Will high gain 12AX7s cause clean channel to break up?

[farren]

Obvious answer: Lower the gain to compensate for higher gain tubes?

I'm going to do a complete pre-amp re-tube on my Mark V soon, basically Doug's cocktail. Why? Why not. I love the way the amp sounds as-is but think a high gain JJ in V2 will help bring Crunch alive at bedroom volumes a little better and perhaps ditching the JJs in V3-V6 will reduce the shrill "screech" I sometimes get when muting with my left hand while using Channel 3 (not a technique issue--I've never experienced this on other amps.) After reading a bit, I figured I may as well just change all the 12AX7s. I've had 3 stock pre-amp tubes die in the ~2 years I've had the amp and at this rate I'd probably be back in the market for replacements soon anyway...

So as the topic says, if I replace my stock tubes with high-gain Tung Sol, JJ, 4 Pentas and a Sovtek (in that order), should I be concerned that I'll get unwanted break-up on the Clean channel, specifically using Fat? If so, will it be as simple as backing off the gain a bit, or would that be in some way a sacrifice to my clean tone?

I admit I've had a little more break-up trouble on the Clean channel (fat) than most seem to get which confuses me a bit... The highest I can run gain and master for that channel at 90w without experiencing any break-up using medium-output pickups is about 10:30 and 10:30 respectively while using a rather conservative 11:00 preset EQ.

 

[mesa metal]

did you get the dougs cocktail yet?wondering what the gain readings are for the pentas..
doug has great tubes and great service too....iv had my mk5 combo since dec.
on my 4th tube roll......my current setup is
V1--mullard(110/110)
V2--JJ high gain(115/116)
V3--tung sol(110/110)
V4--mullard(115/115)
V5--tung sol(110/110)
V6--jj high gain(115/115)
V7--sovtek lps(115/115)
so far im pretty happy with this setup,but this weekend im going to put a tung sol high gain in
V1 and a slightly lower gain gain sovtek lps in V7..
i get that exact same "screech" in channel 3 so i lowered the gain control a bit and some eq settings..
the screech is not as bad now....i have a totally killer sound now from channel 3..
as for the clean channel to answer your question...i use tweed mode and have my gain set at about 9oclock
and sounds really good....i dont like distorted clean at all........so it too depends on your guitar wood and pickups...
channel 2 sounds great as well at bedroom level with that jj in there
higher gain tubes ar good but some tweaking is nessary......last week i put a high gain mullard(120/120) in channel 2
and i found it was a bit flubby sounding,,,,tried it in a few other spots and was way too much gain..
every time i swap tubes i write it down and make some notes ...
curious to see how the dougs cocktail works for you.......let us know

 

[farren]

Lots of good info, thanks for that... It's good to see someone else experiences the "screech," so I'll have to work on lessening it once I get the new tubes. I'm thinking my high 6600 hz slider is largely to blame... It's a little Petrucci-esque and considering my main axe's bridge pickup is a punchy Evolution, I should probably back off on that slider a bit.

I haven't ordered the tube cocktail yet but intend to before I sleep tonight. I've just sort of been waffling between standard and high gain tubes. I think I'll just go with high gain if it isn't going to ruin my clean channel and then tweak gain knobs from there. Most of my pickups are 280 - 400ish mA, so nothing too terribly hot, excluding my death metal guitar, a classic American Kramer with an X2N in it If any of these tubes are too hot in their predestined valves, I'll order a couple mid-gain Tung Sols to roll around till I'm happy. I think this cocktail should get me very close to where I want to be, though. Believe it or not, before I'd ever heard of Doug's cocktail, I'd already decided on what tube to put in every valve of my Mark, and my planned cocktail was exactly the same as his except for the V3 slot. Good sign maybe?

Can tube gain be tested with a DMM? I'm afraid that's the extent of my analytical equipment so I probably won't be able to say what kind of gain the tubes coming from Doug are. I'm going to order them with the high gain option, though. I look forward to posting the results :>

 

[mesa metal]

when you get the tubes from doug the gain numbers will be written on the box..
im currently using tone zone pickups i think they are rated at 375 output(through a jackson sl2 mah)
i know the X2N is still the hottest they make at 510output..can always adjust the gain on the amp to find the sweetspot.you can move tubes around to
to see what sounds good to you...im on my fifth tube swap...i listen to the tubes for awhile in the clean channel to get a feel how they sound...then i go for channel 3....im finding out that less is more with this amp,,i got some really evil crunch coming out and is awesome sounding...
still somewhat screechy...
i been playing through a 2:90 triaxis rig for a really long time and sorta expected to sound similar but not the case at all......and never screechy!!!
the mark V is a very unique sound all to itself...
do you have the combo as well?
will be looking forward to your results.....
keep rockin!

 

[farren]

Ahh ok, I'll report the numbers when I get them.

Tone Zone in the neck Michael Romeo style? I did a similar kind of thing in one of my guitars (when Romeo was still using EMGs in his old ESP)... Wanted something Air Nortonish in the neck but hotter so I stuck a plain Norton in it. Great lead tone from that pickup in the neck position though it's prescribed for the bridge.

My Mark V is a head I run through a 4x12 straight Stiletto (FMA Traditional Rectifier) cab, then I have a few pedals and a G-Major 2 for relay switching. Honestly, it's hard to imagine improving on it as it's the amp I've always wanted since I was a kid (though it was the Mark IV on the market back then), but these tubes just might pull it off. With the different mode options, I'm pretty sure this amp will satisfy my tonal needs for a long time, even as over the years I've consistently decreased gain--at a very slow rate, maybe 1-2% per year It's kinda funny though, as a kid I wanted a Mark to get a Metallica tone and now that I have an amp that can reproduce the '80s Metallica tone quite well (with a little help from a parametric EQ), it's the last thing I want to sound like...

Gotta say I'm a little disappointed my order didn't ship today... Doug's FAQ says he ships same business day and I certainly ordered early enough to get same-day shipping: 1 AM. Oh well, it's USPS Priority so it will still be quick once he gets around to shipping it.

 

[mesa metal]

not sure what state youre in but when doug ships my tubes i get them in a day and a half or two days depending if it is the weekend or not..
they get there pretty quick..
i have the oversize 4x12 straight/slant cab and have not yet hooked the mkv into it(dont know what im waiting for)
just been using the combo speaker with a g major in the effect loop sometimes..(going to get a strymon timeline to put in front without the effects loop and maybe some other pedals )
im mulling over getting a 2x12 recto cab or the 2x12 roadster compact.. trying to keep the 2:90 rig and the mkV separate so i have two totaly
different setups..im really digging the mkV in the two months ive had it now and not done tweaking,,early metallica tones are great on this amp as well
as the triaxis rig...
funny you should mention reducing gain over the years i also have been doing that too and still maintaining that heavy crushing tone..
my musical tastes change often and this amp can do it all..one day ill be listening to dream theater and the next some death metal to instrumental stuff..
..im sure you will be happy with the new tubes so keep us posted!!!

 

[farren]

A lot of those taste changes also come with increased instrument proficiency I find... Which tells you how stagnant my development as a guitarist has been the last 12+ years since I listen to mostly the same genres (progressive metal, death metal, fusion...) Just with more "mature" gain tastes hehe...

You're insane for not playing through that cab with your Mark by now. I just don't think a C90 and open-back cab could do it justice.

 

[kdorsey]

In short, the answer to your question is no, it depends. But the setting of Volume will be more dramatic, obviously. So if you're shooting for the same crunch (or lack thereof) that you had with the lower gain tube, then you'll have to turn V1 down. The difference, for example, between a new Tung Sol and a NOS RCA xxx is pretty great. The Tung Sol is quite louder. Leaving your volume the same, try it out. With the Tung Sol in V1 and NOS RFT in V3, I have zero screeching...quite the opposite. And I don't strive for Metallica anything.

 

[mesa metal]

@kdorsey i havent actually listened to metallica in over 20 years but some people still like the tone they used to have waaayyyy back when!!
and the discussion has nothing to do with them at all,and none of us mentioned striving for any metallika anything,merely an example of the tones we all can acheive using the mkv..(maybe i should have used ac/dc ) i have my own taste and my own tone that dosent sound like anyone else at all
farren youre right about the c90 does not do it justice..i also certainly agree about years of proficiency comes with different tastes..yesterday i was listening to tony macalpine most of the day and thismorning i was listening to a band called swallow the sun and opeth...
we have this forum to see what others are using (preamp tubewise)and all opinions and experience are greately taken into account
im going to try the rft in v3 to see what the change sounds like cause that tube is a lowergain tube and may sound pretty good,,,

giving the 4x12 a run through today :twisted:

 

[farren]

I was just playing some Moonlapse Vertigo (Opeth) earlier on my rig... One tone I can't get near with this amp is that Laney distortion they use (not sure if they still play Laneys as I'm just into their older stuff), but honestly, not sure I'd want to get near that tone anyway

 

[mesa metal]

ahh yes one of my faves.i like the end part on face of melinda .pretty sure they still using them but couldnt tell from the last album they put out
into the old stuff as well...im sure with a little tweaking you can get close maybe on channel 2...
plus they are using PRS with seymor duncans,,,they do have a great tone when they play the heavy riffs.
im liking my brutal tone lately... :twisted:
didnt have time to play through the 4x12 but will this week sometime
no tubes yet???

 

[farren]

Yeah I was thinking Crunch mode with high gain and an inordinately high master is probably the best bet for that Opeth sound... But I like my sound more than theirs anyway Gotta admit though when I saw them the first time in 2003 they had the best live tone I'd ever heard at the time--it was a club with great sound, though. After that show my friend went out and bought a VH100R to try to sound like Opeth. I don't know why but his amp always sounded like complete garbage using the high-gain channel, even cranked at live shows... I never got to mess with it much so he probably just failed to dial it in right.

No tubes yet... I emailed Doug this afternoon asking why they still hadn't shipped and 15 minutes later no reply but an email indicating a tracking number had finally been created and it just entered the postal system tonight. My order status still says "Processing" on his site so I'm thinking maybe there are just issues with his system right now.

Oh well, I feel like a kid the week before Christmas, so it's not so bad prolonging the wait I'm thinking Wednesday, or Thursday at the very latest. I shall be ready...

 

[kdorsey]

@kdorsey i havent actually listened to metallica in over 20 years but some people still like the tone they used to have waaayyyy back when!! and the discussion has nothing to do with them at all,and none of us mentioned striving for any metallika anything,merely an example of the tones we all can acheive using the mkv..(maybe i should have used ac/dc )

I think you took my comment out of context. I wan't ragging on striving for a Metallica tone, but that my experiments did not seek out a Metallica tone. That's all. (many times around here, it's assumed that every Mark player strives for MOP tone) Since certain Diezel amps exclusively use NOS RFT tubes (as I understand), one might think that the use of NOS RFTs might insinuate that I pursued that signature tone, but I didn't. It was the unusual combination of preamp tubes that worked for me...and that was my message. No harshness intended. 8)

 

[mesa metal]

Yeah I was thinking Crunch mode with high gain and an inordinately high master is probably the best bet for that Opeth sound... But I like my sound more than theirs anyway Gotta admit though when I saw them the first time in 2003 they had the best live tone I'd ever heard at the time--it was a club with great sound, though. After that show my friend went out and bought a VH100R to try to sound like Opeth. I don't know why but his amp always sounded like complete garbage using the high-gain channel, even cranked at live shows... I never got to mess with it much so he probably just failed to dial it in right.

No tubes yet... I emailed Doug this afternoon asking why they still hadn't shipped and 15 minutes later no reply but an email indicating a tracking number had finally been created and it just entered the postal system tonight. My order status still says "Processing" on his site so I'm thinking maybe there are just issues with his system right now.

Oh well, I feel like a kid the week before Christmas, so it's not so bad prolonging the wait I'm thinking Wednesday, or Thursday at the very latest. I shall be ready...

dont worry once they go out from doug they will get there pretty fast..
and i definately love my sound better that theirs as well...but i gotta get this amp hooked up to the recto cab
and give my 2 cents how the v30s sound.. :!:

 

[mesa metal]

@kdorsey i havent actually listened to metallica in over 20 years but some people still like the tone they used to have waaayyyy back when!! and the discussion has nothing to do with them at all,and none of us mentioned striving for any metallika anything,merely an example of the tones we all can acheive using the mkv..(maybe i should have used ac/dc )

I think you took my comment out of context. I wan't ragging on striving for a Metallica tone, but that my experiments did not seek out a Metallica tone. That's all. (many times around here, it's assumed that every Mark player strives for MOP tone) Since certain Diezel amps exclusively use NOS RFT tubes (as I understand), one might think that the use of NOS RFTs might insinuate that I pursued that signature tone, but I didn't. It was the unusual combination of preamp tubes that worked for me...and that was my message. No harshness intended. 8)

you definately have some good points here......no harshness taken at all my apologies for maybe takin out of context
im actually going to get a rft tube to see how it will sound for my amp....so far though i seem to like my current tube configuration
but the mullard in V1 may be a tad too bright so im going to put the tung sol back in that spot to give a really good comparative listen to how the tubes sound....experimenting with tube rolling in these amps is really cool........over many months playing with the triaxis i have about 32 different
changes of all kinds of tubes and made notes on every one,,,,,the config i have in there now my ears think it sounds the best.....
cheers you guys!!!

 

[farren]

dont worry once they go out from doug they will get there pretty fast..
and i definately love my sound better that theirs as well...but i gotta get this amp hooked up to the recto cab
and give my 2 cents how the v30s sound.. :!:

Laneys have that chimey, brutal presence when heavily distorted. I like it on Opeth's records but I can't help but think "wow, standing in front of this would cause some serious eardrum fatigue"...

Doug was out of JJ ECC83s and just got a new shipment in yesterday, so that was the reason for the delay. Worth waiting for

 

[farren]

Got my tubes from Doug... Not sure I'll have time to try 'em today but should tomorrow. Here's what I got:

V1 - Tung 12AX7 100/110
V2 - High Gain JJ ECC83 115/115
V3 - Ruby 12AX7AC7 High Grade 110/115
V4 - Penta 12AX7 105/110
V5 - Penta 12AX7 110/105
V6 - Penta 12AX7 110/100
V7 - Sovtek 12AX7 LPS 100/100

I ordered with the high gain option. I'm not sure how much it varies among tubes, though. What is normal gain, 90-100?

Update: Well, what can I say? A little more perfection. As playable as it was at even very low volumes, it's even more so now. High gain didn't hurt the clean channel at all. If anything there's an overall boost in clarity. I'll have to try it out cranked tomorrow, but it sounds great.

 

[mesa metal]

thanks for posting the gain numbers with the tubes...i bet that amp sounds great now..i was curious to see what the pentas came in at....i have a few but they are lower gain than the set you just got from doug (100/105)i bought them a few years ago to use for phase inverter for my 50/50 head...so i may try them in the mkV..
yes normal gain for a 12AX7 is in the 90s....
i have a JJ 115/116 in V2 as well and sounds really good.....all the mullards and tungsols and sovteks i have are in the
110/110 or 115/115 range so i would like to get some in the lower normal range.. the sovtek i have in V7 at the moment is at 115/115 balanced
and usually when i order from doug i get all my tubes with the balanced option so i can use any one of them for phase inverter..
but i do like the sovtek the best so far........going to put the tungsol back in the V1 spot this weekend..
a few weeks ago i ordered a mullard high gain balanced and the gain was at 120/120 way tooo much for the mark V
so i sold it to my friend and we put it in his triaxis in V1 and it sounded fantastic...
i knew also the new tubes wouldnt hurt the clean channel,,there is a definate boost and a very nice feel to the overall sound ...
many many years ago i had a laney head and cab but it never sounded anything close to opeth,,i wasnt even listening to opeth yet at that point''
didnt have it very long i have to say..eardrum fatigue is probably and understatement
so let us know how you amp sounds after a little tweaking at cranked level
:evil:
i went back and added the gain numbers to my post of the tubes i have in there now
im thinking the tubes you just got sound really good......
"did they tame the squealing at all"

 

[farren]

Looks like Doug probably rounds to the nearest 5 for gain ratings. Had more time to play with these tubes now. Surprisingly the most apparent difference is with the clean channel. It really comes to life with these tubes and I didn't have to tweak gain (which was just under break-up before) at all to keep it from breaking up surprisingly. I did roll off gain, treble, and 6600 hz on the other two channels to compensate for the increased gain and brightness (which is probably a side effect of increased gain) of the new tubes. It's a pretty significant difference on all three channels, though, obviously.

I've been weening off the 6600 hz slider for a week now though which I've noticed has tamed the squealing some. I still have a little but I think it's a product of a trebly bridge pickup in conjunction with a high 6600 hz slider more than anything else. I've never experienced it on my Air Norton 7/Liquifire 7, just the Evo 7.

 

[mesa metal]

unless you get all balanced tubes,doug does round off to the nearest 5 on the tubes.he gets them really close..glad ur happy so far with channel 1 i noticed that also immediately how wonderful it sounded.after the first tube swap..i have the gain set at almost 9 oclock.treble and mids are at about 12.
i still have a little squeal wich is actually some feedback so im backing off the gain alittle and treble and i have the 6600 slider between the mid line and the top making slight adjustments as im playing to dial it in a bit..haveing quite a bit of fun doing all this tweaking,,im also really impressed on how sensitive this amp is to very subtle changes with the knobs.
as the tubes break in a bit you will notice how much better the amp will begin to sound
next week im going to order some tubes similar to the gain ratings you just got and try them out...less is more with this baby!!!
not sure you saw this but this dude has a great tone..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XxPKrt5i-M
very cool

Looks like Doug probably rounds to the nearest 5 for gain ratings. Had more time to play with these tubes now. Surprisingly the most apparent difference is with the clean channel. It really comes to life with these tubes and I didn't have to tweak gain (which was just under break-up before) at all to keep it from breaking up surprisingly. I did roll off gain, treble, and 6600 hz on the other two channels to compensate for the increased gain and brightness (which is probably a side effect of increased gain) of the new tubes. It's a pretty significant difference on all three channels, though, obviously.

I've been weening off the 6600 hz slider for a week now though which I've noticed has tamed the squealing some. I still have a little but I think it's a product of a trebly bridge pickup in conjunction with a high 6600 hz slider more than anything else. I've never experienced it on my Air Norton 7/Liquifire 7, just the Evo 7.