Why were porcelain sockets discountinued?

[vrdyer]

Can someone tell me why Boogie elected to discontinue using porcelain sockets....other than it was cheaper to build?

 

[GD_NC]

I was not aware they had changed.

That would be surprising given the big deal they make in their marketing literature about using ONLY porcelain sockets.

http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/Building_Keepers/building_keepers.html

 

[screamingdaisy]

Both my Mark V and LSS have porcelain sockets.

 

[vrdyer]

My mistake then. I had read something that said there was a plastic socket right into the circuit board????? Please tell me more about the build of your Mark V. Is it as sturdy as previous Marks? My Mark III is quite old and still keeps on tickin'.

 

[zodiac272]

I'm sure the newer amps are about as tough. check out the mesa plant tour vids on youtube... from Premier guitar i think.

scott

 

[Boogiebabies]

They don't use ceramic preamp sockets anymore. They use the large plastic Belton PCB sockets.

 

[zodiac272]

They could be made out of bakelite or something like that

 

[msi]

They no longer use older style tube sockets because you can't run them through a solder flow machine. They must be hand soldered, which means every part of the board needs to be hand soldered. The belton sockets they now use can go through a solder machine. That means the boards can be hand populated then run through the machine and all parts are soldered at once.

It's a time and money saving measure used to lower the cost of production and lower production times.

I should add that I'm making an assumption but all the changes from the older boards to the newer ones either decrease production time or lower production costs. The change of sockets speeds up the production time of the boards. Using ribbon cables lowers production time by not have to solder a rats nest like in the older amps. Using pcb mounted power tube sockets prevents someone from hand soldering the power tubes.

Also note that although all the front panel pots are panel mounted (flying leads) most of the rear panel components are pcb mounted. Mounting the rear parts like this lowers production time. It also shows their whole flying lead sales pitch is crap because they'll mount the rear parts on pcb boards but keep the front panel mounted.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Also note that although all the front panel pots are panel mounted (flying leads) most of the rear panel components are pcb mounted. Mounting the rear parts like this lowers production time. It also shows their whole flying lead sales pitch is crap because they'll mount the rear parts on pcb boards but keep the front panel mounted.

I'm guessing that the use of flying leads is limited to the preamp stage because it provides the most direct path from the PCB to the pot, and it's in the preamp stage where small distances are more critical. Once the signal leaves the preamp and heads off to the rest of the amp it's not such a big deal if it takes a slightly longer route.

I've also traced out a couple of amps and as best I can tell the ribbon cables are used for non-audio signals (ie, switching relays, mode switches, etc) while the audio signals still pass through regular wire between the PCBs.

 

[msi]

I'm guessing that the use of flying leads is limited to the preamp stage because it provides the most direct path from the PCB to the pot, and it's in the preamp stage where small distances are more critical. Once the signal leaves the preamp and heads off to the rest of the amp it's not such a big deal if it takes a slightly longer route.

I've also traced out a couple of amps and as best I can tell the ribbon cables are used for non-audio signals (ie, switching relays, mode switches, etc) while the audio signals still pass through regular wire between the PCBs.

While I agree with your assumptions they are not so with the mesa amps. The front panel pcb traces are strung out through the front of the amp. The two images included are for an F-30 and a series 2 Solo 50. You can see from the red box that the tone stack traces weave through about three to four inches of the board. On the solo 50 they weave through a larger portion of the board. Each trace on the pcb board is basically a wire glued to fiberglass. The shortest path would have been from the part straight to the pot. Also note on both amps parts pcb mounted on the back panel. I'm not saying it's a bad design The amps work and they work great. The changes have allowed them to build quality amps consistently and more efficiently. Just that the advertising is dishonest.

 

[>Photi G<]

Mesa's definitely aren't built like they used to be, probably so that production would be faster. Nonetheless, the Power Tube sockets are still porcelain, since they prevent arcing better than plastic, bakelite, or phenolic. The preamp sockets are no longer porcelain, even though Belton does make a porcelain socket that will go through a wave solder machine. The ribbon cables carry switching logic signals, for the most part, everything on the front panel is mounted on it, and soldered via flying leads, while most, or all back panel components are PCB mounted, since it is mostly switching logic, and not too many tone-critical components. Anywhere where tone could be won, or lost is hand-wired. For example, the larger Orange Drop capacitors are inserted by hand, as well as the big filter capacitors, and the output transformer leads.

One thing that does set Mesa's construction apart from larger companies, like Marshall, Randall, Peavey, and the like, is the quality of their PCB's. IIRC, they use double sided, plated-through-hole, 1/8" thick boards, most of the layouts are hand-drawn by Randy himself, not a CAD drawing, and they use separate PCB's for the preamp, power amp and jacks. So if any one breaks, it can be replaced individually. While in other amps, everything is usually soldered to a single sided, surface coated, very often bare copper 1/16" main board, so if one jack breaks, or you bash in one of the power tube sockets, the entire amp is beyond repair.

Sure, the website may be somewhat un-truthful, but probably because that page hasn't been updated since 2005ish.

 

[msi]

The hand traced pcbs is another thing that can possibly be proven false. What do we see to the right of John Marshal in this picture. It's a cad program being used to design the most recent pcb's.

 

[>Photi G<]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe I said, and if I didn't, I meant to say that all mesas designed by Randy have hand-drawn PCB's. John designed the multi-watt Dual/Triple Rec, so he drew the new PCB using CAD. DVR Designed the TriAxis and Electra Dyne, so he drew the pcb's using CAD as well. Only Randy's designs get the handmade treatment. Point:

And

 

[msi]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe I said, and if I didn't, I meant to say that all mesas designed by Randy have hand-drawn PCB's. John designed the multi-watt Dual/Triple Rec, so he drew the new PCB using CAD. DVR Designed the TriAxis and Electra Dyne, so he drew the pcb's using CAD as well. Only Randy's designs get the handmade treatment. Point:

And

You know, you make a good point and I stand corrected. Unfortunately their marketing doesn't mention that caveat.

 

[O==00==O]

I don't get to play with many amps, but I have worked on several Mesa's, and a couple others. Mesa definitely does cut corners quite often, as msi and others have said, but they still have their salient niche in the pro amp market. Their marketing has always been bad for anything other than just getting their product on big-name stages to keep the mainstream dudes in the crowd Jonesing for one themselves. That's their marketing technique and it works well.

Modding an early '90s Mesa is much better than a '90s Peavey, but their layouts are just all crammed, the power is too close to the signal, high voltage traces go along right next to the power tube signal traces on some, if not all their amps, because it utilizes the PCB space more efficiently. But, it's hard to say that discredits the merits of Mesa/Boogie, because Randy has always run the company in that direction of complex channel switching (which inherently is not for the audio purist). Another thing is that the wires in my Studio Caliber are very brittle and stiff. I don't think it's because they are old, but admit that's a possibility. Everything I replace seems to be of higher quality (20 AWG 105* C, copper, or pre-tinned much finer stranded wire). I just buy parts from an electronics surplus store locally. Also, I know the Studio Caliber was not one of their high-end line of amps, but the preamp tube sockets are not porcelain. The PCB-mounted power tube sockets might be, though.

 

[bb47]

The hand traced pcbs is another thing that can possibly be proven false. What do we see to the right of John Marshal in this picture. It's a cad program being used to design the most recent pcb's.

What is the name of the PCB software that he uses?

 

[MrMarkIII]

There sure are a lot of Mesa amps owned by those complaining about Mesa's marketing. :lol:

 

[BaldPaul]

The best Mesa marketing I ever heard was and is Carlos Santana! I didn't know people read those marketing blurbs Seriously though I appreciate great layout and handwiring but for my money if the amp delivers the tone I don't mind how the voodoo happens (Short of digital). Quality PCBs, turret boards or tag strips whatever.

 

[gonzo]

The hand traced pcbs is another thing that can possibly be proven false. What do we see to the right of John Marshal in this picture. It's a cad program being used to design the most recent pcb's.

What is the name of the PCB software that he uses?

AUTOCAD

 

[bb47]

The hand traced pcbs is another thing that can possibly be proven false. What do we see to the right of John Marshal in this picture. It's a cad program being used to design the most recent pcb's.

What is the name of the PCB software that he uses?

AUTOCAD

What version?
This app has orange taskbar icon -what could it be? Inventor?