Why are mesas mids vocied on the lower frequency range?

The Boogie Board

Help Support The Boogie Board:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
A

Anonymous

Guest
I have still been tweeking my lonestar and im finding the mids are to dark side and im a midrange *****. How can i voice my mids to be brighter? This midrange issue is making me contemplate selling the amp and buying something else. What can i do?
 
I found my DC-5 far too dark for me personally,I think my musical tastes have changed a bit.

After some great advice on this forum I changed the tubes and now the amp is transformed into a clearer more articulate beast.

Maybe a tube change would get you more in the direction you want to go.
 
Thanks to some great advice on here from Edward and Shredd I tried Mullard CV4024's in my amp and they worked out great.

They are as I am informed 30% less gain which doesnt sound too helpful but they smoothed out my lead channel superbly.

I guess from your name you are into Country? well so am I and my clean channel just couldnt be any better for playing Country. With my Tele equipped with a G and B bender I am in total Albert Lee heaven.I mean it is just right on the button whereas before it was just ok.

Have you tried these tubes in yours yet?
 
Boss Eq-20 get one if you could find one. Check on the bay. I use one in my Stiletto Deuce II and it really spreads the sound of the amp. I do not use radicals curves but slight adjustments here and there and it does the job well.

http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=161&ParentId=96
 
I can't speak to the Lonestar series, but this is the main problem with the Recto series, too. In fact, I would go so far as to say that that series is even becoming a bit obsolete as a result. When Randall designed the Rectos, he specifically set out to voice an amp that didn't sound like a hot-rodded Marshall. This was also right at the beginning of the popularity of Grunge, a musical movement characterized (among other things) by terrible guitar tones which were purposefully muddy, mushy and inarticulate.

Unfortunately, nothing helps to achieve that tone better than voicing an amp to produce too much 200Hz mids. If you are playing a severely down-tuned guitar, a stock Recto will provide a very full sound at that end of the frequency spectrum. This kind of sound was also very popular among rock, grunge and nu-metal guitarists throughout the 90's and well into the 2000's. However, it pretty much left the mid and high-mid range empty on many recordings.

Now that guitarists are getting over the long, dark hangover of grunge, rap-metal, nu-metal and poor playing in general, they are starting to notice that their tone is lacking when they try to do anything but down-tuned chugs. Lead players are beginning to once again appreciate the fact that the electric guitar is an instrument that lives and breathes in the mid range, and the resurgence of the graphic EQ pedal's popularity is one of the results.

Changing tubes can lessen the effect of the amp's tone stack voicing, but it can't fundamentally alter it. Same thing with EQ's. EQ's always do a better job of removing too much of a given frequency than they do of adding more of a frequency which is too weak. It's a lot like dealing with Photoshop. The filters in Photoshop can do some dramatic things, but they can't work miracles, and you'll always be better off starting with a good quality original photograph with high resolution. That way, only small tweaks are necessary to take the photo from good to great. Even in Photoshop, only so much can be done with a low-res, color-imbalanced photograph with bad lighting.

dmotisko mentioned the Boss EQ-20. I've got one. It's no different than any other graphic EQ in terms of how it affects the guitar's signal. The only difference is that it's digital and that it can store presets. That's it. It's a handy tool, but frankly it's a bit noisy. The Danelectro Fish n' Chips blows it away for quiet operation and price.[/i]
 
First lets start off by saying there is nothing wrong with an amp that sits in the lower mid section. The guitar actually also occupies that domain, technically a guitar should occupy low mids, high mids and highs. It all comes down to the what tone you want and what you perceive as good tone!

Alot of your facts are off and your conclusions are not correct. First most guitarists that tend to use marshall and play hard/heavy music tend to scoop the hell out of the mid's, in the same effect giving you the mesa tone. Now anyone that plays a recto knows to keep the mid's up and you will sit perfect in the mix. But I will say a scooped marshall will never be in the same realm as a rec, but you get the same effect when it comes to mids.

But your biggest mistake was saying Recto's where designed for grunge, actually most grunge artists were marshall users or or pedal users, I can only think of a handfull of grunge bands that used recto's and even there music is questionable if it is grunge or not.

Actually recto's were designed with the 80's shred metal in mind, the first 500+ recto's are testament to that. But then the music scene changed and the recto's got slightly revoiced. And no they werent revoiced with a crappy tone in mind like you claim the grunge scene had, hey were revoiced to be a rythem amp, which is what the music scene was about at that time, getting away from the flashy solo's of the 80's.

I will say that recto's are great for heavier music, whether it be pop punk, hard rock or nu-metal, screamo etc.. They give the tone that most rythem guitarists of those genres are looking for. Many great albums and tones have come from recto's, maybe not to your liking, but they are there for the people that like those styles.


Now for a classic type rock, yes the recto's are not the best unless you have a roadster or roadking which have the brit channel which excels at those types of tones.

But Mesa Realized that the music scene was splitting/changing again, you still had those groups that still like the heavy music that is mostly rythem but then you have some of the newer bands that are getting back more into the more classic sound.

So mesa being in touch with there customers came out with the stiletto to passify the groups that want more of the traditional guitar tone. They were also smart in marketing this amp to bands saying, have one guitarist with a recto and one with a stiletto, because idealy this is a great setup, one guitarist filling the upper mids and one guitarist filling the lower mid's and bottem end, talk about a full specture of guitar tone!

In a band situation all intruments have to share frequencies, the lower mid frequencies is a very strange frequency, traditional marshalls where partly in that freq but mostly in the upper mid's, at the same time bass guitars are mostly for lows and also dable in the lower mid's, so basically you can voice an amp around the low mid's and still be safe and share that spectrum with the bass. Actually most amps were designed from fenders who also were a low mid amp.

Chris McKinley said:
I can't speak to the Lonestar series, but this is the main problem with the Recto series, too. In fact, I would go so far as to say that that series is even becoming a bit obsolete as a result. When Randall designed the Rectos, he specifically set out to voice an amp that didn't sound like a hot-rodded Marshall. This was also right at the beginning of the popularity of Grunge, a musical movement characterized (among other things) by terrible guitar tones which were purposefully muddy, mushy and inarticulate.

Unfortunately, nothing helps to achieve that tone better than voicing an amp to produce too much 200Hz mids. If you are playing a severely down-tuned guitar, a stock Recto will provide a very full sound at that end of the frequency spectrum. This kind of sound was also very popular among rock, grunge and nu-metal guitarists throughout the 90's and well into the 2000's. However, it pretty much left the mid and high-mid range empty on many recordings.

Now that guitarists are getting over the long, dark hangover of grunge, rap-metal, nu-metal and poor playing in general, they are starting to notice that their tone is lacking when they try to do anything but down-tuned chugs. Lead players are beginning to once again appreciate the fact that the electric guitar is an instrument that lives and breathes in the mid range, and the resurgence of the graphic EQ pedal's popularity is one of the results.

Changing tubes can lessen the effect of the amp's tone stack voicing, but it can't fundamentally alter it. Same thing with EQ's. EQ's always do a better job of removing too much of a given frequency than they do of adding more of a frequency which is too weak. It's a lot like dealing with Photoshop. The filters in Photoshop can do some dramatic things, but they can't work miracles, and you'll always be better off starting with a good quality original photograph with high resolution. That way, only small tweaks are necessary to take the photo from good to great. Even in Photoshop, only so much can be done with a low-res, color-imbalanced photograph with bad lighting.

dmotisko mentioned the Boss EQ-20. I've got one. It's no different than any other graphic EQ in terms of how it affects the guitar's signal. The only difference is that it's digital and that it can store presets. That's it. It's a handy tool, but frankly it's a bit noisy. The Danelectro Fish n' Chips blows it away for quiet operation and price.[/i]
 
Chris McKinley wrote.

dmotisko mentioned the Boss EQ-20. I've got one. It's no different than any other graphic EQ in terms of how it affects the guitar's signal. The only difference is that it's digital and that it can store presets. That's it. It's a handy tool, but frankly it's a bit noisy. The Danelectro Fish n' Chips blows it away for quiet operation and price.[/i][/quote]


Mine is not noisy at all. I never raise the level of the eq itself it sits flat as well as no radical curves. If you need to do radical curving buy a different amplifier. I will at most raise or lower a frequency 1db to spread the sound to which my tone controls on my amp will not hit.
 
siggy14,

RE: "Alot of your facts are off and your conclusions are not correct. First most guitarists that tend to use marshall and play hard/heavy music tend to scoop the hell out of the mid's, in the same effect giving you the mesa tone.". You'll have to do better than that if you're going to claim something so categorical as that my "facts" are off, etc. Facts simply are, and conclusions regarding issues of taste are of necessity subjective. You are incorrect claiming that "most" Marshall users scoop the mids. Some do, yes, but that trend disappeared many years ago, and even still, it only holds true now for the heavy metal genre. Keep in mind that most Marshall users are not heavy metal stylists by claim.

Further, the idea that all you have to do to get a Mesa Recto tone is to scoop the mids on a Marshall is downright absurd. I've owned both amps and this simply isn't the case. Randall wouldn't have made so much money off of us selling Rectos for boutique prices if we could simply have adjusted our Marshall's mid control to get the same tone. The two amps' tone stacks aren't particularly similar at all if you look at the schematics and specs.

RE: "But your biggest mistake was saying Recto's where designed for grunge, actually most grunge artists were marshall users or or pedal users, I can only think of a handfull of grunge bands that used recto's and even there music is questionable if it is grunge or not." You need to read more carefully. Nowhere in my post did I claim that Rectos were designed for grunge. I said that Randall "specifically set out to voice an amp that didn't sound like a hot-rodded Marshall.". This is true by Randall's own claim. I also said, "This was also right at the beginning of the popularity of Grunge...". This is also factually true, since the advent of grunge and the initial introduction of the Rectifier series occurred within the same time period. That much of grunge's "wall of mud" sound was generated by distortion pedals run into a distorted Marshall is well-known and not something I would dispute.

Your summary of the original purpose of the Rectos as an amp with the high-gain hot-rodded mod already built-in is correct, and in no way contradicts anything I specifically stated. It just so happens that in voicing an amp that didn't sound like a high-gain Marshall, Randall chose to emphasize the bass and low-mids instead. This worked (still does) remarkably well for some purposes and poorly for others. It's not exactly a news flash to anyone that stock Rectos are brilliant for heavy rhythms but do so at the price of not being particularly well-suited to lead playing.

It's also a well-known practice that the famous heavy Mesa sound is achieved in-studio by EQ'ing back the 200Hz mud and, in many cases, using an overdrive in front of the amp for the actual recording.

You should also understand that I am a player/owner of a Triple Rectifier myself, and that it is still by far my favorite amp. With certain tweaks, as I have detailed many times in this forum, it can cover the full range of sounds from ultra-modern heavy rhythms to high-gain leads to mid-gain classic rock and even a good bit of British Invasion-era sounds. But while I love the amp, I'm not a Mesa salesman and I have no mindless loyalty to the brand, which lets me objectively see the shortcomings of the amp as well as its strengths, and I am honest and candid about both.

The perfect amp that can do everthing flawlessly hasn't yet been invented. While I love my Recto and choose to keep it even though I can afford any amp I want, I still see its flaws, few though they may be. When someone asks, genuinely, why their Mesa is voiced as it is or how it can be tweaked to sound better, I give them as much useful information as I can, even if it means admitting publicly that the beloved Recto isn't perfect.
 
Um you need to learn to read, I simply stated that most marshall users scoop the mids giving you the same effect as a recto, I DID say however that it will never sound like a recto or be in the same domain.

Now I guess I should have spoken more clearly. You stated the recto's where designed as the music scene was switching to grunge which is not true. Randall started designing the recto when 80's metal was still the main music style.

As i have stated before most grunge bands did not touch a recto, mostly it was either marshall or a pedal driven type distortion. By the way not sure what you have against grunge but there was nothing wrong with that music, yes was completly different then 80's metal, but some of the grunge was alot better then alot of 80's music.

As to recording there is alot of stuff they do in studios to all amps, not just mesa's. As to using a OD in front of a mesa, well having owned many amps and still owning many different kinds of my 24 years of playing, I can tell you must will excel with a booster in front including all new amps. Yes some seem great without it, but you do the side by side it still sounds better by lowering the gain and jacking that front end with a booster.

Chris McKinley said:
siggy14,

RE: "Alot of your facts are off and your conclusions are not correct. First most guitarists that tend to use marshall and play hard/heavy music tend to scoop the hell out of the mid's, in the same effect giving you the mesa tone.". You'll have to do better than that if you're going to claim something so categorical as that my "facts" are off, etc. Facts simply are, and conclusions regarding issues of taste are of necessity subjective. You are incorrect claiming that "most" Marshall users scoop the mids. Some do, yes, but that trend disappeared many years ago, and even still, it only holds true now for the heavy metal genre. Keep in mind that most Marshall users are not heavy metal stylists by claim.

Further, the idea that all you have to do to get a Mesa Recto tone is to scoop the mids on a Marshall is downright absurd. I've owned both amps and this simply isn't the case. Randall wouldn't have made so much money off of us selling Rectos for boutique prices if we could simply have adjusted our Marshall's mid control to get the same tone. The two amps' tone stacks aren't particularly similar at all if you look at the schematics and specs.

RE: "But your biggest mistake was saying Recto's where designed for grunge, actually most grunge artists were marshall users or or pedal users, I can only think of a handfull of grunge bands that used recto's and even there music is questionable if it is grunge or not." You need to read more carefully. Nowhere in my post did I claim that Rectos were designed for grunge. I said that Randall "specifically set out to voice an amp that didn't sound like a hot-rodded Marshall.". This is true by Randall's own claim. I also said, "This was also right at the beginning of the popularity of Grunge...". This is also factually true, since the advent of grunge and the initial introduction of the Rectifier series occurred within the same time period. That much of grunge's "wall of mud" sound was generated by distortion pedals run into a distorted Marshall is well-known and not something I would dispute.

Your summary of the original purpose of the Rectos as an amp with the high-gain hot-rodded mod already built-in is correct, and in no way contradicts anything I specifically stated. It just so happens that in voicing an amp that didn't sound like a high-gain Marshall, Randall chose to emphasize the bass and low-mids instead. This worked (still does) remarkably well for some purposes and poorly for others. It's not exactly a news flash to anyone that stock Rectos are brilliant for heavy rhythms but do so at the price of not being particularly well-suited to lead playing.

It's also a well-known practice that the famous heavy Mesa sound is achieved in-studio by EQ'ing back the 200Hz mud and, in many cases, using an overdrive in front of the amp for the actual recording.

You should also understand that I am a player/owner of a Triple Rectifier myself, and that it is still by far my favorite amp. With certain tweaks, as I have detailed many times in this forum, it can cover the full range of sounds from ultra-modern heavy rhythms to high-gain leads to mid-gain classic rock and even a good bit of British Invasion-era sounds. But while I love the amp, I'm not a Mesa salesman and I have no mindless loyalty to the brand, which lets me objectively see the shortcomings of the amp as well as its strengths, and I am honest and candid about both.

The perfect amp that can do everthing flawlessly hasn't yet been invented. While I love my Recto and choose to keep it even though I can afford any amp I want, I still see its flaws, few though they may be. When someone asks, genuinely, why their Mesa is voiced as it is or how it can be tweaked to sound better, I give them as much useful information as I can, even if it means admitting publicly that the beloved Recto isn't perfect.
 
Depends what style of music and what speakers you are using already.

V30's= mid spike, great for a mid relaxed amp, why mesa teamed them up with the recto.
75's= mid relaxed and why marshall loves them with there amps and pushes them
C90's=mid relaxed but people say smoother then the V30's.
Greenbacks= lots of mid's, smooth top not much of a bottem end.

countrybluesman said:
Would changing out speakers help make the mids alittle brighter?
 
I have the stock mesa black shadow speakers in my Combo. Im thinking maybe eminence red white and blues. I play blues and southern rock.
 
I would go with some greenbacks or speakers voiced close to that. Not sure what the enimence equilvalant is.

countrybluesman said:
I have the stock mesa black shadow speakers in my Combo. Im thinking maybe eminence red white and blues. I play blues and southern rock.
 
siggy14 said:
I would go with some greenbacks or speakers voiced close to that. Not sure what the enimence equilvalant is.

countrybluesman said:
I have the stock mesa black shadow speakers in my Combo. Im thinking maybe eminence red white and blues. I play blues and southern rock.

Is Virginia close enough to the "delta" for you to advise a certain speaker for southern rock or the blues? I got close today when I rode to the end of the "Bankhead National Forrest" and then turned right. :shock: You could roll down the window, and hear the banjos' screaming: "Squeal like a Pig" :lol: :lol: :lol: I would say "Greenbacks" Weeeeeeeeeeeee!
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
 
I lived in TN for a year with the country folks, plus who doesnt love some good ol southern rock. That is why I also choose greenbacks as number 1 choice.

JOEY B. said:
siggy14 said:
I would go with some greenbacks or speakers voiced close to that. Not sure what the enimence equilvalant is.

countrybluesman said:
I have the stock mesa black shadow speakers in my Combo. Im thinking maybe eminence red white and blues. I play blues and southern rock.

Is Virginia close enough to the "delta" for you to advise a certain speaker for southern rock or the blues? I got close today when I rode to the end of the "Bankhead National Forrest" and then turned right. :shock: You could roll down the window, and hear the banjos' screaming: "Squeal like a Pig" :lol: :lol: :lol: I would say "Greenbacks" Weeeeeeeeeeeee!
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
 
Back
Top