Upgrade Recto's transformer to Mercury or DeYoung?

[Core9]

Just ask yourself this;

Do you really think changing a MAJOR component that your amps signal goes through to a different design/build would have no real effect?

 

[Silverwulf]

wow this seems to go both ways... some say it makes a difference and others say it doesn't... it's about as close as the clinton/obama election!

:lol: I don't think it's a matter of whether or not changing transformers would change your tone. Changing any component in your signal path will make a difference, regardless of how small. It just comes down to:

1. How much of a difference?
2. Does it justify the cost?
3. Can you acheive the same results in a cheaper, less intrusive manner?

With that said, I don't think the difference is tangible enough to warrant shelling out $200 to $300 + costs for installation if it's done by a tech, risk voiding a warranty (if an amp is new), etc. The transformers that Mesa uses are perfectly fine. I could understand wanting to upgrade if you had an amp with a poor performing transformer, but that's not the case here. By using any number of things like different tubes, amp settings, EQ, clean boosts, etc...you will find the sound you're looking for, and you won't need a new transformer to get it.

 

[Charlie]

If you are going to be messing around inside your amp make sure you follow all the proper safety precautions. Discharging the caps etc..

I think the point Silverwulf is trying to make is that you should start with the tubes and other components before you perform major surgery on your amp. Definitely get a set of preamp tubes to mess around with - then power tubes, speakers etc.. Try the amp through a different cab as well. Maybe a friend has something different you can try out? Try a few different guitars with different pickups as well. A new output tranny should be longer down the list of things to try out.

 

[Silverwulf]

I think the point Silverwulf is trying to make is that you should start with the tubes and other components before you perform major surgery on your amp. Definitely get a set of preamp tubes to mess around with - then power tubes, speakers etc.. Try the amp through a different cab as well. Maybe a friend has something different you can try out? Try a few different guitars with different pickups as well. A new output tranny should be longer down the list of things to try out.

Exactly! There's so many little variables you should be looking at first, any number of which could get exactly the tone you're looking for. Changing transformers or having an amp modded should be the "break glass in case of emergency" last resort...and if you have to go that far to get the sound you want out of an amp, I would question if you had the right amp for you to start with.

 

[MusicManJP6]

I have to say that the last few posts have really cleared up the debate IMO. I was not seriously contemplating swapping my tranny but thought it was a good debate nonetheless. I agree that pedals, tubes, speakers, pickups, etc can vastly change the tone, and if none of that stuff works then it may very well be that said amp is not for said person.

Good thread...

 

[Boogiebabies]

Trannies do make a difference, probably more than many of you think.

Look at the early DR's. The ones that people point to as sounding the best had the Mark III tranny in them. The major chaneg in tone and feel happend when Mesa swapped to the current trannies.

I would bet that someone could swap the transformers in everyones amp here without them knowing and 99% of you would never even know the difference.

So 99% of us are tone deaf morons ? If you change the OT to a quality unit that has a broader frequency of operation, you will hear better lows, mids and highs whether your half deaf or not. It's that simple. The quality control for DeYoung, Mercury and Heyboer are superb. Getting a happy accident out of Dagnall or Shumacher is mostly luck, but can happen.

 

[Silverwulf]

So 99% of us are tone deaf morons ? If you change the OT to a quality unit that has a broader frequency of operation, you will hear better lows, mids and highs whether your half deaf or not. It's that simple. The quality control for DeYoung, Mercury and Heyboer are superb. Getting a happy accident out of Dagnall or Shumacher is mostly luck, but can happen.

Well, I never called anyone tone deaf, and again - change isn't always "better." What you view as "better" in a Mercury transformer or the like may not be as pleasing to another person. It's that simple.

So again, I stand by my statements, and I respect yours. Most people would never know the difference if their transformer was swapped out. You may disagree, and I respect that. I'm happy to discuss until we're all sick of talking about it. :lol: But, I don't want to see this discussion devolve into a flame war, so let's please keep it civil.

 

[LG]

Great informative posts fellas! I happened to stumble across this thread as I have a red belled Mercury Axiom and choke on the way. Should be here this week. Ordered from Patrick at Mercury yesterday. Great guy to talk with!I'm in a peculiar situation as my Mesa DR has been in the shop for a few months now with some components burned on the board. I love this amp and am a gain player but I am always open at attempts to take it just one notch higher. And if that don't work well than revert if possible. I am also a JJ fan and will replace all tubes when the tranny is put in. I wish I could do a "before" and "after" clip, but as I said my DR is torn down in the shop. When all is done-may be a while-I will be happy to post my experience and opinions.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

I look at it like this:

There are plenty of Trans Ams and Camaros on the road still from the 60's & 70's. Most of them still run great and haul ***.

However, if a major component like a transmission, were changed, there is a very noticable difference in performance.



Granted, there are some seriously tone deaf people out there with great amps. I just might be one of them.

I think the jaw dropping difference would be there if you used a Mercury or a Heyboer transformer.

I do think that speakers and tubes are the place to start though. Contrary to belief, this is not a cheaper place to start. Some speakers are $300 or more each, and NOS tubes are just plain stupidly priced. It is an easier place to start.


I've had an amp repair shop for about 8 years now. I've had the pleasure of working on many great amps.
The standard Soldano lead circuit (Avenger, SLO, Lucky 13, etc.) is very close in design and construction to a Dual Rec Red channel. Ask yourself this......

What is the major difference between these amps other than the obvious.

The answer is transformers. There are only a few parts that are different between the 2, yet 1 is great for Metal but is renowned for not having great cleans and the lead tone is just ok. The other sounds freakishly huge and wonderful for leads, although the cleans may not be that great to some people.

And before you chime in saying, "The SLO has mil spec components," none of their other amps do. My Lucky 13, after a very simple mod, had the same gain circuit as the SLO. The tone was hands down better than my Dual Rec ever was. It came stock with Mercury trannies.


In the end, no matter what anybody here says, it's your amp. If you've exhausted your simple options, the tube swaps and cab changes, and you still like the amp but think it could be better..........then **** it. Get the Mercury OT.


Another simple way to look at it is this.
If you love the amp, but are seeking a signature sound, then replace it. Keep in mind though, that most amps that have been modified will loose some of their value. Keep the original tranny. Play it with the new one for a few weeks. If you liked it better the other way, you can always sell the Merc and get most of your money back.

 

[LEVEL4]

A new output tranny should be longer down the list of things to try out.

Well, I would venture the opposing opinion. I'm STARTING with an output transformer upgrade to my 6505, and possibly my Recto and DC-3 later. Perhaps a poor example, but changing tubes in a 6505 is a little like arranging plates on the Titanic. An upgraded OT is the 6505's only hope of ridding it of its overly fizzy tone. I could say the same of my Recto.

I agree with Monsta, in that you could spend a lot of money on tubes and speakers with possibly only moderately different results. Try experimenting with a few sets of tubes, and for the money spent, you could have paid for a whole new output transformer. From what I've heard, a re-bias and an upgraded OT seem to make an enormous difference in the total character of the amp's sound. The kind of difference no tube or speaker in the world would make. If you know what a stock 5150/6505 sounds like, and then you listen to some of FJAmods' clips, there's a HUGE, jaw-dropping difference.

To use the automotive analogy, sure, you could bolt on some headers, tweak your engine's computer, and throw in a shorter rear-end to gain some minor performance improvements. Or, you could drop a forced-induction system in there, and DRAMATICALLY change the car's performance.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

Definitely keep in mind though, that crappy tubes and speakers will make any amp sound like ****.

You could run an SLO through a Marshall 1936 2x12 cab and make it sound like a Valvestate!


I think every aspect of your signal chain should go through prime quality components. The trannies on the smaller DC's are not that great and they saturated very quickly. I've had a 5150 & a 5150 II that were in serious need of an upgrade.

 

[LG]

Yeah Monsta I think our ideas are along the same lines. Why not take a great amp (SLO, Lucky 13, Mesa, Marshall) and have a stab at making it a little-or a lot- better sounding to the beholder and hopefully the majority. I think a great lesson here is Marshall. How long have folks been modding Marshalls?
And like we both said if that don't get the "HOLY SH%$T!" response then go back and try again.

 

[LG]

Hey Fellas here's a pretty good article that I found in an older post about output transformers. It pertains to Marshalls, but any information and experience can be useful when accurate and used apprropriately. My Boogie is still in the shop and I dropped the Mercury and choke off to my amp tech on Friday. I seen the small burnt spot on the circuit board and I'm hoping when he digs into it he can find the cause of the breakdown.Here's the link:

http://www.legendarytones.com/guitouttrans.html

 

[Monsta-Tone]

Right on, let us know how it turns out!

 

[camsna]

Best advice I ever got about output trannies. Andy Marshall of THD says:

"The output transformer is 90% of what's wrong with an amp and 70% of what's right."

 

[fdesalvo]

I'm also an advocate of experimenting, but before I started swapping xformers, I would want to see if warming up the bias would get you what you wanted. Most of that "fizz" can be alleviated by taking the amp out of crossover distortion. Resistors suitable for biasing are very inexpensive and easy to swap around. You could get your tone in minutes.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

:lol: :lol: :lol: I like being a mad scientist!!!!!!

 

[coppa]

Tube amps are like big old muscle cars they are big, heavy, loud and waste way too much energy, but nothing beats the feel.
If you love your amp and you love the glowing glass in the back its natural to get a hard on for wanting your amp the be hotrodded with some big iron. The bigger the better. :twisted:

To the original poster maybe wait and see how you feel about your single rec in a few months and then decide if you like it so much as to upgrade the transformer.

 

[Kaz]

This thread wins. And it's something I totally didn't consider before.

THANKS guys, now more avenues for my cash and time to disappear into.

 

[coppa]

anyone do this yet?.

Please post impressions of new transformer