, but they are thicker and have a stronger magnetic field. The difference lies in the voice coild. V30's I believe are (1" to 1.25") and the C90 is close to 2". As for the EVM, the dome is a solid fiber fabric. Voice coil is vented from the rear. Air pressure is disspersed evenly across the surface of the cone and dome on the EV. They are not as unidirectional as the V30's.

I would have tried other brands of speakers, but since I have past experience with EVM's (mark III combo, BS-EVM12 and EVM12L classic in extension cab) I decided to stay EV.
For those who are interested: The EVM12L Black Label (Zaack Wylde) speakers are verly close in construction to the Mesa Black Shadow EVM12 speakers. The cone suspension has the same stiffness, damping effect and tone response is almost identical. Compare that to the EVM12L Classic that I bought in the early to mid 90's, the cone suspension was a bit softer, not as puchy and response was a bit slower, the difference was notable when compared to the BS EVM12. If you want that Mesa Black Shadow EVM12 sound, get the Zaack Wylde EVM12L black label speakers. I am uncertain if the reissue EVM12L classics are any different from the one I purchased 20 years ago. If I recall, the EVM12L Classic I bought 20 years ago had the 300W rating. The Black Shadow EV was 200W.

 

[jaynthia]

Great post, cant wait anymore to get my EVM12Ls, kinda fed up with V30s...

 

[kdorsey]

The pursuit of your 'grail tone' has to include cab and speakers. And while the V30 seems to be THE most popular speaker for many Mesa amps, they just don't work for some of us. Sometimes I've had C90s do the job. Sometimes it was the EV12Ls or a combination of the two. Other times I jumped over to WGS speakers with great success. It just takes time and patience. Thanks for sharing your results and congrats on getting closer to your grail tone. 8)

 

[ryjan]

And the Eminence Delta Pro 12A is supposedly the "poor man's" EVM's.

 

[masque]

bandit your post blows my mind......perhaps your ears just tune in better to the EV's and that is great if that works for you....but to me the Mark V sounds freaking fantastic with the V 30's.....in fact, I have heard very few amps that didnt sound great with the V 30's.

i think there are lots of great speakers out there including the EV's and the V 30's. i've never understood what it is that people are hearing when things happen like what you described.

very rarely do things like that happen to me or those I know.....for example,

I have been around or owned amps with

GT 75's
V 30's
25 watt greenbacks
alnico blues
jensens
sheffields

etcc etccc etccc

i am able to certainly prefer some of those over others for my style and preference but rarely do I hear these well known speakers and think they just arent any good or "not so great".....i guess that is the glorious thing about music and tone.....it is the ultimate example of subjectivity.

 

[farren]

Speakers are a very subjective thing. I love my Mark V head with my Stiletto (AKA Traditional Rectifier) 4x12 with V30s. A lot of it's just what you're used to, as well. I've made home theater and car stereo speaker upgrades before where I seriously consider going back to what I had before the upgrade for days afterward. Then my ears adapt and I'm convinced the newer speakers are better.

Perhaps I could agree that V30s are too harsh at high volumes, but honestly, I wouldn't know as I only crank my amp when I'm wearing earplugs and the V30s sound phenomenal then. At shows I find stage volume of any speaker harsh when I'm in the front row

 

[bandit2013]

I may have some bias towards EV ever since I had a mark III. That was and still is an awsome amp. I sold it to a freind at work who bought it for his son for a Christmas present.

I would agree, speakers are the final tone adjustment. My desire was for something a bit neutral and not so tone defining.
I am sure there are other speakers out there that would be great options. I did try just two of the EVM with two V30's, All I could hear were the V30's due to their higher sensitivity. Perhaps the vintage sound is not for me.

A brief history if I did not mention it. The Mesa Cab was purchased new the same day I bought the Mark IV in 2000. It sounded great from the start. I did try the Mark IV though an EVM12L classic extension cab that I had paired with the Mark III. I actually liked the C90 better and never wanted to make any changes to the MKIV. Since I sold the MKIII (blue stripe if anybody was wondering) in October 2012. As I do with my guitars, I do the same with my amps, they get played every time I practice. After owning the Mark IV for 12 years, it was time for new tubes. Definately made a difference in tone quality. When my wife was in the hospital for an extended period of time, I decided to make a change and get the Zaack Wylde EVM12L. It did not fit into the combo, very cramped. Sounded awsome by the way.

It was not until I got the Mark V when I was able to make full use of the 412 ( which stayed dormant for almost 12 years, I plugged in every once in a while but never long enough to form a like or dislike opinion). The Mark V sounded awsome for the first week, it was not until after getting used to all of the channels I discovered I could not dial the amp in. Way too much treble even with the treble turned all the way off. Turns out one of the power tubes was sick and finally decided to burn through the plate. New tubes will be on the way, and thanks to this site, I now have some direction.

What I dislike about the V30's, they are directional. If you move off to the side all you hear is the bass, in front of the cab you get everthing but you also find that beam of higher frequencies. The V30's break up early in the mid to low power settings, when driven beyond this point it is mud, no definition. Loudness or volume would be comparable to Mark IV set to 3 on the master volume. Had the same results with both MKV and MKIV through the cab. It was a love/hate relationship with the V30's. They sound great at low power settings and if you are far enough away from the speaker but not off to the side. As for the EVM12LZW, the sound quality is uniform, lows, mids, highs are equalized off to the side, in front, or even behind the cabinet. I can still turn them to mud if pushed to the point you cannot stand being in the room with it but now I can make use of the gain on channel 3. Before I could not adjust it beyond 9:00 without killing my ears ( almost like getting your teeth drilled out). However, at low to mid volume, the V30's sound the best.

I still have all the tags on the cabinet. Model 4FBB-R-S2, sn 29766.

 

[bandit2013]

Just to note: there is a different tone quality difference between V30, C90 and the EVM. That is not the problem or issue I have with the Celestions. I can get similar tones out of the EVM depending on what guitar I play and which channel I am using. The main issue is the beam effect from Celection speakers. The V30 has a narrow beam of high frequencies due to the smaller voice coil and cone shape. The C90 is a bit more spread out. Cone shape is different and voice coil appears larger. Where as the EVM is more uniform. You hear basically the same sound directly in front as you hear off to the side.
I could have fixed the beaming with diffusers, however, that is just one more thing that would end up vibrating. Its bad enough hearing the walls, furniture, pictures, etc... buzzing from the sound waves. I did not notice the beam effect in the old home I used to live in. Plaster walls and hard wood floors, no sound absorbtion what so ever. The rooms were like echo boxes. Now in a more modern home with thin drywall. Sound gets absorbed almost completely. Might as well be outside.

C90 is the best fit for the MKIV combo. the EVM was great, but did not allow for clearance to remove tubes. I did consider getting C90's as replacements for the V30's but decided to go the EVM route.

 

[bandit2013]

:shock: With the right power tubes I can bring down the house with the EVM12L's. I recently installed GT labeled SED WC's. No breakup, full punch in the face power. I do not think the old V30's would have been able to take it. Very tight bass resonse when really saturated.

Also, part of the high treble was related to the original power tubes. The other part due to Celestion design. V30's are great speakers, but I prefer EV's. Wonder how other brands would sound, I was considering Emminance because of cost and they make one that has similar tone. Considering tone, the EV and V30's are similar to some degree, but very different how well the frequencies are dispursed or spread out from the cone. With the V30's you can easily walk into and out of the high frequency pressure waves, it is almost like a garden hose shooting a stream of water. Wtih the EV's you cannot evade or find separation from bass to highs. I will probably go deaf before I am 50, which is not too far off. I can't believe I am even that old.

 

[guitarp77]

Great post, but I have to say that for me V30's have really been perfect...they sound awesome to my ears and have been super pleased with them!

To each its own. Thats why there are so many options in the market

 

[MesaGod666]

Um...I can't imagine playing my Mesa gear through anything other than a Mesa 4x12 cab loaded with V30's.

 

[jb's 52]

I'll have to agree to a certain extent, V30s sound harsh and it gives me "ear fatigue"
if I have it plugged in at home and I'm just playing guitar alone.

But with the band that ****'s gold! To me, V30s have the right amount of treble
and midrange that helps cut through and brings out the "woodiness" of my guitars.

I haven't used a 412 since the 80's but if I did, I'd do half V30s and the other two
C90s.

 

[bandit2013]

I am not trying to sell a bias on EVM's. The V30 did have a great sound at low volume. The only thing that changed was I added a Mark V head to the cabinet. Now I spend more time in front of the cabinet than I would if running the MKIV through it. Unfortunately I just could not get a happy medium with the MKV and the V30's. Certain notes when played on the guitar caused speakers to saturate as if the resonant frequency drop to second E octave on the low E string. That occured on all channels. It was not just associated with the V, since I could also get the same response with the IV. Most of the time I play at moderate levels. I took a considerable amount of time before deciding to replace the V30's. Some days they sounded great, other days they just did not seem up to par for a Mesa. In the combo, the C90 is perfect. I had considered stuffing those in the cab, but I always had a longing for an EVM cab (this is due to my exposure with the MKIII and the extension 1x12 cab I had with it, both speakers were EVM's ;one black shadow, and the other EV classic, and I could not get those to flub at a moderate volume output or even at a band setting - used to be in a band for almost 2 years but college got in the way.)

Perhaps a personal choice, if you are happy with the V30, stay with them. They sounded great until I hooked up the Mark V. After that they just did not sound all that great. I probably blew out one or two of the drivers on one side of the cab. So either way I was going to replace them...

 

[screamingdaisy]

I'm a big fan of V30s but I also like that people have differing tastes. Makes the world more interesting.

 

[cradlefish]

I dig the v30's and never had a problem with them at rehearsals or live. They've always been able to sound great and cut through the mix.

I actually prefer it over the WGS Veteran 30. Yes, the V30 may have a spiky midrange, but it's frequencies are balanced off with another speaker I have with it, the WGS ET65. Also, when you play live the spikiness really helps dealing with other loud instruments.

 

[ricorocks]

try putting a quad of EL 34's, then see what you think of mark V combined with El34 and V30's. it's a win win situation. that's what the pro's use . PERIOD... :wink:

 

[ricorocks]

Forgot to add maybe you're speakers need to break in. give them time. you wil love V30's. i do

 

[bandit2013]

I bought the cab at the same time I bought the Mark IV, in 2000. The speakers were well broken in. I did not care much for them when I got the cab, same applied to the C90. It just did not compare to the Mark III with its EV black shadow and the EVM12L classic extension cab (since I built it I know what speaker was in it). I did give plenty of time and use for the speakers to break in. I would say there was a good 5 years of use before I injured my left hand and ripped tendon in the left elbow (which sort of put an end to my playing for nearly 8 years).

I bought the Mark V so I could get more use out of the 412 cab. There was something not right with the speakers since I would red plate the power tubes when I was playing through the V30's Not sure if there is a correlation to the Mark V and the old V30. Original tubes shot within 2 months of use. Replaced tubes, less than 2 weeks. Rebuilt half the cab with EVM12L and ran 4 ohm load no issues, swapped to the other half with V30 red plate in 20 minutes. I have been running the cab with all EVM and no issues to date. It may have been bad tubes, but one set were known to be good since they came from the Mark IV.

When the amp was not red plating with the V30, it did not sound all that great. I did not care much for the beaming effect due to cone design.

In all honesty, the EVM sound very much the same but do not beam the high's like the V30's. The only notable difference with the EVM, I can really drive the EV's much harder without flubbing or resonating at a certain note which sounded like a small car horn.

I still have the V30 speakers. I am planning on running a frequency sweep at moderate power to verify the speakers are not intermittently opening. What comes to mind is the 8 ohm jack on the cab since it connects the two parallel loads in series, if the contact is not firm enough, vibrations from the speakers could cause intermittent open circuit to the amp. That would result in HV on the plates but not the high current. The static impedance checks out okay, but need to determine the dynamic impedance (speaker cone must be moving from applied signal). I have not ruled out a poor solder joint on the speakers but it is too late for that since they were removed.

 

[bandit2013]

I am not indicating that the V30's are bad in general, I just had problems with mine and the only solution to correct the issues was to replace them. Of course I had a bias for EVM which grew from the Mark III ownership.

When comparing EVM12L to the C90 in an open back combo, the C90 sounded better at low to moderate volume levels. However when pushing the envelope to band level, the EVM12L did not disappoint where as the C90 would break up or flub due to increase in bass signal. That was the reason why I bought the 412 in the first place. Even the V30's that were in the Mesa cab did not perform well at higher volume settings (they sounded like they had blown voice coils). So whatever happened to them over the 13 years, 8 years in storage, is unknown.

For those of you that have great success with the V30's that is great. I believe the V30's are well built, the one's I had just did not perform as well as I expected them too. For now I am happy with the EVM's. Perhaps when I get another half stack (V30's seem hard to avoid since every MFG uses them) I may form a different opinion.

 

[ricorocks]

well good luck to you man... :wink: