Why does a Mesa Recto 4x12 sounds better than my V30 2x12?

[massless]

Hi

First post here and first time owner of a Recto, which I picked up today. Its a Dual Solo Head, 2 Channel version. When I tried it out it sounded exactly as I expected it to, that was through a treadplate Recto 4x12 slant cab, which I assume was fitted with V30s?

When I got the amp home though it doesn't sound nearly as good through my ported 2x12, yet that also has V30s in it. I'm surprised how much better the Mesa 4x12 sounded. Problem is I never want to own a 4x12 cab every again. They're a giant pain in the arse to lug. Am I right in assuming the mesa 4x12 has V30s, or could they have been EVs or something else? I'd characterise the sound as 'flat', tight and broad, and I mean flat in a good way: no ugly spikes in the frequency and no fizz. My 2x12 however is flabby and fizzy.

I'm tempted to buy that 4x12, but I know I'll regret it. What are my options? Do the Mesa 2x12 cabs sound like the 4x12s in terms of frequency balance?

 

[vick1000]

No way to tell if it had V30s or not. What do you not like about the tone from your 2x12? I replaced two of the V30s in the top of my Standard Mesa 412, with Eminence V128s, it smoothed it out nicely. When I had an H&K Warp T 412, the V30s in the top of it did not sound as harsh as the ones in the Mesa. They could be different manufacturing plants, or material differences, or just more/less age. Cab design has a lot to do with how a speaker projects, especially at high volume, and of course the low end shape as resonance will change with cabinet design and materials.

 

[massless]

I've modded my 2x12 to a similar design to Port City cabs, which was an improvement over the stock open baffle box (better dispersion and not as honky, plus good low end without boom from the proximity effect). But its still a bit peaky and shouty in the upper mids and the bass while OK is not as tight.

I just did a quick test by hooking up a second 2x12 (closed baffle, completely different speakers) and that is a closer approximation to the Mesa 4x12. Big, broad and even sound... effortless would be a good word to describe it. Strange how adding another cab makes such a difference.

Two 2x12s is just as inconvenient as a 4x12 though. Would like to get the same effect but with one 2x12 but this could be a fools errand.

 

[thunda1216]

how about 2 thiele 1x12 cabs? I do this often with good results.

 

[massless]

If it'll get the same effect as the 4x12 then that's a possibility. I'm still a bit confused why it does sound better with the two 2x12s though. Is the difference purely acoustic or is there something electrical going on, like does the head prefer to 'see' 4 speakers instead of 2?

 

[thunda1216]

no, it's acoustic. has to do with the inherent resonance of a 412 compared to 212. some 212's sound better than others. on a whim, several years ago I bought a Crate 212 cab. It was oversized, birch, closed back, but it was really boomy. The speakers were dreadful. I replaced them with an Eminence Governor and a Wizard. Still bassy and boomy, so I replaced the back cover with one that was open about 3 inches. Instant improvement. Still lots of bottom, but the boomy stuff was gone. It will compete with a 412, especially if I don't raise it off the floor.

 

[massless]

My 2x12 is also ported with a closed back. It's not so much the bottom end that's the immediate problem as the upper mid and treble. Well it's the overall balance, it's a bit fizzy/shouty on its own. My other amp was the same with it. Could be that the cab is resonating unsympathetically.

 

[vick1000]

I think it's the V30s, they are known for bieng harsh in the upper mids. With no other type speakers to fill out the mix, that band of high-mids is ear piercing. They are also worse when they are new, but they never really smooth out. Great for metal though, cut through hard in a mix with loud drummer and overdriven bass.

 

[siggy14]

You will never get a 2x12 to sound like a 4x12 in room sound, Mic'd through a PA they will sound the same about 95% of the way if you are using the exact same v30's.

That is the next thing, Mesa V30's are different then normal V30's, so unless you are using Mesa V30's in your 2x12 it will not be close. Also the porting will change the way the cab sounds and reacts.

I would just pick up a Mesa 4x12, if you are not gigging who cares, if you are gigging well get your bandmates to help you move it, really not much difference between picking up a 2x12 by yourself or having a buddy grab one side of the 4x12 and you both move it.

 

[siggy14]

I should also add another reason they sound different is because speaker Ohms change the way a speaker sounds, so even if you are using two 16 ohm speakers to get the cab to 8 ohm it will still sound different, here is a good explanation from Steve Fryette (VHT/Fryette amp designer), actually here is the whole post he posted.

The 30 in V30 has nothing to do with power handling. But making a distinction between the Mesa version and the off-the-shelf version is legit, even though it has little to do with actual power handling capacity. The rated power handling of the V30 of any version (see below) is 65W.

The Mesa version is OEM. This is the T4416 model, which is an 16 ohm speaker. It is made in England specifically for Mesa. But Mesa didn't specify it that way. From what we were told by Celestion around 1997-8, Celestion changed the model T3904 (16 ohm) V30 design in the early 90s to make it easier and cheaper to produce. Mesa didn't like it and insisted on the original version, which then became an OEM model. The 8 ohm version of the Mesa speaker is the T4335. To get an OEM model from Celestion requires a large order. This speaker was made on a separate production line from the off-the-shelf V30, which as Van Nord says is fizzy and thin sounding by comparison.

There is a third 16 ohm version only used by Marshall - T3897 - which is even brighter.

When we were using Celestion speakers, we found out about the existence of the T4416 which we had purchased from our German distributor at the time and asked Celestion about it. They had claimed that they didn't offer OEM varitions of the V30, but changed their story when we sent them a T4416 "for evaluation". Then a new rep called us, confirmed that there were in fact two separate V30 production lines and agreed to make us a special T Number OEM speaker. After a couple of months back and forth, we placed a large order and requested the special number assignment, at which time they cancelled the order and reneged on the deal. That's when we switched to Eminence. We haven't used Celestions speakers since.

It's not that V30s don't sound good with our amps. It's just that the T4416 sounds better. The T3904 is now made in China and after all these years, the P50E does what we wanted Celestion to do originally - and does it better, in fact - so we don't need Celestions help.

So, if you like V30s, there is nothing about the amp design that will be compromised using a V30. Our amps are not voiced "only" for the P50E. What is optimized for the P50E is the cabinet design. In that, the P50 will perform better in our cab than any others.

And now you know that when you say V30, you could be talking about 5 different speakers - that all sound slightly different:*

T3903 Standard 8 ohm
T3904 Standard 16 ohm
T3987 Marshall OEM 16 ohm
T4416 Mesa OEM 16 ohm
T4335 Mesa OEM 8 ohm

*When you change the impedance rating of the speaker, you also change the inductance of the coil which changes the resonant frequency among other things. So if you have 2 identical amps and 2 identical cabs - one cab loaded with 8 ohm speakers and amp set to 8 next to one loaded with 16 ohm speakers and amp set to 16, they will sound noticably different. The 16 ohm rig will usually sound brighter and deeper.

Personally I prefer the 4416, but not in a Recto 4X12. And therein lies the rabbit hole - you can't accurately compare like speakers in unlike cabs.
Last edited by sfryette; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:04 PM. Reason: Adding more mind numbing detail...

 

[screamingdaisy]

Am I right in assuming the mesa 4x12 has V30s, or could they have been EVs or something else? I'd characterise the sound as 'flat', tight and broad, and I mean flat in a good way: no ugly spikes in the frequency and no fizz. My 2x12 however is flabby and fizzy.

That wound be an apt description if you're comparing Mesa OEM V30s to off the shelf V30s. Generic V30s have a stronger upper mid spike. Mesa OEMs are flatter sounding by comparison.

I wouldn't call generic V30s flabby though... Might be a result of the ported cab.

I'm tempted to buy that 4x12, but I know I'll regret it. What are my options? Do the Mesa 2x12 cabs sound like the 4x12s in terms of frequency balance?

They have the same basic character, although the 2x12 has a touch more top and bottom end while the 4x12 has a touch more midrange.

 

[firmani99]

Am I right in assuming the mesa 4x12 has V30s, or could they have been EVs or something else? I'd characterise the sound as 'flat', tight and broad, and I mean flat in a good way: no ugly spikes in the frequency and no fizz. My 2x12 however is flabby and fizzy.

That wound be an apt description if you're comparing Mesa OEM V30s to off the shelf V30s. Generic V30s have a stronger upper mid spike. Mesa OEMs are flatter sounding by comparison.

I wouldn't call generic V30s flabby though... Might be a result of the ported cab.

I'm tempted to buy that 4x12, but I know I'll regret it. What are my options? Do the Mesa 2x12 cabs sound like the 4x12s in terms of frequency balance?

They have the same basic character, although the 2x12 has a touch more top and bottom end while the 4x12 has a touch more midrange.

I agree with all of this. Mesa v30's are definitely better sounding. My rectifier cab and marshall cab with v30's have the similar v 30 character but the marshall cab is missing so much. I have a rectifier 4x12 and a 2x12 horizontal. They sound very similar especially when mic'd but because of the laws of physics the 4x12 will move more air. That being said I find it much easier to roll my 4x12 around than to carry my 2x12.

 

[massless]

Ok guys that's great info. I think the mystery has been solved: Mesa v30s are different. That and the cab differences pretty much explains everything I'm hearing. Isn't the internet great

A Mesa 2x12 would be ideal by the sound of it , or two thiel 1x12s. I'm up 3 flights of stairs so need luggability.

 

[3124+]

Get the 4x12.

 

[massless]

it is tempting, but compromises have to be made. I could buy it just for the mesa V30s in it I suppose as I've had no luck finding any for sale.

After swapping out the V30s from my cab I can confirm they are the culprit of the harsh upper mids & fizz. There are both T3904As.

 

[Jorn218]

It wasn't the speakers at all. It was the treadplate that made the cabinet sound better. The added mass and vibrating metal tone added to the sound of the cabinet.

I still don't understand why people always complain about lugging a 4x12 around. The darn thing has wheels. If you are carrying it then, well, you're special.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Wheels don't work on stairs.

Nor can I roll a 4x12 into the back of a truck.

Probably kind of hard to squeeze a 4x12 into a lot of cars.

I donno... it wasn't too hard for me to think of three reasons and I didn't even try all that hard.

 

[silentbob]

Aren't the recto 4x12s slightly larger than a "standard" 4x12? I haven't seen one in a while but recall a buddy having one that was larger than my Marshall cab.

 

[UnderJollyRoger]

Yeah, they are. Like Screamingdaisy said, there are a few reasons why 4x12's aren't that great at being carried around ...

Unless you got Roadies for that :lol:

 

[screamingdaisy]

Aren't the recto 4x12s slightly larger than a "standard" 4x12? I haven't seen one in a while but recall a buddy having one that was larger than my Marshall cab.

The Recto Standard cabs are a couple inches taller.

The Recto Traditional cabs are more traditionally sized.