Vintage versus modern

[paddyhaig]

I'm originally from the UK, but now live happily Stateside. I have a Vox AD120VTH Amp head and 2 x AD212 Speaker Cabinets and it's a decent setup. I play a Gibson SG Raw Power and a Squire John5 telecaster. The reason for the Vox AD120VTH was it was and is the closest amp I believe to the vintage Vox UL730 (I was offered a vintage UL730 for $9000.00. Unfortunately a lot more than my budget) that had a solid state pre amp and a tube/valve power amp. I'm a big fan of Joy Division and I love the edginess of Bernard Sumners guitar. He used a Vox UL730 and an SG. But, I've always wanted a Mesa Boogie. Now I'm in a position to swap my Vox for a Mesa Boogie five:25 head and 2 X 12" cab. Which to me sounds like a decent deal. I know the five:25 isn't going to have the volume or modeling features of the Vox AD120VTH, but I can always plug it into the PA via the DI Jack and use stomp boxes.
My question is however? I have kinda befriended a UK Amp repair man via Facebook, by the name of Roland Lumby, who announced to all his FB friends that he won't allow Mesa Boogie amps into his shop. And on the whole he suggests using vintage amps over modern amps. He's given me no details as to why? (I don't know if he's an old fuddy duddy or has sound reasoning for this statement)
Does anyone feel Mesa amps might be inferior to other brands? Probably not the right place to ask? Does anyone feel that Mesa Boogie vintage amps are better than the newer models? Any and all feedback is greaty appreciated.
Roland's comment I don't think was based on nationality, as he seems to speak highly of Fender amps. Just saying. Although he suggested that the best brand was Hiwatt.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Hiwatts were meticulously built, but they were also relatively simple circuits. If Mesa made the Mark V using that technology it'd most likely be significantly larger, cost a fortune, look like a rats nest of wires and be prone to excessive noise. There's a reason technology evolves. Dave Reeves (Hiwatts) wasn't trying to build multi-channel high gain amplifiers with effects loops and multiple power settings. Randall Smith (Mesa) is.

In a way amps are like cars. Some mechanics don't like working on anything that's fuel injected and can't diagnose anything to do with electronic engine controls. In this case, is the issue that the car is too complicated? Or that the mechanic lacks the skill or desire to work on anything more advanced than a carbourator?

 

[paddyhaig]

Thank you for your reply Screamingdaisy. I do note that that the HiWatt Amps do seem to be quite rudimentary. A very back to basics approach. Yet remarkably expensive. I like Mesa's because they appear to be some what innovative. Are the electronics of the Mesa's inordinately complex? I mean are the a lot of computer chips and integrated circuits? They don't outwardly appear to be overly complex amplifiers. My VoxAD120VTH I'm sure would be tricky to work on as its a modeling amp with all number of bells and whistles. But I do get your automotive analogy Screamingdaisy. Maybe he's just a little set in his ways. Some people say steam engines are better than diesel engines

 

[screamingdaisy]

Electronically, Mesa's are still pretty simple. They just pack a lot onto a relatively small package. So far as I know the Triaxis is the only one with an IC, and it's a programmable preamp. Everything else uses mechanical controls and switching.

If you google pictures of Hiwatt and old Fender amp chassis and compare them to pictures of a Mark V you'll get a feel for the difference in complexity. Just don't expect anything that's as simple as an old Hiwatt or Fender to do the things a Mark V will do... and don't expect that tech friend of yours to work on anything more complicated than simple circuits.

 

[paddyhaig]

So if something were to go wrong like a component fail in a Mesa, then your saying due to its complexity it's comparatively more difficult to work on than other amps of its league maybe? This being why my amp fixer acquaintance doesn't want to deal with them possibly?
Would you say Mesa are a sturdy and robust brand? Do they hold up as well as the big names? I know the new ones come with a warranty.

 

[screamingdaisy]

A better question would be; do the big names hold up as well as Mesa?

 

[amrose57]

I've been gigging an Express 5:25+ for three years, and also have a DC2 combo (Vintage). Both have stellar reliability. There are guys on this site that have been gigging the same Boogie for decades with no issues. IMO Mesa makes some of the most bullet proof amps out there. On The Gear Page (TGP) there is one guy who constantly is railing against Mesa because he feels there's just too much "stuff" in there for it to be reliable. The tech I used in NC to do a mod on my DC2 for me has no issue with Mesa, and in fact they are one of his favorite amps next to Fender. My point is there is always going to be someone who just has an issue with a product, and looks like you've found the one who has issues with Mesa's. My 2 cents....

Al

 

[knotts]

Some good points previously mentioned. I bought my first Mesa in 2007 (first tube amp) and the only problem I ever had was when I replaced a tube and bent the pin in the tube socket. Even though I did it, it was covered under the Mesa warranty. I've been happy with my second mesa as well. They are made well and they stand behind their product. I won't go as far as to say that they are the greatest amps in the world, but it is tough to match their workmanship and customer service.

 

[OryCheyne]

Things fail. New Old, well used, or abused, even if they are wrapped up and put away for years then turned on once, they can fail. Electronics suffers from discrete random failures. Reliability is quality and I can safely say the Vintage Boogies are reliable and of high quality. Slightly over engineered relativity simple circuits, tested to be reliable before being packed and shipped. Great reliability hardening method and excellent for marketing.
From what I have experienced playing Mesa's for almost 30 years, the Mark and Caliber amps, I've never had either break unless it was at my own doing, tube failure, or bad venue power - where not only just Boogies' died.
The only true way of knowing which amps are more reliable is to look at the failure data. Unfortunately truly accurate failure data will be difficult to get
even if your the manufacturer.
Only time will tell whether the modern Mesa's will be as reliable as the old ones. So far my V is going strong but these days I'm not gigging, and it sounds like you are. Further more on account of injury mine won't be turned on for a few months.

So far as repairers favoring certain brands, isn't it just a personal thing. Does he only not want to work on new Boogies, or any Boogie?

bgood

 

[Hollis]

Mesa/Boogie amplifiers are outstanding. They have some of the best built, best sounding amps out there. They have some models that are quite complex and I'd imagine that they would be difficult to work on. However, you could always send the amp to Mesa if you had an issue. They have some of the best customer service in the amp industry imo.
As far as the trade between a Vox modeling amp and a Mesa Mark V:25 and 2x12 cab? You'd be crazy not to take that deal! The Mesa will sound infinitely better, is probably just as loud (or louder), and will have a better resale value.

 

[afu]

Vintage amps, all other things being equal, would be more prone to failure just due to the amount of time they've been played. If you have a player who clocks in 5 to 10 hours a week, every week, for 30 years, that's a lot of wear on an amp. Other considerations would be maintenance and abuse. Hauling gear in a truck, allowing tubes to burn out, or letting it remain dusty can introduce gremlins to the circuits. Care should be taken when choosing an old amp based on those sorts of things if the cost is high.

A newer, quality amp is less likely to suffer from mechanical failures, because it hasn't had the time to create conditions to cause it. Rather than thinking about ownership of one brand, or its vintage, choose a good sounding amp with a good reputation for quality and take good care of it, regardless of its vintage.

One last thing: when I used to buy a used car, I would run a finger under a hose in the engine compartment to check for oil leaks, since some people and most dealerships would degrease their vehicles. The same kind of QC check applies to amps, too. When looking at a used amp, check somewhere that might show what it looked like before it was cleaned up for sale. I like peeking behind front panel knobs and the ceiling of the head shell. A bit of dust is ok, but grime or (soda/beer) spills are a deal breaker (or leverage).

 

[YellowJacket]

A better question would be; do the big names hold up as well as Mesa?

My Dual Recto Rev F is still running and the only thing I changed are the tubes.