Will high gain 12AX7s cause clean channel to break up?

[farren]

Gain aside my channel 1 doesn't look terribly different than my channel 3. I've got gain and presence on channel 1 around 11:00, treble at 1:00, mids at 9:00, bass at 10:00 and lately I've been experimenting with preset EQ around 11:00 as my manual EQ setting for Crunch/Mark IV is just too much bass for the Fat clean channel. My channel 3 settings are pretty close to Ola's (great tone on that video, especially for rhythm stuff) but I use a little less gain and my 6600 hz slider is still up there half-way between the middle line and top. What can I say, I like the piercing tone, especially when paired with a fat neck pickup for leads. What little playing I've done with Extreme mode I've used similar EQ to his, though, since you just have to back off the presence and high frequencies with the insane highs of Extreme. I may explore it more some day, but as it is I'm totally content with Mark IV mode and the occasional IIC+ when I'm not too lazy to switch to triode

 

[mesa metal]

Gain aside my channel 1 doesn't look terribly different than my channel 3. I've got gain and presence on channel 1 around 11:00, treble at 1:00, mids at 9:00, bass at 10:00 and lately I've been experimenting with preset EQ around 11:00 as my manual EQ setting for Crunch/Mark IV is just too much bass for the Fat clean channel. My channel 3 settings are pretty close to Ola's (great tone on that video, especially for rhythm stuff) but I use a little less gain and my 6600 hz slider is still up there half-way between the middle line and top. What can I say, I like the piercing tone, especially when paired with a fat neck pickup for leads. What little playing I've done with Extreme mode I've used similar EQ to his, though, since you just have to back off the presence and high frequencies with the insane highs of Extreme. I may explore it more some day, but as it is I'm totally content with Mark IV mode and the occasional IIC+ when I'm not too lazy to switch to triode

very interesting that we both want that same "feel"when it comes to our sound..love the brutal tone im getting lately..i been using the tweed mode channel 1 mostly for the full and rounded sound...i kinda like it a little bassy without any flubbyness of course
when im in the super heavy mood i really like the thundering tone im getting with the extreme mode.(starting to like it more lately)..i back off the bass slider a bit and lower the gain and treble slightly and im good to go!!! the gain and treble knobs go hand in hand with each other and work really well...and the presence give it that little extra tweak
so now im deciding on a vertical or horizontal 2x12 to go with the combo...... leaning towards the vertical at the moment...
great thread so far,,learning quite a bit about this amp.....big difference from the 2:90 rig

 

[farren]

I don't think I've used Tweed at all yet... I always plan on it but then I start playing and enjoy all my channels how they are and forget about it So Tweed with very low gain around 9 o'clock doesn't break up at all?

It presents a volume problem relative to the other channels, but I really like the clean channel at 45w with tube rectification, by the way. I love the looseness it provides, just sounds more organic and natural to me.

When it comes to channel 3 we may have had similar starting points... I admit it, when I got my Mark V one of the first things I did was hit JP's site and mimic his Mark IV mode settings for a starting point My tone is quite different but that's because I don't have to share the sonic landscape with band members who might not like me dominating all frequencies of the mix I'm finally done fixing up my evil death metal guitar in D with the X2N so I'm going to try to dial in some good settings in Extreme mode at last.

Sounds like you tried your Mark V through your 4x12 finally since you're thinking about a new cab?

 

[mesa metal]

I don't think I've used Tweed at all yet... I always plan on it but then I start playing and enjoy all my channels how they are and forget about it So Tweed with very low gain around 9 o'clock doesn't break up at all?

It presents a volume problem relative to the other channels, but I really like the clean channel at 45w with tube rectification, by the way. I love the looseness it provides, just sounds more organic and natural to me.

When it comes to channel 3 we may have had similar starting points... I admit it, when I got my Mark V one of the first things I did was hit JP's site and mimic his Mark IV mode settings for a starting point My tone is quite different but that's because I don't have to share the sonic landscape with band members who might not like me dominating all frequencies of the mix I'm finally done fixing up my evil death metal guitar in D with the X2N so I'm going to try to dial in some good settings in Extreme mode at last.

Sounds like you tried your Mark V through your 4x12 finally since you're thinking about a new cab?

yes i did and is freakin incredible,,,, and i did have to turn up the volume on channel 1 tweed a little to balance out volumes across the board....did not use the effects loop whatsoever this time to try out the 4x12...
tweed starts to break up ever so slightly at 9oclock gain,but sounds really good and full and the boost in volume on that mode helps too..
channel 3 i played the mkiv mode and lowered the treble and gain and did the ola eq settings but moving the 6600 slider between the mid line and the top again..also put the presence to 12oclock.....the V30s in the cab really move some air and sounds amazing....gobs of crushing tone.....keep in mind im playing through a jackson SL2MAH neckthru with a dimarzio tonezone in the bridge....
mark iic mode is just as exciting as mkiv with only a slight volume drop and a very tighter feel..didnt change any settings..
so to get to my point im going with a 2x12 vertical recto cab,,,,i think it will sound as "big" but without the massive volume,(i stated this in a previous post)
i have a lightning sky jackson that is tuned to D also with a d-sonic pickup in that going to give that a try too
should sound pretty brutal :twisted:
your X2N should sound brutaly evil in extreme mode for sure
keep us posted
do you get a hissing noise in channel 1 and 3 when the volume on the guitar is turned down?
maybe i just notice it more with the big cab,,,channel2 does not seem to hiss at all...

 

[farren]

Sound like some nice guitars... What should be my worst guitars are my best playing and sounding (due to hardware/electronics upgrades and fretwork I've done) and what should be my best guitar is a completely unplayable warped piece of **** defective Carvin neck-thru Yeah, there's a little bitterness there...

I checked out Tweed finally. It's a lot fatter than I expected, very nice. The X2N guitar sounds ridiculous through this rig, in fact I think I'll change the pickup over to an Evo2 in the near future... It's just too brutal for the kind of stuff, mostly prog metal, that I like to play these days I can't justify basically having a Chuck Schuldiner tribute guitar when I don't play much of that stuff anymore (though I still listen.)

But yeah I get the hiss on Tweed, basically the same hiss on Crunch (I keep it dimed or nearly so, mind you), and considerably more hiss on channel 3. From what I've read before this is totally normal for the Mark V. For whatever reason, probably the fact that we basically have launch versions of the amp, Mark IVs are quieter than Mark Vs in Mark IV mode. That's what I've heard from others and what I was told by a Mesa tech when we were trying to diagnose a tube issue over the phone a few years back. I think with revisions the Mark V may get quieter... It's not too bad for me, though. I don't notice when I have it cranked and play with earplugs. I guess it's the price we pay for having mid-sized heads/combos with a ridiculous amount of preamp goodness inside.

 

[mesa metal]

yea i like the jacksons they play really well for me at least...i can set them up however i want and they never go out of tune...
my worst is a old charvel but the action is just like butter....

tweed mode is really cool i like the low end it has..glad to hear the hiss is pretty much normal for the most part
and yes it is preamp goodness......oh by the way i just scored from ebay a 2x12 recto horizontal cab..should be here wed..
cant wait to crank that baby up...i was also going through some of my tubes and found some old mesa str-12AX7-A preamp tubes
they were used in my 2:90 for the phase inverters but i have no idea what make they are but look an 803 cause they have long smooth plates
thinking of using them in the V...i have no idea how to post a pic so maybe someone can tell me what they are.i would start a new thread for this..

 

[farren]

Hmm you have me thinking about my early-mid 90s MIJ Jackson... It's "dead" right now, has been for 12 or 13 years--the Jackson low-profile licensed Floyd's posts stripped right out of the body, but I could possibly resurrect it. MIJ Jacksons were generally decent guitars. Think I'll check out the neck and see if it's straight enough to be worth an overhaul with an OFR conversion sometime.

Nice, it will kill with that cab I bet you could get those tubes identified here in the Tubes subforum... Just upload the pic to imgur.com (no registration needed) then copy and paste the forum BB code URL they give you after you upload it.

 

[mesa metal]

parts are pretty plentyful for the 90s jacksons,,and the overhaul with the OFR should be fairly easy provided the neck is in good shape..
im in the process of resurecting a 1989 charvel 550xl..i got the tremposts from http://www.fretsonthenet.com/index.htm he has a lots of great parts
for jacksons too
cant wait to get that cab,,,coming from colarado so i should have it wed or thurs...
thanks for the tip for uploading the tube.will definately do that.....want to see who makes that tube
i actually got 3 more from ebay to have on hand,,they seem hard to get....
cheers

 

[farren]

Nice, that Charvel probably has a little more potential than my MIJ Jackson I won't know if the neck is any good till I get the proper box wrench for it Monday... I'm not too hopeful as the nut feels pretty tight right now yet it has a little backbow... I'll oil it and tighten it as far as I have to. If I snap the truss rod before I get it straight, who cares? It's no good anyway if I have to tighten it that far.

That's a good site... I've ordered bezels and screws from them before, top notch stuff. Bet that Charvel has/had wood screw trem posts in it like most Floyds before the early or mid 90s? Those things are awful. They had totally ovaled out of the holes on the Kramer I mentioned before. I reamed the holes a bit wider (25/64" or something bizarre) and pushed in quality bushings with machine screw trem posts in their place like all modern OFRs have, worked out great.

This Jackson actually has a fairly well-regarded LFR... It's a JT580 low-profile manufactured in Japan by Takeuchi... Has a garbage zinc trem block but proper tempered blades and is supposed to be a good tremolo when upgraded with an OFR block or better yet a big FU block.

 

[mesa metal]

fortunately the charvel has the metal studs in the body,,but when i got it it was missing one trempost so i got a set from the frets guy and they are perfect
fit...the only problem right now is after i stripped all the paint from the guitar the fingerboard is separated from the neck down to the 5th fret,,easy fix!!!
the nut on your jackson should move after a few back and forth tries with the wrench.....going to add soon a FU bigblock to my MAH....those are great..
by the way i posted the tubes i need to be identified,,thanks for the site to use ...for some reason the pic in the first post did not appear so i posted it again
it seems to be there still,,but not sure anyone can see it.....can you look to see if its there..
just got those tubes in the mail today..going to try one in the PI slot.....
good luck with the guitar..
so how is the dougs tube kit working out for you...they should be breaking in at this point...

 

[bandit2013]

Typical gain for 12ax7 is 100, there are other options if you want to alter tone characteristics a bit. Similar dual triode tubes that can replace the 12ax7 are listed with typical gain in parenthesis ; 5751 (60), 12aT7 (60), 12az7 (60) and there are others too, also esch of the tubes listed have different tone character to them. I am considering changing the PI to a 5751 (more headroom) and since it is a current driven stage and not an gain stage that would warm up the tone a bit.

I found "torres engineering" to be useful with some information.

 

[farren]

mesa metal, you're lucky with your trem posts then Love the FU noiseless/heavy duty springs, too. I used to keep clear tubing from the hardware store around my springs to prevent them from reverberating, worked pretty well but it's nice to have a tidier solution. I even have their dumb brass spring claw in one of my guitars that probably makes no difference, but I like it Yep, tubes still sounding great. I'm not sure if I've noticed break-in or not, I thought they always sounded great... I'm probably easy to please though since I was already satisfied with plain Mesa tubes. And yep, your picture is showing up fine.

bandit2013, that's an interesting idea... V1 and V7 I've both considering using lower gain tubes in, but I'm pretty satisfied with the current input noise level, so V7 will likely be my next tube-swap candidate.

 

[bandit2013]

I am still researching on the preamp tubes. I am still not satisfied with the overall tone. The other tubes will work fine as a suitable replacement for 12AX7. I am trying to warm it up and tame that high freq response. I have been able to gain some treble control but not much. As for presence on CH2 and CH3, no difference if maxed out or dialed out. I think I will get some of the different varieties and roll with it just to hear the difference.

 

[farren]

mesa metal, got the 7 mm box wrench I needed and that neck is totally straight now Looks like I'll have a "new" old guitar once I'm done with it.

 

[mesa metal]

mesa metal, got the 7 mm box wrench I needed and that neck is totally straight now Looks like I'll have a "new" old guitar once I'm done with it.

dude that great news,,thanks for checkin the picture of the tubes for me.i guess no one knows what they are.......i have the brass claw too in my mah and i made noisless springs using heatshrink tubing..works great!!i also took the springs that are used for the pickup height and replaced with silicone tubing....and i always use genuine floyd rose parts for everything...especially the tremolo springs.they are totally different than that of a strat spring.....same goes for the spring claw too
my 2x12 cab should be here tues...should be awesome.. :twisted: good luck with the guitar..keep us posted...
@ bandit2013 im going to try different tubes in the V7 slot as well...im thinking though a 5751 may weaken(for lack of a better term)
that super crunch i have now with the current pre setup i have in there ......treble control should not be too much of an issue depending on which
tubes you decide to use.....i may even go with a similar setup that farren has.......remember that the treble and gain control seem to work together
the more treble you add to the mix it will affect the gain.......less is more sometimes....not sure why you cant hear any difference with the presence
control on channel 2,,3,,,,mine is very sensitive to little tweaks here and there...
get a good variety of tubes at different gain levels and keep rolling till you get that sound you want to achieve :
when i get a chance ill take some pics of the mkV and post them in the "post your rig section"with the guitar in there too

 

[farren]

Good idea with the heatstrink, I'd try that out if I had some thick enough. Plastic tubing on the outside works well but it's pretty time-consuming to get it over the length of the spring. I've used silicone tubing in place of springs on direct-mounted guitars before, works well.

How's the cab? I'll take some rig pics once I finish my custom footswitch and Jackson

 

[mesa metal]

i actually have not had time to hook it up yet but will tomorrow,,,
it is in perfect shape and is the 140 watt cab..
definately will like to see some pics,,ill get some posted too..

 

[mesa metal]

edit::layed through the 2x12 and is freakin awesome.sounds as good as the 4x12 rectocab
tight ,punchy and not harsh at all....extreme mode is fantastic and brutal..
tweed mode is very clean and clear sounding.....channel 2 is great as well...and is very quiet.
im getting a bad hiss noise with the guitar volume turned down on channel 1 and 3
channel 2 is dead quiet....
starting to get annoying.....going to change out the tubes in V1 and V3 and see if that clears it up alittle
is any one else having that same problem???

 

[farren]

Hmm we talked a bit before about a little background noise in Tweed mode and channel 3 in general, but I know it's normal for channel 3 at least, and I get it as well in Tweed, and a bit in Crunch as well. When you say channel 2 is quiet, do you mean relative to the background noise of the other channels, or something else?

 

[mesa metal]

sorry i know we discussed this topic briefly before,,but the hiss was getting worse and a little annoying,,,,,i just spent an hour or so switching out preamp tubes to see if that would eliminate the noise,,,,,,i ended up putting a tungsol(110/110)in V1 and a lower gain sovtek lps(110/110)in V7 all the rest are the same..
i swapped out each tube one at a time with the stock tubes that came with the amp,,,,,,,yes channel 2 is quieter in background noise...but i think that is a quieter circuit in of itself..
so right now the hissing is not as bad as before...i even pluged the amp in my 1100dollar furman power conditioner that is used for my home stereo...still making abnormal amounts of noise......the tung sol in v1 did have an effect on the noise but changed the tone a little so i have to go back and tweak..that mullard in V1 was a tad bright anyway!!!
i guess im being a little too anal when it comes to this amp..and reading tooooo much into what others are posting on this topic.......so im just going to enjoy this amp and not worry about the little stuff.......thanks farren......